For the stat geeks out there, this ranks Clemens #3 all-time:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/hof_monitor.shtml

sorry guys I would put Nolan ahead ahead Roger
Nolan never had the run support that Roger has
I seen many times that Nolan would lose a game 1-0 or 2-1 and so on.

And Roger hasn't?

Well, from some of the responses I've seen regarding credibility & Nolan Ryan, I'm left wondering how old some of you are. Apparently not old enough to have personally witnessed Ryan punching out batter-after-batter (not literally, except of course for the infamous Ventura beat-down), going head-to-head against Pete Rose and not giving in, etc.

To simply look at a pitcher's W-L is not adequate in judging the quality of a pitcher. Sure, you'd like to see more wins, but Ryan did win 300 + for his career. I'm looking at the no-hitters, the K's, and the presence that Ryan exuded on the mound, in addition to his other numbers. And yes, I am aware of his high number of walks (goes with the territory of being a power pitcher), and his losses (no pitcher has complete control over the W-L record).

Look at 1987 for the Astros: 8-17 record but led the NL (MLB?) in ERA and K's. In my book Ryan made his contribution to the Astros' win totals that year but the bats were strangely silent when he was on the mound. And this should be eerily familiar to current Astros fans where Clemens is concerned this season.

quote:

---

To simply look at a pitcher's W-L is not adequate in judging the quality of a pitcher.

---

well thank you Mr. Bill James!

quote:

---

I'm left wondering how old some of you are

---

Because we say Bob Gobson and Sandy Koufaz are better?

All-time leader in walks.

In 1986, who did the Astros have pitch Games 1 and 4 and ready to go in Game 7? Nolan was not even the best pitcher on the team when he played for the Astros. JR Richard in the early years, Mike Scott in the later years took that title.

quote:

---

I'm looking at the no-hitters,

---

What a useless stat to look at. He was that good on 7 days during his career. That does not make a career.

TK,

If you look at my original post, I include both Gibson and Koufax as among the greatest pitchers the game has ever seen.

JR Richard may very well have been the best pitcher on the Astros staff in '80, but we'll never know just how great he would have been because of the stroke.

Mike Scott was dominant in '86. In terms of a career (post split finger, 86-90), though, Scott was merely a blip on the screen compared to others, including Ryan.

Ryan was dominant for most of 27 years. Yes, he walked a bunch, yes, the no-hitter is a "useless" stat when speaking of a career, and yes, Ryan was barely more than a .500 pitcher. But I stand by my original statement: Ryan is one of the best 5 pitchers ever to have played the game.

ANother important fact -

Nolan's Nuprin commercials were among the worst commercials ever.

But his Whataburger commercials were pretty good

Cinco Ranch I agree with you 110% about Nolan Ryan. AS good as Roger is and has been. I will still pick Nolan Ryan over Roger. Anybody who disagrees well I believe its because they never did see Ryan pitch in his prime or pitch with the Astros.

I'm sorry, but anyone that thinks Nolan Ryan ranks above Roger Clemens on the all-time greatest list is a homer.

Why doesnt Nolan Ryan belong on the list?

for me, his ERA is too high when compared to those he played with.

I'd put Nolan in the Top 10. And if you said "which pitcher at his best is the greatest pitcher of all time", I'd put Nolan in the top 3 of those I have seen.

I would take the sip over Nolan Ryan, but I think Nolan Ryan belongs in a top 10 list of greatest pitchers of all time. If he would have been a Yankee, Dodger, or Red Sox pitcher rather than on the crappy Angels, the crappy Astros, and the crappy Rangers he'd have a lot more people slobbering over his knob.

I'm an Astros fan, I'm just keeping it real; we aren't exactly the most storied franchise in MLB.

By stats no, but by heart and drive yes in my book. This guy is a true warrior. If your a fan and you have never seen him pitch in person u missed out. Watch him in the bullpen before the game he is totally zoned in.

Nolan Ryan is certainly one of the most exciting pitchers of all time and is without question a HOF pitcher.

However, there is a difference between a HOFer and the Top 5 Ever. There are over 60 HOF pitchers and they were all great, obviously, but the top 5 is VERY, VERY short list.





- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Check out "Texas A&M & Baseball In No Particular Order"
at tamu-and-baseball.com

[This message has been edited by AgRyan04 (edited 10/12/2005 8:49p).]

the top 5 is indeed a short list. approximately 5 names on it.

Top 5?

Cy Young
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Walter Johnson
Roger Clemens

I have no idea.

[This message has been edited by PJYoung (edited 10/13/2005 9:16a).]