I've watched this play 40 times now. Play starts at .31 seconds.

There is no baseline between first and second.

I wish i knew how to freeze frame the video. It happens really fast and is close.

Also the umpire's explanation is odd. To me if he is safe it's not because of the effort put into the attempt. But I see how it wasn't much of an effort too.

Crazy call.

Hope Jomboy does this one.

Out but who knows this day and age. Basketball has evolved into whatever you want to do is legal now.

phatty26 said:

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Out but who knows this day and age. Basketball has evolved into whatever you want to do is legal now is baseball heading that way soon.

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It's three feet, not 18 inches. Is he still out?

HoustonAg12 said:

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The baseline is established when the fielder has the ball. If you slow it down, once the fielder has the ball the runner proceeds about 5-6 feet to his right. I think you have a couple feet cushion but not that much. Should have been called out

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The path isn't established when the fielder has the ball. The path is established when the fielder makes a tag attempt.

WallyWonka said:

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agsalaska said:

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There is no baseline between first and second.

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It's called base path between first and second base and second and third base.

"MLB Rule 5.09(b)(1) Avoiding a Tag
Rule 5.09(b)(1) in Major League Baseball states that a runner is out if they run more than three feet away from their base path to avoid being tagged, unless they are avoiding interference with a fielder."

Based on the video, the runner clearly knew he was going to be out if he continued running in the base path and intentionally ran out of the base path.

I didn't hear from the video, was this not reviewable?

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The base path is not established until there is a tag attempt or moving towards the runner to make a tag attempt.

That last part was a modification to help a pickle if the runner is being chased and does not run towards a base. But it applies here.

Is he still out?

What caused this change in what a baseline was? It feels like this has just been a thing for the last 5-10 years.....before thst you ran from point a to point b.....is it a player safety thing gone off the rails?

AgRyan04 said:

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What caused this change in what a baseline was? It feels like this has just been a thing for the last 5-10 years.....before thst you ran from point a to point b.....is it a player safety thing gone off the rails?

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It's not new. Think about a player rounding third going home and getting ten feet off of the baseline. Or a two out lead from second base.

john2002ag said:

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It is 3 feet in total. That means that once the basepath is established, you have 18 inches either way.

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That is incorrect. Runner is out if he runs three feet away from his established base path.

agsalaska said:

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WallyWonka said:

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agsalaska said:

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There is no baseline between first and second.

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It's called base path between first and second base and second and third base.

"MLB Rule 5.09(b)(1) Avoiding a Tag
Rule 5.09(b)(1) in Major League Baseball states that a runner is out if they run more than three feet away from their base path to avoid being tagged, unless they are avoiding interference with a fielder."

Based on the video, the runner clearly knew he was going to be out if he continued running in the base path and intentionally ran out of the base path.

I didn't hear from the video, was this not reviewable?

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The base path is not established until there is a tag attempt or moving towards the runner to make a tag attempt.

That last part was a modification to help a pickle if the runner is being chased and does not run towards a base. But it applies here.

Is he still out?

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Hey, umpiring is sort of like women....

My fat is your skinny....

My 5 is your 10....

It depends on how you see it in the moment.

AggieBand2004 said:

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Three feet in total or three feet in any direction, before or at the time of an attempted tag, yadda yadda... no matter how you describe it, this runner clearly departed from his basepath way more than he should have.
How umps at any level could get this one wrong is surprising.

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I would think that establishing the rules, which clearly is a misunderstood rule, is important.

From what I can tell, the umpires described this two different ways.

According to the Manager the explanation they gave him was that he didn't make a real effort to tag the runner. The runner is allowed to establish his basepath and the fielder's half hearted attempt to tag him was not enough. I can see that. He gestured towards him but didn't really try to tag him. But he was moving towards him which is actually in the rule. There is certainly a line there somewhere between an attempt and not an attempt. So if there was no attempt to tag him there is no basepath. That's true. But was that gesture towards him enough effort to force an established path?

The umpires told a reporter after the game that the baseline had been established to 'avoid the fielder from potential interference'(which I think is irrelevant but OK). This is the quote

Quote:

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"The runner has the right to establish his basepath, and so Clement had established his basepath to avoid the fielder from potential interference," Lentz told a pool reporter. "Even though Henderson reached out for a tag, Clement's basepath was already established out there, going to the second base, so therefore it was not out of the baseline

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OK. But was he still going to second base or is every step further away from his baseline. As soon as the fielder moves to throw to first base the basepath is irrelevant I think because the fielder is making the next play. So the fact that he slid to the right of the bag shouldn't matter because the play against him was over. This is actually the part I am not totally certain of, though I think based on how pickles are called this is correct. In a pickle if you run back to the bag and the fielder throws to a different base you do not have a basepath established. This happened in the Super Regionals yesterday. I think that same rule would apply here.

I hope Jomboy and/or Antonelli do this one.

Out

I can't see how this isn't an out. As soon as Gunnar was running towards him with the ball he was attempting to tag. The base path is then established toward 2nd base, not into the outfield. I have out of the base path and an out.

This is 100% an out. Not even an argument. Yes it's a half-hearted tag attempt by Henderson, but there's still a glove flash, and it's only after that Clement chooses to veer 60* off course for about 5 feet. Hell, even when he slides "into" the bag he still has to crawl 3+ feet to be within reach of the bag.

The umpire's nonsense post-game about Clement being "courteous" to Henderson by getting out of his way so that he has a clean lane for a throw makes me want to physically assault that umpire. Doubling down on stupid is just more stupiderest.

Had he said, "in retrospect I got it wrong" I'd have been fine with it. Now that the post-game statements have come out I think MLB should suspend him for a few weeks.

aggielax48 said:

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I can't see how this isn't an out. As soon as Gunnar was running towards him with the ball he was attempting to tag. The base path is then established toward 2nd base, not into the outfield. I have out of the base path and an out.

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I agree. This is where he is out. I can see the umpire not giving him any credit for the half ass glove swipe if the fielder had been standing still. Then I'd be ok with it. But as soon as he ran towards him the base path is established and from there he sure looks like he veered well over three feet.

They actually clarified that a few years ago in the rule book to help officiate pickles.

To Sean98- I do think the fact that he ended up right of the bag doesn't matter though As soon as the fielder moved on to throw to first there is no longer a basepath. The call is blown from the moment he moves towards the runner to the moment he passes him. And it looks like it was well beyond three feet.

I meant to post this on the MLB board. My bad.

john2002ag said:

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It is 3 feet in total. That means that once the basepath is established, you have 18 inches either way.

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Incorrect. To apply the rule the umpire is using one full step each side of the established basepath