It is an accepted part of just about every other sport. You don't hear complaints about punters falling down at the slightest touch, or WR's asking for a PI call anytime there's contact. Soccer players also do it.
Karl Malone didn't bother me because he supposedly "flopped", he bothered me because he was dirty.
Vlade Divac made up for lack of size by drawing charges on Shaq. If Manu is drawing charges by "flopping", then that is smart defense, not "being cheap". Same goes for Dirk.
Seems like people should be mad at the refs making the call, rather than the crafty player who has learned how to draw a foul.

Soccer now yellow cards floppers...

I hate flopping cause it is stupid. makes you look like a stupid kid who can't take come contact.

trying to act to get a call in your favor is just flat out stupid.

yeah but it isn't really used in soccer enough to prevent floppind. I played soccer my whole life, and very rarely did any of us flop. I'm pretty sure it is taught over seas. Flopping is only going to ruin basketball

flopping to get a call is not stupid if it works

I think it is stupid because free throws aren't near as exciting. It takes away from the game...

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hate flopping cause it is stupid. makes you look like a stupid kid who can't take come contact.

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no it doesn't. if you "take some contact", you're going to foul out in about 5 minutes like our boy Pompey did this year against Texas. In case you've never played basketball, ANY time you draw a charge in a game, there is some flopping. If you just get position and let the guy hit you, but don't fall down, you will get called for the blocking foul 90% of the time. There's a reason that coaches from the little league up to the high school level teach their kids that drawing a charge is about #1 getting in position and getting your feet set, and #2 fall down when the guy hits you.

real...

I both played basketball and referee basketball at the 5A level.

a guy doesn't have to fall to the ground for a charge to be called...that is funny.

in fact, in player control fouls I would say the offended player falls maybe 50% of the time.

edit: and when they do fall to the ground it is not some over exagerated fall to the ground, it is just straight contact.

I am not sure if you are understanding the difference between a flop and a foul where a guy falls to the ground.

[This message has been edited by bknetag (edited 5/6/2005 2:05p).]

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flopping to get a call is not stupid if it works

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It might not be stupid, but it's a very cheap way to win.

David Stern fines JVG for questioning the integrity of the game, maybe he should fine many of these international guys for "cheating" the game as well.

I'm with RMC on this one. As far as player control fouls that involve an offensive player colliding with a defensive player that is trying to give the impression that he is set (whether he actually is or not), I would say the defensive player falls down at least 80% of the time. That's what you are taught.

I guess maybe we should define what exactly "flopping" is. It seems like it has a completely different meaning for a lot of fans on here. I'm far from a hoops expert, but I've played years of organized basketball, and to me, "flopping" is a guy falling down in an attempt to draw a charge while on defense.
What exactly are Dirk/Manu/Malone/Divac doing that you guys consider a "flop"?

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David Stern fines JVG for questioning the integrity of the game, maybe he should fine many of these international guys for "cheating" the game as well.

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nobody is "cheating". This is no different from a punter falling down after a blocker hits his leg.

if flopping gets the other teams best player ejected or fouled out (pierce/duncan) then i dont see how its 'stupid'. however if you notice in both of those situations, the team who was 'cheated' overcame the flop and won the game.

Well you can flop on a charge, but you can also draw a lot of contact and fall down while taking a charge.

The flopping that I'm talking about is the Dirk/Manu stuff on jump shots or drives in the lane. They do take their share of contact, but there are also a number of times when they are barely touched on a shot and it looks like they got shot by someone from the crowd. I have also noticed a lot of this from Dirk on jumpers when he falls down to try and get a three point play(Reggie Miller is also good at this, he sticks his leg out on the shot to make contact with the defender and then goes down).

That is what is crap to me.

amen fightin.

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nobody is "cheating". This is no different from a punter falling down after a blocker hits his leg.

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He's not accusing people of cheating...He's accusing them of cheating the game...ie taking away from it...

Which is a very valid arguement...I'm sick of seeing players shoot a jumper, have a guy in their face and just fall down and slide on their a$$ after they shoot the ball...It gets old

byron06,

Once again, never said it was stupid, but someone doing this deserves to lose because they have to resort to flopping to get ahead. Just play the game the right way and this won't be a problem. I mean this is the playoffs and you hear about toughness and intensity only to see this garbage happen.

so the complaint is that international players like Dirk and Manu are better at drawing fouls when they attack the basket? Was Jordan a flopper? Olajuwon? Iverson? Kobe? TMac? Barkley? Bird? Isiah? Every great offensive player ever knows how to draw a foul when going to the basket. Every one of those guys shoots/shot a lot of free throws, and especially during the playoffs when you want the ball in the hands of your star even more.

real...

those guys attacked the basket...just like you are taught. they legitimately got fouled. they didn't stop 15 feet from the goal and take a jump shot

what they didn't do was... take a 15 foot jump shot, then fall to the groud like they just got hit in the chest from a point blank cannon ball shot.

Fightin - Your complaint about "flopping" is half warranted. I would rather have soft fouls called, than fouls that injure players and taken them out of games due to injury. Besides, not all of the soft fouls are called. This isn't street ball...

I'm not advocating the refs call ticky tack fouls that will make the game one big free throw session nor am I trying to take out the agressiveness of the sport, but there has to be some control in the game.

Fort Worth02,

I agree with you on that. I think the refs have let some physical play go too far, which has led to some really low-scoring games and ugly basketball.

Hey, maybe we should cut these foreigners some slack. Their coaches probably make them do the "Flop Drill" before games instead of the "Charge Drill".

The Charge Drill does make you work on falling, but its principles are based on help defense, moving your feet to get in proper position, and then drawing the contact.

On the other hand, the Flop Drill is based on flailing your arms/legs/head/hair(although Dirk has his short, which I might argue has decreased his chances of getting the flop called) into your opponent in an attempt to convince the refs that you have been fouled. There is a big difference between the two.

Flopping to me is when you jump over in front of a guy and before he even touches you, you are at a 45 degree angle. If the offensive guy could stop without tuoching you, you would still fall. I dont mind so much when a guy like Manu goes in and throws his arms up because he got fouled, alot of players do that so its more obvious. As far as guys flyin around grabbing their jaws or eyes like they got shot, it's ridiculous, just to be fine on the other end of the court. The pierce incident was a flop, but he did get hit. I think he was just trying to sell it to the ref... make it more noticeable. Now the duncan/carmelo thing wasnt a flop. Mello just slipped and the refs blew the call. But, as much as we dont like it, flopping is a part of the game. The refs make it that way. If the players dont get away with it, they wouldnt do it. So I dont really blame the players, I would blame the NBA and that idiot David Stern.

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Soccer players also do it.

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'Nuff said.

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Soccer players also do it.

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Reason enough for me.

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Why do people complain about "flopping"?

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I agree, and while we are at it, why do people complain about

*People who fake workers comp
*People who fake car wreck injuries
*People who Park in Handicap parking, and then limp in the store
*People who fake anything in order to get ahead in life


BECAUSE THEY ARE FAKING THINGS IN ORDER TO GET OVER -- I mean, is it really that hard of a concept to understand?

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no it doesn't. if you "take some contact", you're going to foul out in about 5 minutes like our boy Pompey did this year against Texas. In case you've never played basketball, ANY time you draw a charge in a game, there is some flopping. If you just get position and let the guy hit you, but don't fall down, you will get called for the blocking foul 90% of the time. There's a reason that coaches from the little league up to the high school level teach their kids that drawing a charge is about #1 getting in position and getting your feet set, and #2 fall down when the guy hits you.

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Ha, no kidding. Our basketball team used to practice taking charges. One guy would stand on the block, and someone else would run him over. You had to fall down and yell like you just got shot.

People don't like it because basketball is a "sport" and flopping is not "sporting" as most true sports fans understand.

That is the most direct explanation.

Again guys the problem here rests with the refs and the league. The refs/stern allows this kind of cheap play so they are going to continue to do it. It is pretty sad when a ref calls a foul on a guy who never even touched the flopper. Dirk's problem is he flops so much he is not even getting touched half the time. Anybody remember bill lambier? He was good at this as well.

Big difference between taking a charge and flopping.

I consider taking a charge to be part of a skilled basketball players arsenal. Its not easy to put yourself in the way of some other guy and draw this call. You have to have your feet set, be in the right position, and also have to have some degree of mental toughness because in most instances, you have a guy coming at you unimpeded with some speed built up.

Flopping is nothing more than acting and doesn't deserve the satisfaction of a foul call.

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BECAUSE THEY ARE FAKING THINGS IN ORDER TO GET OVER -- I mean, is it really that hard of a concept to understand?

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And don't forget about head and ball fakes. I once saw a player pretend that he was going to shoot so the defender would jump. When the defender jumped, he went right around him for an easy layup. I hope there's a special place reserved in Hell for liars like that.

Do you not see the difference seven. Since you don't I will point it out for you. In your case the guy uses talent to get around his opponent and score. In the flopping cases the player is trying to get a non-existent foul called on the other player rather than use his talent to play basketball. You could say he has acting talent, but that is different from athletic talent. It is really funny that you don't see the difference.

It's a joke.