The oxygen/hemoglobin dissociation curve..

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Marcus Aurelius
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AG


So let's talk some basic pulmonary physiology here so we can communicate better on this forum. In arterial blood, 98.5% of O2 is bound to hemoglobin Hgb. It contains a porphyrin structure containing iron in its center which binds to O2. 1.5% of O2 dissolved in blood is not bound to Hgb. This is known as PO2. O2 sat % is the amount of hemoglobin with O2 bound to it. With a healthy person this is usually around 99%.

O2 binds to Hgb in the deoxygenated pulmonary arterioles as it is absorbed in the pulmonary alveoli. Hgb carries O2 peripherally thru the arterial blood supply to tissue were it is delivered/unloaded for oxidative phosphorylation or energy metabolism.

The relationship of PO2 to Hgb saturation has been thoroughly described. This is known as the O2/Hgb dissociation curve. Shown above. If one plots PO2 on X-axis and Hgb saturation on Y-axis, there is a sigmoidal shape to the curve. The critical level of PO2 is 60 mm Hg or 90% saturation. Below PO2 60mm Hg there is a precipitous decline in Hgb saturation %. Hence it is why it is so important in oxygen therapy to keep PO2> 60. Above PO2 60, the Hgb saturation curve is flat. Hence there is no need to drive PO2 > 80-90 mm Hg, as Hgb sat % peaks at 100%.

Certain disease states can shift the curve left and right. Shown above. Carboxy Hgb or carbon monoxide poisoning is a classic example of shifting the curve left. Hgb binds more avidly to O2 and less O2 is delivered peripherally to tissues, leading to peripheral ischemia. Sepsis is a classic example of the curve shifting to the right, unloading O2 easier peripherally during stress.

In COVID-19 patients PO2 is low due to pulmonary type 2 cell injury, inflammation and ARDS like physiology as we've discussed. I theorize that if COVID-19 is interfering with porphyrin O2 binding it is doing its damage peripherally in tissues and organs. Not in the lung primarily. Hence shifting the curve left, when it should be shifted right.

Hope that helps to understand.
Patentmike
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Marcus Aurelius said:



So let's talk some basic pulmonary physiology here so we can communicate better on this forum. In arterial blood, 98.5% of O2 is bound to hemoglobin Hgb. It contains a porphyrin structure containing iron in its center which binds to O2. 1.5% of O2 dissolved in blood is not bound to Hgb. This is known as PO2. O2 sat % is the amount of hemoglobin with O2 bound to it. With a healthy person this is usually around 99%.

The relationship of PO2 to Hgb saturation has been thoroughly described. This is known as the O2/Hgb dissociation curve. Shown above. If one plots PO2 on X-axis and Hgb saturation on Y-axis, there is a sigmoidal shape to the curve. The critical level of PO2 is 60 mm Hg or 90% saturation. Below PO2 60mm Hg there is a precipitous decline in Hgb saturation %. Hence it is why it is so important in oxygen therapy to keep PO2> 60. Above PO2 60, the Hgb saturation curve is flat. Hence there is no need to drive PO2 > 80-90 mm Hg, as Hgb sat % peaks at 100%.

Certain disease states can shift the curve left and right. Shown above. Carboxy Hgb or carbon monoxide poisoning is a classic example of shifting the curve left. Hgb binds more avidly to O2 and less O2 is delivered peripherally to tissues, leading to peripheral ischemia. Sepsis is a classic example of the curve shifting to the right, unloading O2 easier peripherally during stress.

In COVID-19 patients PO2 is low due to pulmonary type 2 cell injury, inflammation and ARDS like physiology as we've discussed. I theorize that if COVID-19 is interfering with porphyrin O2 binding it is doing so peripherally in tissues and organs. Not in the lung primarily. Hence shifting the curve left, when it should be shifted right.

Hope that helps understand.
Is anyone checking blood pH? Perhaps the issues are in part due to poor CO2 transport out of the organs, etc.
PatentMike, J.D.
BS Biochem
MS Molecular Virology


dermdoc
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And that is why hydroxychloroquine works because we use it for porphyria. And I wonder about taking blood out of coronavirus patients and putting unaffected blood in?
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Change Detection
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When you say COVID-19 is interfering with porphyrin O2 binding, are you saying that is binds more avidly to O2 and thus less is delivered to tissues or that it doesn't bind as well?






Ken Adams
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This made me feel like I did reading a text book in college. Nodding my head along until I got to the end and thought "what did I just read?"
Marcus Aurelius
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Theorizing. COVID-19 binds to porphyrin thus shifting the dissociation curve left. Hence less tissue oxygenation, i.e. organ failure.
Marcus Aurelius
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Arterial blood gas. ABG. Drawn on these critical pts frequently. ABG consists mainly of pH, PCO2, PO2 and O2 sats. Normal 7.4/40/90/99%. Pulse oximetry measures O2 Hgb saturation by shining a laser thru tissue like a finger. O2 bound to Hgb refracts the laser to a different degree, depending on amount bound. The sensor on other side of finger detects amount of refraction. A plot of normal O2 Hgb refraction range has been described and the pulse ox displays the correct O2 Hgb saturation.
jpb1999
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Doesn't this lend credence to the article talking about the virus attacking the hemoglobin and not the lungs and this is why chloroquine is working?
Marcus Aurelius
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It certainly is attacking the lungs. Terribly in cytokine storm. Type 2 cell injury leading to ARDS. Hence PO2 is low. But if it is attacking Hgb it is effecting peripheral tissues. IMO. I havent seen co-oximetry data on these patients. Co-oximeters measure all Hgb species - O2/Hgb and others (COHgb, FetalHgb etc). We don't have a COVID-19/Hgb assay. But the PO2/Hgb sats would be discordant to the curve I showed if COVID-19 was binding to Hgb. I have not seen that in these pts. Highly complex. Needs research.
Marcus Aurelius
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HCQ,Quinine, methylene blue etc shift the curve right. Also by shifting iron from its oxidized ferric F3+ state to its reduced ferrous F2+ state, thereby easing O2 unloading peripherally.
jpb1999
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It's damaging the lungs but it's more peripheral damage from the iron release in the hemoglobin.

I stayed at a holiday inn express last night...
ham98
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Even though I'm not a medical professional can I get CE credit for this?
jpb1999
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I already have this thread logged for mine... CE here also!
cone
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I thought the utility of HCQ was early on

but the time your O2 is dropping it's not really useful
Marcus Aurelius
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dermdoc said:

And that is why hydroxychloroquine works because we use it for porphyria. And I wonder about taking blood out of coronavirus patients and putting unaffected blood in?
A very interesting idea. Like the treatment for sickle cell crisis. RBC exchange. Hmmmm. Needs research.
Marcus Aurelius
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Agreed. I was just highlighting HCQs known effects on O2/Hgb physiology. There's the ionophore / zinc theory to diminish viral replication as well with HCQ.
ham98
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dermdoc said:

And that is why hydroxychloroquine works because we use it for porphyria. And I wonder about taking blood out of coronavirus patients and putting unaffected blood in?
What if you have a person prophylactically take HCQ and then donate using their blood to replace in the infected?
dermdoc
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ham98 said:

dermdoc said:

And that is why hydroxychloroquine works because we use it for porphyria. And I wonder about taking blood out of coronavirus patients and putting unaffected blood in?
What if you have a person prophylactically take HCQ and then donate using their blood to replace in the infected?


That is not how it works. You have to develop antibodies to help anyone.
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ham98
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I was thinking it might help the newly introduced blood more resistant to attack while also giving the patient better oxygenation from fresh blood but I am also a layman who is likely misunderstanding a part of the process.
I Like Mike
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Good Lord it's like I'm reading a page in a foreign language....What?!
Krautag81
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Wow, I really respect these people...good explanations I think. Good job!
slacker00
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It wouldn't be practical for universal treatments due to lack of Chambers and other logistics, but for studying cause and effect has anyone looked at hyperbaric treatments? The increased pressures allows for higher dissolved oxygen levels in the blood.
oneeyedag
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ham98 said:

Even though I'm not a medical professional can I get CE credit for this?


Dr. Marcus is going to sign off on your 0.00075 CE hours. Welcome to the medical field
oneeyedag
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ham98 said:

dermdoc said:

And that is why hydroxychloroquine works because we use it for porphyria. And I wonder about taking blood out of coronavirus patients and putting unaffected blood in?
What if you have a person prophylactically take HCQ and then donate using their blood to replace in the infected?


Plasma the water portion of your blood and the antibodies is what's needed from fully recovered patients.
94chem
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Marcus Aurelius said:

dermdoc said:

And that is why hydroxychloroquine works because we use it for porphyria. And I wonder about taking blood out of coronavirus patients and putting unaffected blood in?
A very interesting idea. Like the treatment for sickle cell crisis. RBC exchange. Hmmmm. Needs research.


I thought that sickle cell was a rogue gene that originally helped protect against malaria. I've been wondering for a few weeks if Covid-19 might affect African Americans differently, since I saw anti-malarial drugs being used. Any connection?
lb3
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Marcus Aurelius
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Yes fascinating. But AA patients in USA clearly doing worse. The geographic distributions of malaria and hemoglobinopathies including a-thalassemia, G6PD deficiency, and ovalocytosis, correlate to higher black individuals and are associated with malaria resistance. There is also a striking geographical difference for a mutation in the Duffy antigen gene (FY), which encodes a membrane protein used by the Plasmodium vivax malaria parasite to enter red blood cells. This mutation disrupts the protein, thus conferring protection against P. vivax malaria, and it occurs at a prevalence of 100% throughout most of sub-Saharan Africa yet is virtually absent outside of Africa.

The increased disease morbidity and mortality in AA in USA is irrespective of the above genetic differences in AA pts IMO. Chloroquine etc affects Hgb as I mentioned above, thereby mitigating the malaria Hgb disease effect. And potentially COVID-19?

Marcus Aurelius
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lb3 said:

I'm an engineer and not a doctor so please forgive my ignorance but I don't understand the chart. The chart indicates that increasing PCO2, shifts the curve right? I seem to remember the alveolar gas equations that take CO2 into account show an increase in O2 saturation due to an increased hypercapnic drive which is a left shift on the chart.
The O2 content equation is FIO2(PO2-PH2O(barometric pressure of water at sea level)-PCO2/R(resp gas exchange ratio) + .003(PO2)(negligible)

So normal PO2 = .21 (sea level)(760 - 47) - 40/0.8 + 0 = 99.7 mm Hg


Hypercapnea shifts the curve rightwards. Usually in hypercapneic states there is a decreased drive or physiologic capability to exhale CO2 (COPD, OSA, OHS etc). Hence no Hgb/O2 left shift.
lb3
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cisgenderedAggie
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There was a paper out this week describing SARS-CoV-2 infecting lymphocytes and possibly leading to the increased NLR ratios reported in severe patients. I don't know if this was effecting absolute neutrophils at all, but would an enrichment of neutrophils relative to lymphocytes alone lead to hypoxemia that creates your hypothesized left shift? Basically just neutrophils chewing up the oxygen. If so, might there be any value in trying to reduce neutrophils?

In full disclosure, these are not pathways I've worked with much.
Godbless
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I have not seen much talk about thalessemia and sickle cell anemia.

Are these people more or less prone to this covid 19 issue. Seems like beta thalessemia would be more prone to serious problems with Covid 19.

But then there is Ferrara Italy anomaly. High degree of thalessemia low degree of deaths from Covid 19.
Marcus Aurelius
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Dont know about thalassemia or G6PD, but I would expect sickle SS and SA do do very poorly with sars cov2. I have a hunch that the SA black pts who are relatively asmptomatic and yet not diagnosed are part of the increased M and M in blacks with sars cov2.
plain_o_llama
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Is this the paper you are referring to?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6478436/

<edit>
whoops that is clearly not the article I was thinking you were referencing. However, it was one I was
going to ask about at some point so I will leave the link.


<edit2>
Is this the paper?

"SARS-CoV-2 infects T lymphocytes through its spike protein-mediated membrane fusion"
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41423-020-0424-9
Keegan99
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Quote:

Hgb binds more avidly to O2 and less O2 is delivered peripherally to tissues


Just want to make sure I'm reading this correctly, since I think this might be a typo. Hgb binds more avidly to CO, correct?
Marcus Aurelius
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No. Less O2 delivered peripherally when curve shifts left. In the case of CO which has a much higher affinity for Hgb, the Hgb binds tighter peipherally to O2 . With carbon monoxide inhalation less O2 binds to hemoglobin in the alveolar sacs since CO affinity higher. Therefore there is much less oxygen bound to hemoglobin once it gets to the tissues.

Sorry for edits. Typing on phone at red light. And crappy voice recognition.

With O2/Hgb physiology - it's important to remember the concept of binding in the lung and binding/delivering in tissue.
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