Pinche Abogado said:

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Great take, Larry. The official narrative, however, is beginning to show signs of strain:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-report-concluded-covid-19-may-have-leaked-from-wuhan-lab-11623106982

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Where it originated has ZERO to do with how infective it was or how many people it killed. His point was that you and other idiots are saying this is the same as the flu, no it's not. It's worse, now it's not the plague either that some alarmist are saying but it's about 5 times more deadly than the flu. Also the vaccine is not dangerous, with millions of doses now given the adverse event rate is extremely low. It's not zero but people refusing it can't do simple math or understand anything about risk analysis.

bay fan said:

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It doesn't matter her sex, my point stands regardless who says it. The article she posted as proof menstruation was effected by the vaccine did not at all do so and I don't think anyone benefits from conjecture as it relates to the vaccine.

I am certainly sorry for assuming she is a man and I am sorry for any man who is offended I am apologizing for that assumption.

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That's the point. There is no proof either way. Many women are reporting it and now it's going to be studied. You know, science? You completely denied that it was even possible that this was happening and you made yourself an authority because you have ovaries. Silly. And then you tried to insult me because you thought I was male. Even more silly. Can men be gynecologists or are they unable to understand the menstrual cycle because they don't have ovaries?

It's okay for women who want children to hold off and see how things pan out. Their bodies, their choice, right?? If you've never been infertile then you may not understand not wanting to affect your cycle in any way. Have you been infertile?

All vaccines can kill or maim. That's well-documented. It's okay to admit that. People will still take the vaccine just like all of the others that are on the market. And some people will choose not to take it for various reasons. That's their right.

Neither here nor there, but it's interesting to see fear as a primary motivation for either pursuit of, or aversion away from, getting vaccinated.

Seen a lot about personal rights, conspiracy and infertility, social responsibility and collective moral obligation - but very little in the way of dispassionate common sense.

Guess it's just a by product of the year past and the age we live in.

Anyways, carry on.

You're not seeing dispassionate common sense because you're seeing the situation through your own filter of bias. An elderly or obese person taking an emergency use vaccine is dispassionate common sense. A young healthy person or someone who has already been infected deciding to wait or forgo vaccination is too. There are plenty of people who recognize the effectiveness of the vaccines but also recognize their lack of risk for the virus. Making a personal risk decision instead of feeling societal pressure or some other make believe obligation is dispassionate common sense.

Marcus Aurelius said:

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Well. I've read Pfizer and Moderna's studies that got them approved. I see no conspiracy in the science. And anecdote - since the vaccines were released - I've seen ZERO vaccinated patients admitted for covid issues. All those admitted now are non vaccinated. Including several under 50 who have died in last 2 weeks. Plus an 18 y/o who was sick as hell but survived. But. What the hell do I know anyway. Exhausting.

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To your point about relativity though, it's lost on me how one can look at the comparative statistics for side effects, morbidity, mortality, etc. between any of the shots and a natural infection course and view them as equal, even for a young low-risk demographic.

Setting aside the political hoopla that gets tacked onto the subject by mass media - fear of an unknown long term effect seems to be the most popular motivating factor against what otherwise is a large body of evidence supporting it's safer to get vaccinated than to not.

I've had this conversation with two young females in my own family and they perfectly freely admit their only reason for not getting vaccinated is fear of infertility, simultaneously acknowledging there is zero evidence to support those fears (quite the opposite) and neither are even trying to get pregnant. They seem fine with the contradiction so it sort of is what it is

Just a strange paradigm all the way round.

Pinche Abogado said:

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Great take, Larry. The official narrative, however, is beginning to show signs of strain:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-report-concluded-covid-19-may-have-leaked-from-wuhan-lab-11623106982

---

This isn't really relevant to any of the points i made but I've always considered the possibility that it resulted from a lab leak, because China isn't known to be truthful about things. My main point was there is a ton of misinformation about covid itself and the vaccines.

Fitch said:

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To your point about relativity though, it's lost on me how one can look at the comparative statistics for side effects, morbidity, mortality, etc. between any of the shots and a natural infection course and view them as equal, even for a young low-risk demographic.

Setting aside the political hoopla that gets tacked onto the subject by mass media - fear of an unknown long term effect seems to be the most popular motivating factor against what otherwise is a large body of evidence supporting it's safer to get vaccinated than to not.

I've had this conversation with two young females in my own family and they perfectly freely admit their only reason for not getting vaccinated is fear of infertility, simultaneously acknowledging there is zero evidence to support those fears (quite the opposite) and neither are even trying to get pregnant. They seem fine with the contradiction so it sort of is what it is

Just a strange paradigm all the way round.

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The vaccines have been in existence for barely a year. While it's unlikely there will be significant long term side effects, there's no way to know. Here in Texas we are down to roughly 1000 cases per day out of 29 million people. We can stop beating the dead horse. It doesn't really matter anymore.

Irwin M. Fletcher said:

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Pinche Abogado said:

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Great take, Larry. The official narrative, however, is beginning to show signs of strain:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-report-concluded-covid-19-may-have-leaked-from-wuhan-lab-11623106982

---

Where it originated has ZERO to do with how infective it was or how many people it killed. His point was that you and other idiots are saying this is the same as the flu, no it's not. It's worse, now it's not the plague either that some alarmist are saying but it's about 5 times more deadly than the flu. Also the vaccine is not dangerous, with millions of doses now given the adverse event rate is extremely low. It's not zero but people refusing it can't do simple math or understand anything about risk analysis.

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I think he was mainly using this as an example as some things change and we are still learning with the benefit of hindsight.

GAC06 said:

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Fitch said:

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To your point about relativity though, it's lost on me how one can look at the comparative statistics for side effects, morbidity, mortality, etc. between any of the shots and a natural infection course and view them as equal, even for a young low-risk demographic.

Setting aside the political hoopla that gets tacked onto the subject by mass media - fear of an unknown long term effect seems to be the most popular motivating factor against what otherwise is a large body of evidence supporting it's safer to get vaccinated than to not.

I've had this conversation with two young females in my own family and they perfectly freely admit their only reason for not getting vaccinated is fear of infertility, simultaneously acknowledging there is zero evidence to support those fears (quite the opposite) and neither are even trying to get pregnant. They seem fine with the contradiction so it sort of is what it is

Just a strange paradigm all the way round.

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The vaccines have been in existence for barely a year. While it's unlikely there will be significant long term side effects, there's no way to know. Here in Texas we are down to roughly 1000 cases per day out of 29 million people. We can stop beating the dead horse. It doesn't really matter anymore.

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A. Operation warp speed worked (a life-long developer knew how to crash a critical-path: crazy!)
B. The vaccine has done great things as far as reducing lethal infections and reducing its prevelance.
C. I'm primarily hearing of kids getting vaccinated at this point (the lowest risk and lowest reward population)
D. Long-Covid vs Vaccine side-effect crowds are effectively arguing the same point, but from their respective political corners
E. Protection of official narratives and message management have made truth difficult to ascertain regarding potential vaccine side effects.
F. The risk is dropping every day.

So, what does a conservative do when choosing between a low risk and an unknown risk? Make a personal risk-based decision. Not at all surprising to see healthy young Trump voters credit him while also passing on the inoculations.

Not getting the vaccine is just dumb. That's really all there is to it.

Furlock Bones said:

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Not getting the vaccine is just dumb. That's really all there is to it.

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Not having an optimal BMI is just dumb. That's really all there is to it.

This is pretty cool. Of course it doesn't prove vaccines were behind the pretty steady drop in deaths, but I've seen people believe much worse correlations on this board before.

After a year of plotting bad news, it's nice to plot some good news. pic.twitter.com/FndfGZZbER

— Kristen Panthagani, PhD (@kmpanthagani) June 9, 2021

traxter said:

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This is pretty cool. Of course it doesn't prove vaccines were behind the pretty steady drop in deaths, but I've seen people believe much worse correlations on this board before.

After a year of plotting bad news, it's nice to plot some good news. pic.twitter.com/FndfGZZbER

— Kristen Panthagani, PhD (@kmpanthagani) June 9, 2021

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Figures don't lie, but liars figure! You could make that wonderfully animated chart say a number of things to match a narrative. Kind of interesting that the two lowest points on the deaths trend both occur in July though.

I'd argue based on that graph that the vaccines have had little if any impact on the deaths considering the trend from last year at this point without vaccines is practically the same as the current trend with vaccines.

Eminus6 said:

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traxter said:

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This is pretty cool. Of course it doesn't prove vaccines were behind the pretty steady drop in deaths, but I've seen people believe much worse correlations on this board before.

After a year of plotting bad news, it's nice to plot some good news. pic.twitter.com/FndfGZZbER

— Kristen Panthagani, PhD (@kmpanthagani) June 9, 2021

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Figures don't lie, but liars figure! You could make that wonderfully animated chart say a number of things to match a narrative. Kind of interesting that the two lowest points on the deaths trend both occur in July though.

I'd argue based on that graph that the vaccines have had little if any impact on the deaths considering the trend from last year at this point without vaccines is practically the same as the current trend with vaccines.

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2021 worldwide covid deaths have already surpassed all of 2020.

Furlock Bones said:

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Not getting the vaccine is just dumb. That's really all there is to it.

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Welp, there you have it folks. This guy has it figured out.

Bassmaster said:

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Furlock Bones said:

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Not getting the vaccine is just dumb. That's really all there is to it.

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Welp, there you have it folks. This guy has it figured out.

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Yes I have and along with most of the developed world. so I'll say again, not getting the vaccine is just dumb.

Furlock Bones said:

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Not getting the vaccine is just dumb. That's really all there is to it.

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So is smoking. And both are choices people are free to make.

Furlock Bones said:

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Bassmaster said:

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Furlock Bones said:

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Not getting the vaccine is just dumb. That's really all there is to it.

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Welp, there you have it folks. This guy has it figured out.

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Yes I have and along with most of the developed world. so I'll say again, not getting the vaccine is just dumb.

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Trading a quantifiable risk for unquantifiable one is a subjective call. 18 months of hysteria, denial, and outright lies about the quantifiable risk followed by mocking dismissal of the unquantifiable risk is not persuasive. Being pressed by the hard sell and appealing to the same authorities that pushed the hysteria in dissuasive.

The same fearmongering whipped up by every anecdote of healthy people dying from Covid that feels like a prudent thing to consider while taking the vax works in reverse when you have anecdotes of healthy people with vax side effects and an unknown long term safety profile.

People are informed by their emotions that are purposefully being manipulated by people that will lie about this subject, censor those they disagree with, and intimidate you into doing what they want. As good as the data and science around the vax may be, you'll never convince people to take the word of a CDC that lets the AFT write guidance, denies natural immunity, and publishes blatantly false information about rates of cases. People identify with groups when they don't want to/can't dig into details, and the harder the sell from coercive people that you are prone to mistrust, the less you want to listen. Known liars will not persuade anyone even when they are correct.

I'm actually getting the first dose today, I'm neither afraid of the vax nor Covid particularly, but my employer is making it extremely inconvenient in pointless ways, so I'm not happy about that and it has burned a lot of equity. People in echo chambers can make themselves believe whatever they want, and PhD's and MPH's are no insulation from that effect.

Furlock Bones said:

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Bassmaster said:

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Furlock Bones said:

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Not getting the vaccine is just dumb. That's really all there is to it.

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Welp, there you have it folks. This guy has it figured out.

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Yes I have and along with most of the developed world. so I'll say again, not getting the vaccine is just dumb.

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I've been inoculated by mother nature. I'm good with my natural durable immunity. Not dumb.

chimpanzee said:

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Furlock Bones said:

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Bassmaster said:

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Furlock Bones said:

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Not getting the vaccine is just dumb. That's really all there is to it.

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Welp, there you have it folks. This guy has it figured out.

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Yes I have and along with most of the developed world. so I'll say again, not getting the vaccine is just dumb.

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Trading a quantifiable risk for unquantifiable one is a subjective call. 18 months of hysteria, denial, and outright lies about the quantifiable risk followed by mocking dismissal of the unquantifiable risk is not persuasive. Being pressed by the hard sell and appealing to the same authorities that pushed the hysteria in dissuasive.

The same fearmongering whipped up by every anecdote of healthy people dying from Covid that feels like a prudent thing to consider while taking the vax works in reverse when you have anecdotes of healthy people with vax side effects and an unknown long term safety profile.

People are informed by their emotions that are purposefully being manipulated by people that will lie about this subject, censor those they disagree with, and intimidate you into doing what they want. As good as the data and science around the vax may be, you'll never convince people to take the word of a CDC that lets the AFT write guidance, denies natural immunity, and publishes blatantly false information about rates of cases. People identify with groups when they don't want to/can't dig into details, and the harder the sell from coercive people that you are prone to mistrust, the less you want to listen. Known liars will not persuade anyone even when they are correct.

I'm actually getting the first dose today, I'm neither afraid of the vax nor Covid particularly, but my employer is making it extremely inconvenient in pointless ways, so I'm not happy about that and it has burned a lot of equity. People in echo chambers can make themselves believe whatever they want, and PhD's and MPH's are no insulation from that effect.

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I ham-handedly tried to express this the other day. Quoting to retain.

Furlock Bones said:

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Bassmaster said:

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Furlock Bones said:

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Not getting the vaccine is just dumb. That's really all there is to it.

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Welp, there you have it folks. This guy has it figured out.

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Yes I have and along with most of the developed world. so I'll say again, not getting the vaccine is just dumb.

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So is eating fast food.

So is going 2 miles over the speed limit (extra risk)

So is drinking alcohol.

So is using tobacco.

So is eating dessert.



Can all these things kill you as quickly as COVID? In theory no but the risk profile of doing all those things (which many many people do) is pretty similar to the risk of healthy people who don't get the vaccine.

Edit:

This brings to mind that meme of the fat person with a McDs bag saying to put on your mask.


You need to quit calling people who don't want the vaccine dumb unless you are going to go on a tour of lashing out on all unhealthy lifestyles. Be sure to get personal with people who have Type 2 diabetes b/c of unhealthy living too....

The effects of an infection from COVID aren't binary. It isn't simply living through it or death, right? When you compare "the risks" of COVID to other activities, looking only at death rate doesn't give the full picture. Smoking may not kill you, but it could give you decreased lung capacity and affect quality of life. It could give you stained teeth and bad breath, and affect your ability to attract a girlfriend.

Likewise, the risk of death from COVID isn't as high as the risk of losing smell/taste. Or the risk of developing lung damage from COVID, or even the risk of just missing work because you're sick, is going to be higher than the risk of death in the majority of the population.

If losing your smell/taste, or dealing with any of the other more common COVID side effects, is in your risk calculus and you're ok with it, then more power to you. All things considered, for me, I'd rather not lose my smell/taste, let alone risk the chronic symptoms that some of the board's posters have mentioned they have.

Also, if people don't get their vaccines because they are believing the flat out lies about the vaccine (sterilization, microchips, part of some giant subjugation campaign, etc), then they are dumb. I saw a protestor on TV saying the vaccine is the "Mark of the beast."

traxter said:

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The effects of an infection from COVID aren't binary. It isn't simply living through it or death, right? When you compare "the risks" of COVID to other activities, looking only at death rate doesn't give the full picture. Smoking may not kill you, but it could give you decreased lung capacity and affect quality of life. It could give you stained teeth and bad breath, and affect your ability to attract a girlfriend.

Likewise, the risk of death from COVID isn't as high as the risk of losing smell/taste. Or the risk of developing lung damage from COVID, or even the risk of just missing work because you're sick, is going to be higher than the risk of death in the majority of the population.

If losing your smell/taste, or dealing with any of the other more common COVID side effects, is in your risk calculus and you're ok with it, then more power to you. All things considered, for me, I'd rather not lose my smell/taste, let alone risk the chronic symptoms that some of the board's posters have mentioned they have.

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I will back off my risk calculations.

Ultimately, I am tired of people calling people "dumb" for not taking the vaccine. I am tried of people calling others "dumb" for taking the vaccine. We need to stop. IT IS NOT A BLACK AND WHITE DECISION.

Everyone chooses a risk level that they are comfortable with and make their own decisions.

Lets all just move along...

HCQ always worked. Ivermectin does also.

No Need.

planoaggie123 said:

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This brings to mind that meme of the fat person with a McDs bag saying to put on your mask.

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Texas stands at 45%/37%
On the high end Vermont stands 72%/62%
On the low end Alabama (no surprise) stats at 36%/29%

Just numbers - do with them what you will

Furlock Bones said:

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Bassmaster said:

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Furlock Bones said:

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Not getting the vaccine is just dumb. That's really all there is to it.

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Welp, there you have it folks. This guy has it figured out.

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Yes I have and along with most of the developed world. so I'll say again, not getting the vaccine is just dumb.

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I am immune and no longer need the vaccine. Thanks for beta testing it though. I would not get it anyway, since I have seen the data and the death rate is freaking LOW, flu like low for my age group.

Form for Employees Whose Employers are requiring the Vax

larry culpepper said:

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agsalaska said:

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gunan01 said:

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txaggie79 said:

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Pinche Abogado said:

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Not me or my family or my extended family. The vaccine is garbage.

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I certainly support your right to decline the vaccine. But am curious why you further state that the vaccine is "garbage"? At this point, hundreds of millions of people have been vaccinated, all three of the U.S. vaccines been proven to be highly effective. Why label them as garbage?

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It doesn't fit his forum 16 narrative to get the vaccine. He's an anti-Vaxxer tough guy. Not much reason to try and reason with those folks.

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That's not true.

Posters like that are common on F16 but I bet the vaccination rate on those posters compared to this forum and the general public are pretty close.

And Anti-vax is not the same as choosing not to get this particular vaccine right now.

They just yell a lot on forum 16.

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The folks over there are pretty bass-ackwards on this issue. The general consensus over there is that covid is no worse than the flu (even after a year of this) and that the deaths are fabricated. And that the vaccine itself is dangerous and should not be taken. I know plenty of people who share these views and it's troubling how many of them are out there.

At this point their views directly contradict overwhelming evidence on both the virus and the vaccine and it's 100% politically motivated. Their opinions should not be given any weight.

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Kind of a fun echo chamber for Gen-Xers who regret not having been born as Boomers.

Got it today - J&J... Basically got it for my career (won't go into the details). Been fine other than soreness of arm up until about 30 minutes ago (6 hours after shot). Things started going downhill. I have massive cold shakes & ache all over now but no fever. Took me 5 minutes to type this out with all of the shaking.

I Have Spoken said:

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Got it today - J&J... Basically got it for my career (won't go into the details). Been fine other than soreness of arm up until about 30 minutes ago (6 hours after shot). Things started going downhill. I have massive cold shakes & ache all over now but no fever. Took me 5 minutes to type this out with all of the shaking.

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Hopefully by late tomorrow you're fine and back to normal!

Pop a Tylenol and go to bed.

My symptoms were about the same and I felt fine the following morning (slight headache though).

Guardian Angel said:

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Form for Employees Whose Employers are requiring the Vax

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Geez, that looks like it was written by a law-school drop out. Some of the statements are clearly written to evoke fear in an employer, others with no understanding of the laws they're citing, and at least one of the citations of a judicial case is a false conclusion that wasn't from the case.

If you don't want to get the vaccine and your employer is mandating it, you always have the right to quit and find another job. No one is forcing you to work there.

Got the J&J yesterday at noon. No issues until overnight when I got the chills. Arm aches a bit this morning and I feel like I'm recovering from an illness. Muscles just feel a little fatigued.