Coronavirus genome inserted Furin cleavage site?

8,165 Views | 38 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by AggieDruggist89
Bobcat06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Really interesting (yet long) article from medium about the genetic composition of the virus. I would like someone with more medical/biological background to weigh in.

https://medium.com/@yurideigin/lab-made-cov2-genealogy-through-the-lens-of-gain-of-function-research-f96dd7413748

TLDR summary:

Coronavirus has a nucleotide insert that adds furin, which makes it hyper transmissive. Furin is not present in bat nor pangolin viruses. The only relatives of coronavirus to have furin are distant genetic matches (36% match). However, researchers insert furin to coronaviruses on a regular basis.

Quote:


Oh, come on. Lab-made? Nonsense! Back in January, that was my knee-jerk reaction when ideas that Covid-19 is caused by a laboratory leak had just surfaced. Bioweapon? Well, that is just Flat Earth crazies territory. Thus, whenever I kept hearing anything about non-natural origins of SARS-CoV-2, I brushed it aside under similar sentiments. So what if there is a virology institute in Wuhan? Who knows how many of those are sprinkled throughout China.
Quote:

It is also interesting to see a rather unique identical mutation (QTQTNS) in RaTG13 and pangolin-2019 right in front of the spot where CoV2 has a new furin cleavage site. That furin site, as I mentioned, arose via an insertion of 4 new amino acids (PRRA). If we look at the nucleotide sequence around this insertion, we can see that RaTG13 and CoV2 are closer to each other in that area than to pangolin-2019, since they possess several common mutations (highlighted in blue):



Quote:

It is impossible to ignore the introduction of a PRRA insert between S1 and S2: it sticks out like a splinter. This insert creates the furin cleavage site, which I mentioned at the very beginning.

...

But not all proteases are equal, and not all types of cells have proteases needed by the virus. Furin is one of the most effective, and it is found not only on the surface of cells, but also inside. Most clearly, the danger of the new furin site is demonstrated by the difference between CoV2 and its grandpa, SARS-CoV.


Quote:

Here is a great illustration from the source article of the quote above. Coronaviruses with a furin site are marked in pink, 3 different strains of Cov2 are shown at 10 o'clock:




Quote:

The closest relative with a furin site is the HKU5 strain, isolated by the Shi Zhengli team in 2014 in Guangzhou from bats of the genus Pipistrellus (added to GenBank in 2018). But it is a very distant relative their spike proteins share only 36%.

So the virologists are puzzled. Where did this 12 nucleotide insert come from? Could it be lab-made? Well, virologists have studied furin sites in coronaviruses for decades, and have introduced many artificial ones in a lab. For example, an American team had inserted RRSRR into the spike protein of the first SARS-CoV back in 2006,

And the Japanese have inserted a similar site (RRKR) into the SARS-CoV protein in 2008, though a bit downstream than in CoV2.

In the same year 2008, their Dutch colleagues also studied these protease sites of SARS-CoV and compared them to the murine coronavirus MHV, which also has such a site (SRRAHR | SV), one that is quite similar to the site of CoV2 (SPRRAR | SV).

In 2009, another American group also worked on "improving" SARS-CoV and, continuing the American tradition of not penny-pinching on arginines, they inserted as many as 4 of them (RRSRR).

The most recent work of this kind that I came across was an October 2019 paper from several Beijing labs, where the new furin site RRKR was inserted into not just some pseudovirus, but into an actual live chicken coronavirus, infectious bronchitis virus (IBV).
Proposition Joe
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Marcus Aurelius
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I'm no virologist, but It seems obvious a 12 nucleotide add-on "mutation" conferring higher infectivity rates would not occur by chance.
Tom Cardy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I thought it was already pretty clear that this came out of a lab that works on viruses. Is this just further evidence to support that idea, or are there other implications?
94chem
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Read The Demon in the Freezer. Based on the hazards, I would guess that SARS Cov-2 is a level 3 virus according to CDC guidelines. If it isn't, then it should be. Here are the guidelines:

https://www.cdc.gov/cpr/infographics/biosafety.htm

My lab could do level 2 pretty easily, and there's no way I'd want that virus in there, although at 7 air changes per hour, it's a pretty safe environment. However, for people working with it on purpose, no way.

It's very easy to imagine this virus escaping from level 3 containment. Here is an article about the Chinese building multiple level 4 facilities. The article says that SARS doesn't require level 4.

https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487

The unwillingness of the Chinese to allow inspection of the facility is a big red flag, imo. Perhaps we could reciprocate. Either way, the thought of multiple L4 facilities is frightening. It is only a matter of time until we see smallpox, anthrax, ebola/Marburg, Lassa...

P.U.T.U
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Kick-R said:

I thought it was already pretty clear that this came out of a lab that works on viruses. Is this just further evidence to support that idea, or are there other implications?
The evidence has been pointing to the lab but the fact that is has so many unique mutations, especially to make it more transmittive, leads to believe the Chinese were working on a SARS based virus and making it easier to spread. I am not a medical professional but this evidence is pretty compelling.

There have been several reports about this lab not following proper safety protocol so it could have been someone got accidentally infected or they released it on purpose. Sadly with the Chinese I would not put either past them.

Knowing this information helps countries like the USA come up with the proper evidence to punish China, be it sanctions or restrictions. People want to go after China now but do not realize it takes time to gather evidence. Plus with China's hold on the worldwide supply chain it will take years to get manufacturing to other countries.
ElephantRider
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I think it's pretty clear that I don't understand what any of that means
Legett79
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Came here for the cleavage. Left disappointed.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Ag In Ok
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Legett79 said:

Came here for the cleavage. Left disappointed.


Whatever floats your boat, not that theres anything wrong with that:


Ranger222
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I do not understand why the author says the furin cleavage site sticks out. When only comparing the two virus strains that he does (one bat isolate + pangolin), sure it does.

But a majority of sequenced mammalian coronaviruses contain a furin cleavage site. Just look how much pink is in that phylogenic chart. This is not novel. It only is when comparing the two "closest" isolates. Same with the spike protein.

If anything, it shows that we have only scratched the surface in terms of the depth of coronavirus variety present....we are only 10+ years into having next-gen sequencing technology and only a limited amount of assembled genomes are present within our databases. Hard to draw many conclusions when only comparing a few strains of the vast amount that are out there we don't even know about.

Its like looking at an iceberg above water -- you don't appreciate the size of what is under the water. Same with only looking at the few complete genome sequences we have of coronaviruses.
oragator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Well the US intelligence community came out in the last day or so and said it isn't man made or modified. As have many other world organizations.
So unless the lab in Wuhan found it in the wild, were able to determine it could impact humans (would likely need to infect someone to know), didn't tell anyone, kept it for study and then somehow let it out, the whole lab thing doesn't make sense.

There is more than enough to blame China for factually, they completely shut down those whistle blowing, undersold the danger including almost certainly undercounting cases, bought up the worlds PPE and other needed things before they admitted how bad it was etc. But stuff like this only strengthens their hand and lets them look like the victim.

Jmo.
Cancelled
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Are we still debating whether this arose in a lab? Of course it did. I don't think it was intentional though.
Sq 17
How long do you want to ignore this user?
came here for cleavage and was disappointed
AggieFactor
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
This is what I feel like people are missing. No one from the government has come out and said it was "manufactured" in a lab, only that it came from the lab. I think the consensus from the intelligence community is that the lab was studying this virus in the bat species (that is not native to that area BTW) and their poor quality control standards allowed for a technician to become infected and then they believe they brought it to the wet market (not on purpose) and created the super spreader event.
BiochemAg97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
AggieFactor said:

This is what I feel like people are missing. No one from the government has come out and said it was "manufactured" in a lab, only that it came from the lab. I think the consensus from the intelligence community is that the lab was studying this virus in the bat species (that is not native to that area BTW) and their poor quality control standards allowed for a technician to become infected and then they believe they brought it to the wet market (not on purpose) and created the super spreader event.


Makes sense. I don't think you would try to develop a bio weapon in a lab that had the kind of access from the world that the Wuhan lab had. Not a good idea to let US diplomatic mission take a tour of your bioweapons facility. Better to build you bioweapons facility somewhere else that the world doesn't know about.
adairtexas
How long do you want to ignore this user?
There is a big difference between modifying and manufacturing the virus. I firmly believe that it came from the wild but was modified in the lab for study. Then it got loose. Now the coverup of what happened is another story all together.
oragator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
US intelligence has said it wasn't modified either.

https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/item/2112-intelligence-community-statement-on-origins-of-covid-19

So if it wasn't modified or created by humans, its paths into and out of that lab to be the starting point become increasingly narrow and unlikely. Unless we think that the lab was the random one in a million spot where the virus mutated and first infected humans. Not impossible, but also would be a pretty remarkable coincidence with all of the wet markets and other animal interactions that go on there.

It sucks, but sometimes bad things just happen that have nothing to do with evil actors, bad decisions, accidents etc. We have been overdue for one of these for decades, and now we have one. Thankfully this isn't as bad as it could be. Even the 57-58 flu killed over a million people, SARS killed more than 10 percent of those it infected etc.
BiochemAg97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
oragator said:

US intelligence has said it wasn't modified either.

https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/item/2112-intelligence-community-statement-on-origins-of-covid-19

So if it wasn't modified or created by humans, its paths into and out of that lab to be the starting point become increasingly narrow and unlikely. Unless we think that the lab was the random one in a million spot where the virus mutated and first infected humans. Not impossible, but also would be a pretty remarkable coincidence with all of the wet markets and other animal interactions that go on there.

It sucks, but sometimes bad things just happen that have nothing to do with evil actors, bad decisions, accidents etc. We have been overdue for one of these for decades, and now we have one. Thankfully this isn't as bad as it could be. Even the 57-58 flu killed over a million people, SARS killed more than 10 percent of those it infected etc.

Not really. The Chinese have been actively researching corona viruses in animal populations. This is part of an international effort to identify the next potential pandemic. Not much of a stretch to get from sampling bat populations to virus in the lab.

It also seems pretty clear that the Wuhan lab was studying viruses in live bats. It isn't really hard to imagine 1) some infected bat infected a technician in the lab, or 2) some lab tech handling a sample of blood/urine/? from an infected bat was accidentally exposed.

For all the people that insist an accident couldn't happen, there were at least 3 incidents of SARS infecting someone in a lab. For example, a tech in a US lab was infected with SARS because samples were mixed up.

Add to that, concerns that Wuhan Lab wasn't being careful with safety protocols, and an accident happening there is probably more likely than other labs.

I think most people believe it was not an intentional release, but rather than accident. The problem from there is the coverup by the CCP. That was intentional and entirely CCP playbook to save face and hide any problems. And of course, hiding mistakes isn't exactly unique to China. Watch the Chernobyl docudrama and how everyone downplayed the risk as they reported up the chain. And there are plenty of examples of covering up mistakes in business.
oragator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I don't disagree with any of that, of course there are scenarios where it could have happened, I just don't understand how they are the likely ones though.
If what we think we know now is really true, the virus leaped from bats to humans some time last year. Given that it wasn't created or modified, it is unlikely that it was existing and just happened to be "found" in the wild by Chinese scientists before this and just never happened to have infected anyone outside the lab.
If we take that as the starting point, there are likely millions or hundreds of millions of interactions of humans and bats and other potential intermediate carriers annually across the wet markets and other places there where they would be close enough to get infected, the odds that this made the first leap in that lab are slim, even if they had zero safety precautions and were studying viruses specifically.
If you are biochem then I assume you know a good deal about this - I am very much a numbers and probabilities person but not a medical one, so if I am wrong in that assumption I am happy to hear why.

But right now it just seems as if people are looking for someone or something to blame. Sometimes there just isn't anyone, **** just happens. I would be much more concerned personally that the wet markets get shut down, but maybe that's just me.
DTP02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Legett79 said:

Came here for the cleavage. Left disappointed.


Here's some Furyan cleavage for you, as well as a Furyan and some cleavage; hope one of them does the trick:

https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/ijs3xsDKA8JI_.zY97cyrA--~B/YXBwaWQ9eWlzZWFyY2g7Zmk9Zml0O2dlPTAwNjYwMDtncz0wMEEzMDA7aD00MDA7dz00MDE-/?crop=0.472xw:0.707xh;0.528xw,0.0389xh&resize=480:*.cf.jpg

Sq 17
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sadly I only have one star to give
Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I think you're wrong on your 1 in a million odds. Here's just one study from that lab titled "Serological evidence of bat SARS-related coronavirus infection in humans, China".

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs12250-018-0012-7.pdf

They had already studied a bat Coronavirus strain that was capable of crossing over that they had found in a cave. Here's more research they had done on bat Coronaviruses.

Quote:

Chinese scientists, researchers, and doctors examining the emergent 2019-nCoV Coronavirus report that the new viral menace appears to be "a recombinant virus between the bat coronavirus and an origin-unknown coronavirus. The recombination occurred within the viral spike glycoprotein, which recognizes cell surface receptor." But Prof. Zhengli appears to have worked with recombinant Coronavirus derivations involving viral spike proteins for over a decade at Wuhan Institute of Virology, all the way back to 2006 and up to as recently as December, 2019 the very month that 2019-nCoV Coronavirus was first reported as having infected visitors at Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market just down the road from her laboratory!

The day before the Coronavirus 2019-nCoV outbreak, this report was published. Do you believe in coincidences?
In fact, on the day before the new coronavirus would find its first victims just 8.6 miles away at the market on December 12, 2019, Prof. Zhengli and her team published the study entitled Molecular mechanism for antibody-dependent enhancement of coronavirus entry on December 11, 2019. The abstract reads,
"Coronavirus spike protein mediates viral entry into cells by first binding to a receptor on host cell surface and then fusing viral and host membranes. Our study reveals a novel molecular mechanism for antibody-enhanced viral entry and can guide future vaccination and antiviral strategies. This study reveals complex roles of antibodies in viral entry and can guide future vaccine design and antibody-based drug therapy."

And immediately after this study was published literally the following day the first victims became infected with what would soon be named Coronavirus 2019-nCoV began to get infectedjust a few miles away from Prof. Zhengli's laboratory. And as The Sun reports, victims of the new coronavirus are infected via a strong binding affinity to a human protein called ACE2," in precisely the identical manner as Prof. Zhengli's just-discovered "novel molecular mechanism" identified (or engineered) literally weeks if not days before. Do you believe in coincidences?
Let's say that's just a coincidence Prof. Zhengli published a study or two specifically on bat coronaviruses. Have there been others?

How much time you got? The above study, specifically relating to human host cell binding and entry of coronavirus infection, and published the day before the first viral infections were reported at a location adjacent Prof. Zhengli's laboratory, is far from the only study in which she has directed on the subject. The scientist's entire virology history is rife with hands-on experience with coronaviruses, with especial attention devoted to understanding their spike protein properties, as related to potentiality of human cell entry and infection. In June 2016's study, Bat Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome-Like Coronavirus WIV1 Encodes an Extra Accessory Protein, ORFX, Involved in Modulation of the Host Immune Response she writes that what was important was that bats "harbor genetically diverse SARS-like coronaviruses (SL-CoVs), and some of them have the potential for interspecies transmission." She further states that her team created a "reverse genetics system" that would be helpful for "study of the pathogenesis of this group of viruses and to develop therapeutics for future control of emerging SARS-like infections."

In a letter to the editor of SCIENCE CHINA Life Sciences published in November, 2017, entitled Cross-neutralization of SARS coronavirus-specific antibodies against bat SARS-like coronaviruses, Prof. Zhengli warns that severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV) is considered to be an emerging zoonotic pathogen crossing species barriers to infect humans, and that the spike protein of the virus' RNA genome plays a key role in human cellular entry.
In that same month, the results of a study Prof. Zhengli conducted, Serological evidence of bat SARS-related coronavirus infection in humans, China indicated that some SARSr-CoVs may have high potential to infect human cells, without the necessity for an intermediate host.

In 2016, one of the Directors at Wuhan Institute of Virology posted the annual Director's Message, of which the following finding was the top announcement: "The live SARS-like coronavirus SL-CoV-WIV1 has been isolated for the first time from the bat droppings; and such virus has been confirmed to invade the host cells through the ACE2 of human beings, civets and Rhinolophus sinicus. The research result has so far provided the most convincing evidence to the view that Rhinolophus sinicus is the natural host of SARS-CoV (Nature, 2013)." Does this not sound precisely like Coronavirus 2019-nCoV, which invades the host cells through the ACE2 protein? At any rate, since Prof. Zhengli is Senior Scientist and Principal Investigator of both the Emerging Viruses Group and the National Biosafety Laboratory, this is squarely her turf; the current outbreak seems amazingly similar.

In a study conducted in September of 2015, Two Mutations Were Critical for Bat-to-Human Transmission of Middle East Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus, Prof. Zhengli and team successfully achieved viral entry (bat-to-human transmission)of bat coronavirus HKU4 via its spike protein by performing two small mutations. Doing so also helped explain how MERS coronavirus was able to infect humans as well.

It was in 2015's study, Isolation and Characterization of a Novel Bat Coronavirus Closely Related to the Direct Progenitor of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus that Prof. Zhengli and team highlighted "the likelihood of future bat coronavirus emergence in humans" by isolating a new bat coronavirus closer to SARS-CoV in genomic sequence, particularly in its spike gene. "Cell entry and susceptibility studies indicated that this virus caninfect animal and human cell lines," they concluded.

And in 2010's Angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) proteins of different bat species confer variable susceptibility to SARS-CoV entry Prof Zhengli and her team of scientists "extended [their] previous study to ACE2 molecules from seven additional bat species and tested their interactions with human SARS-CoV spike protein using both HIV-based pseudotype and live SARS-CoV infection assays."

Even earlier in 2010, Prof. Zhengli published, Bat and virus, a keystone study identifying bats "as a natural reservoir of emerging and reemerging infectious pathogens," emphasizing that an astonishing amount (more than 70, at the time) and genetic diversity of viruses isolated from the bat have been identified in different populations throughout the world. She stresses that many viruses were found in apparently healthy bats, suggesting that bats may have a particularly robust immune system or "antiviral activity against virus infections."

In 2009's Immunogenicity difference between the SARS coronavirus and the bat SARS-like coronavirus spike (S) proteins, Prof. Zhengli and her team concluded "SARS-like coronavirus (SL-CoV) in bats have a similar genomic organization to the human SARS-CoV." And notably, that this work "provides useful information for future development of differential serologic diagnosis and vaccines for coronaviruses with different S [spike] protein sequences."

Prof. Zhengli's research in 2009's Differential stepwise evolution of SARS coronavirus functional proteins in different host species produced results that supported the hypothesis that "SARS-CoV originated from bats and that the spill over into civets and humans were more recent events."

Moving even further back in time to 2007, Prof. Zhengli worked on Determination and application of immunodominant regions of SARS coronavirus spike and nucleocapsid proteins recognized by sera from different animal species, producing assays that would be a "useful tool to trace the origin and transmission of SARS-CoV and to minimise the risk of animal-to-human transmission."

It appears that 2006 was the year Prof. Zhengli first researched recombinant spike proteins along with other distinctive genome sequences resulting from the interaction of bat, palm civet, and human isolates. "Full-length genome sequences of two SARS-like coronaviruses in horseshoe bats and genetic variation analysis." Basically, she is tremendously versatile and adept in her research whenever she encounters these recombinant spikes proteins in viral interactions.

Moreover, it's not just coronaviruses from bats that she and her team have discovered and explored, but also diverse novel viruses/virus antibodies in bats, including adenoviruses, adeno-associated viruses, circoviruses, paramyxoviruses, and filoviruses. In fact, Prof. Zhengli has coauthored over an astounding 130 publications on viral pathogen identification, diagnosis and epidemiology nearly all of which commandeered at Wuhan Institute of Virology where the National Biosafety Laboratory is located and where she reigns as Head of the Department. In fact, on the World Society for Virology website, Prof. Zhengli's profile confirms that one of her great contributions was to "uncover genetically diverse SARS-like coronaviruses in bats with her international collaborators and provide unequivocal evidence that bats are natural reservoirs of SARS-CoV." Thus, her adeptness in the specialized field of bat virology especially where transmission to humans is concerned is inarguable.

Such an expansive personal history of expertise into coronaviruses is not only impressive, but unique, and the bulk of her 30-year career at Wuhan Institute Virology seems to have been dedicated primarily to the examination and exploration of all facets of interspecies (though primarily bat) pathogenic infection of coronaviruses into human host cells. For reference, you can check Appendix A for the sum total of all her published (or otherwise unclassified or declassified) studies at the end of this essay. Prof. Zhengli's absolute mastery of bat-to-human transmission of viruses via their spike protein binding with human cell receptors is virtually conclusive and unrivalled.


http://archive.is/QIBmE

Ranger222
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
That quote reads like an excellent CV for a virologist

Not a mad scientist
Marcus Aurelius
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Shi Zhengli AKA "The Bat Woman."

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-chinas-bat-woman-hunted-down-viruses-from-sars-to-the-new-coronavirus1/

Been reading about her since this thing erupted. Predict she is culpable. Rumored to have infected pigs with SARS COV-2. Slaughtered them and fed them to other pigs. Those pigs got infected. Whether the virus escaping her lab intentionally or not is the unknown.

My opinion.
Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Ranger222 said:

That quote reads like an excellent CV for a virologist

Not a mad scientist


In the context of the assertions on this thread like this one?

Quote:

So unless the lab in Wuhan found it in the wild, were able to determine it could impact humans (would likely need to infect someone to know), didn't tell anyone, kept it for study and then somehow let it out, the whole lab thing doesn't make sense.


It's exactly what they were doing in the lab. The dismissal of an accidental outbreak from the lab is ridiculous.
94chem
How long do you want to ignore this user?
As soon as this thing hit, I asked my friend from grad school at UNC about Shi Zhengli, and the plausibility of the rumors. My friend is a PhD epidemiologist.

She did not respond. It's almost like there was a gag order.

Here's the article from February:

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/sudden-militarization-wuhans-p4-lab-raises-new-questions-about-origin-deadly-covid-19?fbclid=IwAR1eW4QKu589Rtz_HEMGgpZQLRPSjvp9HV5PoYYFVNeqeFmZonp3mL-pC8k
Ranger222
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
This woman and her lab is being made out to be a villain when there is zero evidence to suggest the problem originated from a lab. If people want to bring this claim they better bring it with evidence and so far there is none.

In fact, there is more evidence that it DIDN'T originate from her lab --


Quote:

Back in Wuhan, where the lockdown was finally lifted on April 8, China's bat woman is not in a celebratory mood. She is distressed because stories from the Internet and major media have repeated a tenuous suggestion that SARS-CoV-2 accidentally leaked from her labdespite the fact that its genetic sequence does not match any her lab had previously studied. Other scientists are quick to dismiss the allegation. "Shi leads a world-class lab of the highest standards," Daszak says.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-chinas-bat-woman-hunted-down-viruses-from-sars-to-the-new-coronavirus1/

Here is a group that is performing the EXACT type of surveillance research we need to halt the NEXT pandemic, and we are making them into a villain. We need MORE groups during this exact research, not trying to shut them down or pull their funding.

Quote:


Many scientists say the world should move beyond merely responding to deadly pathogens when they arise. "The best way forward is prevention," Daszak says. Because 70 percent of emerging infectious diseases of animal origins come from wildlife, a top priority should be identifying them and developing better diagnostic tests, he adds. Doing so would essentially mean continuing on a much larger scale what researchers such as Daszak and Shi had been doing before their funding ended this year.

People continue not to realize the vastness of the viral reservoir in animals like bats or birds, and the issues that can arise when we come in close contact.

I believe this is referenced in the above story, but takes a different tone and outlook here --
Quote:

In many bat dwellings Shi has sampled, including ****ou Cave, "constant mixing of different viruses creates a great opportunity for dangerous new pathogens to emerge," says Ralph Baric, a virologist at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. In the vicinity of such viral melting pots, Shi says, "you don't need to be a wildlife trader to be infected."


Near ****ou Cave, for example, many villages sprawl among the lush hillsides in a region known for its roses, oranges, walnuts and hawthorn berries. In October 2015 Shi's team collected blood samples from more than 200 residents in four of those villages. It found that six people, or nearly 3 percent, carried antibodies against SARS-like coronaviruses from batseven though none of them had handled wildlife or reported SARS-like or other pneumonialike symptoms. Only one had traveled outside of Yunnan prior to the sampling, and all said they had seen bats flying in their village.

This shows how easy and prevalent these transmission events are to just common people. No lab is needed.

Or not even contact with bats, but with other animals that could serve as a "middle-man" to jump between animals and humans, which has always been the biggest fear.


Quote:

In any case, Shi says, "wildlife trade and consumption are only part of problem." In late 2016 pigs across four farms in Qingyuan County in Guangdong60 miles from the site where the SARS outbreak originatedsuffered from acute vomiting and diarrhea, and nearly 25,000 of the animals died. Local veterinarians could not detect any known pathogen and called Shi for help. The cause of the illnessswine acute diarrhea syndrome (SADS)turned out to be a virus whose genomic sequence was 98 percent identical to that of a coronavirus found in horseshoe bats in a nearby cave.

"This is a serious cause for concern," says Gregory Gray, an infectious disease epidemiologist at Duke University. Pigs and humans have very similar immune systems, making it easy for viruses to cross between the two species. Moreover, a team at Zhejiang University in the Chinese city of Hangzhou found that the SADS virus could infect cells from many organisms in a petri dish, including rodents, chickens, nonhuman primates and humans.

Its very clear these type of transmission events are common, and we need to learn from this and get the jump now on further characterizing these viruses and where the next threat will come from. Or, when this event finally goes away, not pull funding on projects that were ongoing after the original SARS outbreak that could have provided us with better antivirals against coronaviruses or a broad-based coronavirus vaccine that we certainly could use now. We basically canceled our car insurance because we haven't had a wreck in ten years and now we've had a wreck with no insurance. Not smart. These type of villain portrayals of researchers doing honest work will only prevent funding for the type of surveillance and preventive work that is needed. Politicians will get in the way and prevent funding or working on these viruses thinking they are preventing the next lab outbreak when they are only leaving us vulnerable fo the next outbreak to occur from a viral pathogen we have no knowledge about.
Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
That was the study I linked, which had an interesting control group.

Quote:

As a control, we also collected 240 serum samples from random blood donors in 2015 in Wuhan, Hubei Province more than 1000 km away from Jinning (Fig. 1A) and where inhabitants have a much lower likelihood of contact with bats due to its urban setting.


As far as the lab's safety measures, I'll take the word of our own diplomats who witnessed first-hand:

Quote:

Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats. The cables have fueled discussions inside the U.S. government about whether this or another Wuhan lab was the source of the virus even though conclusive proof has yet to emerge.
In January 2018, the U.S. Embassy in Beijing took the unusual step of repeatedly sending U.S. science diplomats to the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), which had in 2015 become China's first laboratory to achieve the highest level of international bioresearch safety (known as BSL-4). WIV issued a news release in English about the last of these visits, which occurred on March 27, 2018. The U.S. delegation was led by Jamison Fouss, the consul general in Wuhan, and Rick Switzer, the embassy's counselor of environment, science, technology and health. Last week, WIV erased that statement from its website, though it remains archived on the Internet.

What the U.S. officials learned during their visits concerned them so much that they dispatched two diplomatic cables categorized as Sensitive But Unclassified back to Washington. The cables warned about safety and management weaknesses at the WIV lab and proposed more attention and help. The first cable, which I obtained, also warns that the lab's work on bat coronaviruses and their potential human transmission represented a risk of a new SARS-like pandemic.

"During interactions with scientists at the WIV laboratory, they noted the new lab has a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory," states the Jan. 19, 2018, cable, which was drafted by two officials from the embassy's environment, science and health sections who met with the WIV scientists.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/
plain_o_llama
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Perhaps the virus escaped after a baggage handling accident:

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3043167/chinese-researcher-accused-trying-smuggle-vials-biological

A Chinese medical researcher was arrested in Boston earlier this month on suspicion of trying to take stolen biological samples back to China, according to an affidavit by an FBI agent.


According to the agent's testimony, published with redactions on Universal Hub, a community news and information site for the Boston area, Zheng Zaosong, 29, was questioned at Logan International Airport on December 9.

FBI Special Agent Kara Spice said 21 wrapped vials containing a "brown liquid" that appeared to be "biological material" were found in a sock during an inspection of his checked baggage.


At least others used carry-on for transporting their vials into the US

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/border-patrol-stopped-a-chinese-biologist-carrying-viable-sars-mers-viruses-at-detroit-airport-in-2018/

U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers at Detroit Metro Airport stopped a Chinese scientist carrying vials believed to contain the MERS and SARS viruses in November 2018 just over a year before the first reported Wuhan coronavirus case, according to an FBI tactical intelligence report obtained by Yahoo News.

"Inspection of the writing on the vials and the stated recipient led inspection personnel to believe the materials contained within the vials may be viable Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) and Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) materials," the report reads. The vials were labeled "Antibodies", and the unnamed scientist said he was asked to deliver them to a researcher at a U.S. institute.

The report also lays out a pattern of Chinese interference, detailing two other cases from May 2018 and September 2019, in which different Chinese nationals tried to enter the U.S. with undeclared flu strains and suspected E. coli, respectively.


Anyone know this side of the Immunology/Virology Research world? Are they stealing technology, skirting import/export laws, or something else?
94chem
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Ranger222 said:

This woman and her lab is being made out to be a villain when there is zero evidence to suggest the problem originated from a lab. If people want to bring this claim they better bring it with evidence and so far there is none.

In fact, there is more evidence that it DIDN'T originate from her lab --


Quote:

Back in Wuhan, where the lockdown was finally lifted on April 8, China's bat woman is not in a celebratory mood. She is distressed because stories from the Internet and major media have repeated a tenuous suggestion that SARS-CoV-2 accidentally leaked from her labdespite the fact that its genetic sequence does not match any her lab had previously studied. Other scientists are quick to dismiss the allegation. "Shi leads a world-class lab of the highest standards," Daszak says.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-chinas-bat-woman-hunted-down-viruses-from-sars-to-the-new-coronavirus1/

Here is a group that is performing the EXACT type of surveillance research we need to halt the NEXT pandemic, and we are making them into a villain. We need MORE groups during this exact research, not trying to shut them down or pull their funding.

Quote:


Many scientists say the world should move beyond merely responding to deadly pathogens when they arise. "The best way forward is prevention," Daszak says. Because 70 percent of emerging infectious diseases of animal origins come from wildlife, a top priority should be identifying them and developing better diagnostic tests, he adds. Doing so would essentially mean continuing on a much larger scale what researchers such as Daszak and Shi had been doing before their funding ended this year.

People continue not to realize the vastness of the viral reservoir in animals like bats or birds, and the issues that can arise when we come in close contact.

I believe this is referenced in the above story, but takes a different tone and outlook here --
Quote:

In many bat dwellings Shi has sampled, including ****ou Cave, "constant mixing of different viruses creates a great opportunity for dangerous new pathogens to emerge," says Ralph Baric, a virologist at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. In the vicinity of such viral melting pots, Shi says, "you don't need to be a wildlife trader to be infected."


Near ****ou Cave, for example, many villages sprawl among the lush hillsides in a region known for its roses, oranges, walnuts and hawthorn berries. In October 2015 Shi's team collected blood samples from more than 200 residents in four of those villages. It found that six people, or nearly 3 percent, carried antibodies against SARS-like coronaviruses from batseven though none of them had handled wildlife or reported SARS-like or other pneumonialike symptoms. Only one had traveled outside of Yunnan prior to the sampling, and all said they had seen bats flying in their village.

This shows how easy and prevalent these transmission events are to just common people. No lab is needed.

Or not even contact with bats, but with other animals that could serve as a "middle-man" to jump between animals and humans, which has always been the biggest fear.


Quote:

In any case, Shi says, "wildlife trade and consumption are only part of problem." In late 2016 pigs across four farms in Qingyuan County in Guangdong60 miles from the site where the SARS outbreak originatedsuffered from acute vomiting and diarrhea, and nearly 25,000 of the animals died. Local veterinarians could not detect any known pathogen and called Shi for help. The cause of the illnessswine acute diarrhea syndrome (SADS)turned out to be a virus whose genomic sequence was 98 percent identical to that of a coronavirus found in horseshoe bats in a nearby cave.

"This is a serious cause for concern," says Gregory Gray, an infectious disease epidemiologist at Duke University. Pigs and humans have very similar immune systems, making it easy for viruses to cross between the two species. Moreover, a team at Zhejiang University in the Chinese city of Hangzhou found that the SADS virus could infect cells from many organisms in a petri dish, including rodents, chickens, nonhuman primates and humans.

Its very clear these type of transmission events are common, and we need to learn from this and get the jump now on further characterizing these viruses and where the next threat will come from. Or, when this event finally goes away, not pull funding on projects that were ongoing after the original SARS outbreak that could have provided us with better antivirals against coronaviruses or a broad-based coronavirus vaccine that we certainly could use now. We basically canceled our car insurance because we haven't had a wreck in ten years and now we've had a wreck with no insurance. Not smart. These type of villain portrayals of researchers doing honest work will only prevent funding for the type of surveillance and preventive work that is needed. Politicians will get in the way and prevent funding or working on these viruses thinking they are preventing the next lab outbreak when they are only leaving us vulnerable fo the next outbreak to occur from a viral pathogen we have no knowledge about.



I'm not questioning the credentials, intentions, or the merit of her work. Fundamentally, I am questioning the ability and determination of the Chinese to properly contain level 3 and level 4 biohazards, and what appears to be their reticence to be open with the international community.

I strongly agree that the understanding and research of all kinds of pathogens is of critical importance, and this causes a number of ethical, safety, and national concerns regarding use and intentions.

One point I'd like to add is that I don't think the average person with a bachelor's degree understands just how few Americans there are doing the doctoral and post-doctoral research at even our Tier 1 institutions. The amount of money that the NSF, NIH, DOE, and private dollars used to educate Chinese nationals who then go home and use their new skills to compete against us is astounding. In cases like this Wuhan lab, this actually should work to our benefit, having boots on the ground in a recurrent Hot Zone. In other cases, like with Huawei, it isn't so good. Even if the foreign nationals come with funding from their own government, they still get a free relationship with prestigious US professors. The answer given by most Americans when they hear this is "pull funding."

Again, ethical minefields don't quite lend themselves to such black and white decisions...even with Trump as president...even if it would make you sleep better
Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I was looking at that over the weekend.

Total A&M (College Station Campus) Doctoral Enrollment
Spring 2020 - 4,702
Spring 2010 - 3,588
Spring 2000 - 2,846

Residence Outside US
Spring 2020 - 2,440
Spring 2010 - 1,611
Spring 2000 - 1,116
BiochemAg97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Que Te Gusta Mas said:

I was looking at that over the weekend.

Total A&M (College Station Campus) Doctoral Enrollment
Spring 2020 - 4,702
Spring 2010 - 3,588
Spring 2000 - 2,846

Residence Outside US
Spring 2020 - 2,440
Spring 2010 - 1,611
Spring 2000 - 1,116
Would be interesting to see that broken down by college/ department. I would guess engineering is pretty heavy and less in other areas.
94chem
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Que Te Gusta Mas said:

I was looking at that over the weekend.

Total A&M (College Station Campus) Doctoral Enrollment
Spring 2020 - 4,702
Spring 2010 - 3,588
Spring 2000 - 2,846

Residence Outside US
Spring 2020 - 2,440
Spring 2010 - 1,611
Spring 2000 - 1,116


Now start looking at places like U of H or Texas Tech.
Fat Black Swan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Engineering
Total - 1,710
Residence Outside US - 1,233
94chem
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quote:

Anyone know this side of the Immunology/Virology Research world? Are they stealing technology, skirting import/export laws, or something else?


Probably trying to avoid 12 -18 months of bureaucratic red tape. The samples likely have no economic value. IDK.
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.