Question re: vaccine, still have the antibodies

5,766 Views | 61 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by beerad12man
SoulSlaveAG2005
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BowSowy said:

SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

We are seeing high titers in donors who had COVID and then got the vaccine.

One donor I know had a titer of 2.0+ post infection
from July. After the first shot, their titer went to 21+.

For reference, the FDA classifies a high titer as 9.5+ based on the test we use. Very interesting data
I'd be curious to know whether you're seeing higher titers from people who had COVID and also got the vaccine vs those who didn't have COVID but did get the vaccine?


We don't get a good reading on the vaccine only crowd. Our antibody testing is specific to the antibodies developed from natural infection, those who just receive the vaccine don't usually test positive on our test. So we just see those who's antibodies increase post infection and shot.
DadHammer
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bay fan said:

I hope you choose to listen to your doctor. As rare as people here will scream it is, my daughters room mate had it in December and again 10 days ago in Dallas.

I have a very hard time believing that. She would be like 1 in 20 million.
bay fan
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DadHammer said:

bay fan said:

I hope you choose to listen to your doctor. As rare as people here will scream it is, my daughters room mate had it in December and again 10 days ago in Dallas.

I have a very hard time believing that. She would be like 1 in 20 million.
Of course you don't. It still happened. A doctor on here had a similar situation with a patient this week.
beerad12man
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Was it severe? Anything is possible. I'm not sure if the exact percentage of reinfections 3 months apart is 1 in 20 million or not, but it's highly unlikely.

Each individual is different, and there is no guarantee with anyone. However, I've read many articles about testing positive twice, and many aren't from 2 separate infections. Either false positives, or even more common, being incorrectly told they were free of the virus, and then the same infection popping up a couple months later. Your body just never completely fought it off.

But again, at the end of the day, the human immune system goes by general guidelines, but each individual can be unpredictable.
DadHammer
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Here is one study that was only for about 6-8 months showing very high immunity.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19

I will look for th either and post it also.

But yes anything is possible, but is that how you live? Fearing every day you step outside? When the real data says you r basically as safe as a human can be? You have limited time on earth, you better use the days you have and protect your freedom to your dying breathe.

Immunity 17+ years after infection.

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2020/07/28/immune-t-cells-may-offer-lasting-protection-against-covid-19/

There was also another study showing how super rare it was to get infected twice.
Muy
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BiochemAg97 said:

Muy said:

My doc just told me to not let this be a factor in my decision, and that the vaccine prepares your body to fight this. I said "I'm dumb but thought that's what antibodies are for". He said "you could have the antibodies forever".

Okay, very cool.

WTF is going on?

I'm waiting.
Here is the thing... infection leads to antibodies. Vaccine leads to antibodies. Vaccine may produce a stronger immune response (higher level of antibodies, which should last longer).

It doesn't make much sense to keep checking for antibodies and then hope to get the vaccine when you haters negative. Also, since you have antibodies, there isn't a huge rush to get the vaccine. But if you have your appointment, go do it.

At some point the Feds will stop paying for the vaccine. Better to get it while it is "free"


That's a great way of looking at it. This week is no bueno regardless as that would mean my 2nd shot would be right before a big trip my wife and I are taking on May 2nd, and I don't want to be in bed feeling like **** when it's time to leave.

Think I'll do the first round next week or the week after.
thirdcoast
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I've donated covid antibody plasma 4 times since getting infected last June. Antibodies still going strong, but bloodbank tells me they will no longer accept my covid plasma if I get the vaccine.

A) Fauci said durable immunity lasts at least a few years.
B) Confirmed reinfection almost non-existent
C) My personal antibodies have been trusted for almost a year at Gulfcoast blood center.
D) If I get the vaccine my antibodies are apparently no longer trusted or useful in treating other patients.

So if I get a vaccine it might only last 6-12 months. Plus it could potentially disrupt the effectiveness of my antibodies that probably last a couple more years?

Why are doctors so afraid of admitting that a covid recovery is generally better than the vaccine? All the evidence suggests that up to now. Are they worried about the anomalies or that most people aren't responsible enough to monitor their antibodies...so they decide to mislead?
Duncan Idaho
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That is interesting about them denying you plasma after getting the vaccine. I'd be interested in hearing Soul about that.
SoulSlaveAG2005
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Duncan Idaho said:

That is interesting about them denying you plasma after getting the vaccine. I'd be interested in hearing Soul about that.


I can write a novel on it.

Let me get through some eom stuff for work today, and I have tomorrow off. I'll post it up.

Also have a general update for all
DadHammer
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I too am interested in this.
SoulSlaveAG2005
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Alright -- I finally have some time to type.

In regards to the vaccine and Covid convalescent plasma (CCP) donation.

When the vaccines first rolled out, the FDA set guidelnes under the EUA for CCP that plasma collected post vaccination could NOT be labeled and utilizied as CCP. This is due to the nature of the immune response variation between natural infection and that triggered by the vaccine. CCP is also only authorized under an EUA and is very specific in what we are allowed to label and distribute/transfuse.

In Mid February - the FDA changed the guidance to allow for the labeling of CCP of those that were infected naturally AND had received the vaccine. However, they put alot of extra steps on the process. 1) the blood center had to know when the donor was positive for COVID19 by obtaining a copy of their confirmatory laboraty test. 2) They donor could not be greater than 6 months post infection, and 3) the center still had to do a qualitative and quantitative test on the plasma. Due to the complexity of collecting, compiling and storing this information alot of centers have just stuck with not collecting CCP from donors who have had the vaccine. They can still donate, red cells, plasma, platelets, we just can not label it as CCP for the use in treating covid patients.

In this time frame the FDA also revised the EUA on the transfusion side of when and how often physicians can transfuse a patient. They put the restriction that only high titer plasma can be utilized and narrowed the window as to when a patient was eligible to receive CCP.

These changes drastically changed the demand landscape for CCP. Where we were shipping 300+ doses per day in our service territory we went down to averaging about 30 shipments per day.

Because of this demand change, our blood center now has a strong supply of high titer CCP that could last us about 4-5 months at the current use rate. Blood centers have also been working with the FDA to establish a national stockpile, stored at local centers but shareable across the country in the event of another surge. Currently we estimate over 40,000 doses of CCP in the stockpile. This product has a 1 year shelf life in its frozen form, and must be transfused within 5 days of thawing.

Due to this shift, and the decrease in cases, our blood center stopped collecting apheresis CCP in mid March. WE are still testing all donations for antibodies, and any whole blood derived plasma that qualifies, we are segregating and storing in our freezer.

Our main driver for not collecting apheresis derived CCP is that we do not want to waste any donations. Other than patient safety, our highest priority is to be good stewards of the donations entrusted to us. Outdating products is a disservice to the donor that gave their blood (literally) with the expectation that we get it to a patient that needs it. The second driver, is that a a not for profit blood center, we have a financial responsibility to ensure stability in our community. Apheresis collection has a higher cost due to the medical machines that draw the donation, and the training/time in employees. Whole blood collections meet two of our needs in collecting a red cell that can be used immediately and then a plasma that we can either use as FFP if it doesnt meet CCP guidelines or as CCP later on.


Onto a general update: Right now the blood supply nationally is very unstable. Even after a year of adjusting to covid, we still are not able to consistently meet patient demands.

We actually are collecting more than we have in the past year, but we are shipping at 100%+ 2019 levels. Cancer patients, heart patients, OB, trauma and all other patient needs have not subsided but our ability to collect to meet that demand is still significantly hampered by business/school/church covid mitigation policies.

Historically we collected 60%+ of our donation from mobile drives. We had about a 70% first time donor rate and then would convert those donors to neighborhood fixed sites. Post Covide, we are collecting about 55% in our fixed sites and 45% in mobiles. The biggest issue is that we aren't seeing the first time donors like we used to, and we are missing out tremendously in the 16-25 year old range due to school closures, remote learning, or closed campus policies. Unfortunately, blood drives have been seen as just another extracurricular activity as opposed to the essential community operation that they truly are.

in Texas, the snowstorm didn't help anything by shutting down operations fro 5-10 days, depending on what area of the state you are in. Our blood center lost appx. 6000 donations during that storm that put us in a hole, we are still trying to work out of. With summer coming up, we are concerned that we will continue to be in a constant appeal mode just to meet daily demand.

Alright - thats my $.02 and update in regards to CCP and the general blood supply.
Duncan Idaho
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I don't understand why it took 2 days if you were just going to gloss over it.
Duncan Idaho
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Thanks that was insightful
SoulSlaveAG2005
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Duncan Idaho said:

I don't understand why it took 2 days if you were just going to gloss over it.


Technically just a day and a half..
thirdcoast
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Thanks for taking time to post that.

Do you have any idea or estimate on what 880mL of covid antibody plasma yields in terms of doses to sick patients?

Also, on average how many doses are administered to save a patient?

Trying to gauge the live saving potential of each donation.
SoulSlaveAG2005
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thirdcoast said:

Thanks for taking time to post that.

Do you have any idea or estimate on what 880mL of covid antibody plasma yields in terms of doses to sick patients?

Also, on average how many doses are administered to save a patient?

Trying to gauge the live saving potential of each donation.


Happy to help.

A single dose of Plasma is around 200 mls. CCP is in the same range, so when they draw 880 mls, they are drawing enough to split into 4 doses. The reason for the extra 80 mls is that some plasma stays in the line, and the splitting process is a manual process so a little extra is drawn to ensure each dose is 200 mls. Donation volume is based on the donors height/weight/hemoglobin level. 880 is the max we can draw in 1 setting.

Most patients received 1-2 doses, so a donation of 880 could help 1-4 patients. There are transfusion protocols for patients on how much plasma they can receive in general based on their blood volume and other factors. I'm not a doctor so I don't know the exact guidelines.

In regards to whole blood derived plasma, we get about 200-220 mls of plasma from each wb donation, and about 300 mls of red cells and 30-50 mls of platelets.
DadHammer
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Great info.

I went and gave blood before my vaccination.

If you give blood after being vaccinated could some of my blood help others develop some immunity? Curious.
SoulSlaveAG2005
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DadHammer said:

Great info.

I went and gave blood before my vaccination.

If you give blood after being vaccinated could some of my blood help others develop some immunity? Curious.


I'm not sure, as immunology isn't my field but I wouldn't think so.

Antibodies are stored in the plasma, when you donate we separate the red cells and plasma from
Each other. There is little to no plasma on a unit of packed RBC's.

There could be some passive immunity conferred to a patient who receives your plasma, but I would guess it is temporary.

The entire concept behind ccp was to provide passive immunity to the patient and give them a boost of antibodies to fight the virus and allow their own immune system to catch up and build active
Immunity.
DadHammer
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Cool
EyeBalz
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Go to the 12:10 mark in the video by Dr Peter McCullough, MD.

"There's no scientific, clinical, or safety rationale for ever vaccinating a Covid recovered patient."




SoulSlaveAG2005
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Just for reference in the collection, separation process. Here are some pics.






thirdcoast
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@soul thanks again, no way I could get this quality info online or from the bloodbank admin who takes my blood pressure then makes me confirm I'm not a gay drug addict prostitute each time I go in.

I'm up to 16 doses donated so probably conservatively 4-8 people potentially saved.

*I don't have the stats, not that it matters, but based on personal observations, I would bet that it's white people donating plasma at higher rate to help save those minorities disproportionately impacted by covid. Probably a story that will never ever be told with today's narratives.
Dad
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There was a doctor and immunologist on Tucker Carlson Today, Dr Hooman Noorchashm, that strongly advised against getting the vaccine if you have been previously or you are currently infected.

He said the rate of adverse events from the vaccine are much higher in those groups and there is no proven benefit because natural immunity is already very effective. He also advised against getting it while pregnant because there was zero safety testing done on that situation.

His recommendation was to get the vaccine, but to make sure you are not currently infected or that you were previously infected before getting it.
SoulSlaveAG2005
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thirdcoast said:

@soul thanks again, no way I could get this quality info online or from the bloodbank admin who takes my blood pressure then makes me confirm I'm not a gay drug addict prostitute each time I go in.

I'm up to 16 doses donated so probably conservatively 4-8 people potentially saved.

*I don't have the stats, not that it matters, but based on personal observations, I would bet that it's white people donating plasma at higher rate to help save those minorities disproportionately impacted by covid. Probably a story that will never ever be told with today's narratives.


Thanks for giving!

Statistically blood donors all around tend to be middle aged, and majority white, so it lends itself that the more specific group donating would follow the trend line.

It's a concerning statistic in that as our communities become more diverse, we need a more diverse donor pool. Blood types and compatability are a genetic trait, so as we get more diverse patients we need their geneticly similar groups to donate. Hispanics have a higher prevalence of Type O, and O-. Unfortunately their demographic only makes up around 5% of our donor base, and they are the most commune types of blood needed. Type O- is used in around 10% of transfusions as the universal donor.

African Americans have the unique ability to provide sickle cell neg blood for sickle cell patients that require regular transfusions just to lead normal lives. These patients receive so many transfusions that they develop antibodies and have immune responses build as a result of frequent transfusions. Having donors that more closely match their genetic make up, helps reduce those immune responses and make their transfusion therapy more successful.

beerad12man
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Dad said:

There was a doctor and immunologist on Tucker Carlson Today, Dr Hooman Noorchashm, that strongly advised against getting the vaccine if you have been previously or you are currently infected.

He said the rate of adverse events from the vaccine are much higher in those groups and there is no proven benefit because natural immunity is already very effective. He also advised against getting it while pregnant because there was zero safety testing done on that situation.

His recommendation was to get the vaccine, but to make sure you are not currently infected or that you were previously infected before getting it.


If you poll any 100 doctors, or medical experts, I'm sure you can always find some that will say this. Will it be 2-3 out of those 100? Or 50* out of those 100? I have high doubts.

From what I read, it seems that most docs still recommend it. And judging by the titer antibody response it seems there's still some protective benefit for it. Obviously if you've had it in the last two weeks no. But 6 months ago? It's a booster at worst
beerad12man
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EyeBalz said:

Go to the 12:10 mark in the video by Dr Peter McCullough, MD.

"There's no scientific, clinical, or safety rationale for ever vaccinating a Covid recovered patient."







I mean he may be right. It might be useless for the vast majority. And I sincerely hope he is right. It would suggest that our immunity is higher as a populace and be better for everyone

But souls post on this very thread would seem to be a good start in refuting that, no? Wouldn't it also be wise to determine time since infection? Surely most people can understand immunity can lessen over time. So why say it so matter of fact? We can't possible have the time to research if vaccines can help recovered patients a year or 2 after infections

We are seeing high titers in donors who had COVID and then got the vaccine.

One donor I know had a titer of 2.0+ post infection
from July. After the first shot, their titer went to 21+.

For reference, the FDA classifies a high titer as 9.5+ based on the test we use. Very interesting data
EyeBalz
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beerad12man said:

EyeBalz said:

Go to the 12:10 mark in the video by Dr Peter McCullough, MD.

"There's no scientific, clinical, or safety rationale for ever vaccinating a Covid recovered patient."







I mean he may be right. It might be useless for the vast majority. And I sincerely hope he is right. It would suggest that our immunity is higher as a populace and be better for everyone

But souls post on this very thread would seem to be a good start in refuting that, no? Wouldn't it also be wise to determine time since infection? Surely most people can understand immunity can lessen over time. So why say it so matter of fact? We can't possible have the time to research if vaccines can help recovered patients a year or 2 after infections

We are seeing high titers in donors who had COVID and then got the vaccine.

One donor I know had a titer of 2.0+ post infection
from July. After the first shot, their titer went to 21+.

For reference, the FDA classifies a high titer as 9.5+ based on the test we use. Very interesting data
On 12/31, one month after getting Covid, my antibody level was at 10 as measured on the LabCorp Semi-quantitative Ab test.

One week ago, after 3 more months, my Ab level was 30.

So, I see no reason to get the vaccine right now.
beerad12man
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Agreed. You don't need it. If you have access to run those types of tests to know your immune response. But I'm just referring to the population as a whole who may not know for sure what their immune response is.

I personally wouldn't get the vaccine a month or two after infection. But if it's been 6 months or so? I'd probably go ahead and get the shot. New data will come out, but I'll probably get a shot every 2-3 years, just depending. That might change if immunity seems to last even longer, or if covid practically goes away.
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