Tennessee & Vandy Additional Observations

1,405 Views | 19 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by TjgtAg08
TjgtAg08
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AG
I went back and watched a lot of extended highlights and some game tape of both the Tennessee and Vandy games and a few things stood out to me, thought others could offer some more insight and answer some questions ...

1) Missed shots from 3. Its really that simple, especially against Tennessee. Even I banged the drum in the days after the UT game about not taking so many 3s when we are bad at it, recognizing we are off and doing something else, etc ... but damn, we just could not hit the broad side of the barn in either of those games. Especially against Tennessee, of the 3s that I saw on replay (and I didn't watch every single one of them), I think maybe there were 3 or 4 that you would classify as "bad shots" for us. The vast majority of the 3s we've been shooting have been pretty damn good looks (at least for us), and they just aren't going in. Period. Its wildly frustrating.

2) Solo at the 3 vs Solo at the 4. I know its not unique to these 2 games, but I cannot believe we are still playing even a single minute with Solo at the 3. Its blowing my mind. Its like watching 2 completely different offensive players. At the 3, he's stuck in a corner and literally doesn't move. Multiple possessions in each game, just in the highlights, the defender closest to him has his back to Solo the ENTIRE POSSESSION and didn't have to even pretend to guard him. When Solo is at the 4, its a completely different story. He's active, he's in the paint for offensive rebounds, he gets the ball on the elbow and can dribble a little bit, etc. Him playing with two of Andy/Payne/Coleman has to stop. Either that, or he has to run the baseline back and forth without the ball ... he'd be open for 6-7 lobs per game based on how he is defended,

3) Defensive lack of court awareness? I know we have a "team defense" scheme, but Tyler Nickel and Chaz Lanier are both shooting 40+% from 3 on the year ... I just don't understand how any scouting report or defensive plan when those guys are in the game doesn't start with "don't leave that guy ever." Here are 2 clips, 1 from each game (for some reason I can't get them to embed with the YouTube player):

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxfGFM6iM4rJL1Bm2T-EJy4LhRf_Qwcqzz?si=eRc2chB7AmL9ScG2

This is Nickel's first 3. In this clip, Hefner does a decent job closing out on their small guard in the corner, forcing him baseline. At that moment, Phelps is on the back side almost in the paint, while Nickel is on the wing, about to rotate toward the ball and BEG for it. When the guard "penetrates" directly into help defense (Andy) and starts to pass it out to Nickel, who has gone from the back side wing to the ball side wing, we have FOUR GUYS BELOW THE FT LINE and Hefner trailing the ball, with one of the conference's best 3pt shooters (who is 6ft 7in) left alone on the wing.

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxZ18JTQ-EEeDcT3GoDPI90qa0llw56Hpo?si=n1H_c2VVl3GPsDfU

Even worse here against Tennessee for Lanier's first 3. Pause it at the 4 second mark and you'll see Lanier in the corner with the ball on the same side of the floor. Wade Taylor is standing with a foot in the paint at the FT line as the ball MOVES TOWARD LANIER, and he doesn't even make an attempt to get over there until the ball has already been passed to Lanier. Thats so damn easy.

This can't be how we've be doing things all season, is it? I know Goodine torched us against OU twice, but as its been mentioned, that guy is the 3rd or 4th option at that team, and we took away the first couple, I get that. But Nickel and Lanier (especially Lanier) ... those guys are big parts of their teams. They aren't the 3rd or 4th options when on the court. How is part of the plan not making sure someone is within arms length of those guys on the perimeter at all times?

4) It feels like Wade Taylor is killing us on defense. Look, I'm not an expert, so I could be wrong on this, or maybe this is all by design and the math is just upside down on us right now, but much of the time it looks to me like we are playing 4-5 on defense with Wade in the game, especially as the ball gets moved around the perimeter or if Wade gets matched up with someone in the corner.

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx3yQrvoBZ0_gjyySHuxsNYyPnbJnNJY55?si=uplbbL9sNV3EKM6A

This happened at least 3 times in the closing minutes of the Tennessee game, but this one jumped out at me the most. Wade is "defending" a guard in the corner, and that guy runs through to the other side and Wade "passes him off" as he does and then Wade just stands there.

At that same moment, Payne is at the top guarding Zeigler with the ball (yikes ... wtf?) on the same side that Wade's guy vacated. Zeigler penetrates towards the middle of the floor, and when he picks up his dribble at the FT line, there are then 5 UT players on one side of the floor and only 4 A&M guys, with Wade in no-mans land on the other side by the baseline.

3 shooters on that side for Tennessee and its just "pick your man" for Zeigler. Solo can't close out on them both, and when he moves to the guy in the corner, Zeigler picks his other teammate on the wing for a 5 foot pass and a wide open 3.

And maybe I'm wrong on this, maybe thats exactly what Wade is supposed to do, but if thats the case, then the plan is seriously flawed. If all you have to do is move from one corner to the other to completely unbalance and confuse our defense, thats ridiculous. If Wade isn't going to follow, shouldn't he have rotated down, taken Phelp's spot and allowed Phelps to rotate out? Or, sh*t, do something else! Go up and trap Zeigler with Payne, force him to pick up his dribble! Instead he just stood there = easy look for Tennessee.

I swear that happened a bunch of times in these 2 games (although not always with Wade).
TjgtAg08
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AG
I don't know what real conclusions I can draw from all that I saw.

On re-watch/view I feel a little better about what we are doing offensively ... we are just in a stretch of 3-4 games where nothing wants to go in. On top of the 3s not falling, even Phelps and Manny have missed multiple bunnies at the rim in transition or on penetration that they finish the vast majority of the time. Solo at the 3 is really bad though.

Defensively, I don't know if its overall intensity, if its confusion, if its a single guy not doing his job on any given play, or what, but its really bad at times, and those times seem to be in the most important stretches of the game.

And maybe its partly who we've played and certain matchup, but I think my re-watch solidifies in my mind my personal answer to Bobinator's question the other day - we've got to stop helping so much, especially on penetration, especially with help from the perimeter. Ironically, when a guard penetrates and gets to the rim, if he actually gets to the hoop and shoots, we are doing a really good job of altering/blocking the shot and getting the rebound. Its when a guard penetrates, we collapse and its an easy move of the ball to an open 3.
Fanatic15...Drs2B!
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Thank you for the work and analysis.

I agree with much of this.
bobinator
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AG
- On the first three pointer, I don't think it was lack of court awareness, it was a missed switch. And that's what I was talking about on another thread is teams are using our switches against us off the ball. Phelps thinks he has the backside forward because he thinks Manny is going to pick up the guy coming down from Coleman. but Coleman stays with that guy and by the time Coleman realizes that Nickel has moved over the top he can't recover. Now Phelps actually sees this happen but by the time he's sprinting toward Nickel, Coleman is in the way.

The second is also a miscommunication I think, Taylor is trying to tell Solo to get off the big and move over to Lanier in the corner, I think this because he points toward Lanier and then takes two steps toward Milicic. But Solo other doesn't or can't because he's being held. A similar thing happens multiple times where Tennessee uses their spacing to force an awkward switch. This is the kind of a thing a team with a week to prepare can do to us but that most teams probably can't.

- I like the big lineup, but it does limit us offensively. It's better defensively because then we can play without Carter/Hefner/Wilcher/Manny, but like you said Solo needs to be much more active on offense and at least help get other guys open or flash to the basket or something.

Per EvanMiya our best two man lineup is Solo and Garcia, so there's something to them being on the court together, but we can't do it when Taylor and Phelps are struggling offensively.

- But the last one is definitely true. Taylor's defense has been absolutely terrible lately. And it's compounded because Phelps' hasn't been as good. We can sort of hide Taylor in this defense, but we can't hide both of them. That's what happened with Taylor and Boots last year. At least one of them needs to be able to play in front of the ball.

But a lot of this is just a long way of saying that Phelps has to play better. When he's bad, it puts us in a REALLY bad spot. Taylor's defense needs to be a little better and some other guys need to make some minor improvements, but Phelps just has to be play better than he has lately.
TjgtAg08
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AG
Good stuff, thanks!

I still don't love any defensive strategy that doesn't make an adjustment when there is an "outlier player" on the floor. I get that we make adjustments at half (and we did that well against both of those guys), but why did we have to make an adjustment to begin with? Its not like Lanier and Nickel were hitting these crazy, contested shots in the face of tight defense over and over again and we had to just finally stop denying them the ball, they were getting a lot of in-rhythm looks due to confusion or lack of closing out ... there should never be the chance to "get confused" when a shooter like that is on the floor, especially not 5-6 times.

"Hey Solo, when No. 2 for Tennessee is on the floor, he's your guy. Make sure he doesn't get up easy 3s." Why can't we do that?

As for Phelps - and maybe this is part of the results I'm referencing above - I still see many plays where he is playing very good on-ball, 1-on-1 defense. He's still a really good defender in that way ... but he's been lost a lot lately in the scheme (it would appear) either due to him being wrong or a miscommunication between him and another guy.

Gotta simplify it a little bit, make it easier for a guy like Phelps to just defend his guy (or the ball) and let the guys behind him protect the rim.
TjgtAg08
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AG
bobinator said:

- I like the big lineup, but it does limit us offensively. It's better defensively because then we can play without Carter/Hefner/Wilcher/Manny, but like you said Solo needs to be much more active on offense and at least help get other guys open or flash to the basket or something.

I do think the combo of Hefner/Wilcher needs to get more minutes at 3 coming down the stretch (not on the court at the same time) with the "starters" and they need to shoot. When either of those guys are in the game, on offense there is at least a lot more movement without the basketball and things open up a little.

Its 10x harder for either of those guys to get a good look when they are playing with Manny/Carter/Coleman, but at the 3 with 2 of Taylor/Phelps/Manny and 2 bigs, things are more open. I would guess that most of Wilcher's 3s in the last 3-4 games have come from a more "starter-centric" lineup.
bobinator
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AG
I don't love our defense to begin with. I think it's too complicated.

But that said, the outlier player isn't always a problem if the overall team numbers are still in our favor. This is so anti-traditional-basketball that it's hard to think this way, but what difference does it make if one guy has 30 points on 80% 3pt shooting if the whole team is still shooting 33% from 3?

That was the case with Vandy through the first half. Sure Nickel has 12 on 4/6 shooting from deep, but overall Vandy was shooting 33% from 3 and 34% from the field. Problem was the second half. They shot 50% from the field and 56% from 3. We like our opponents shooting threes as long as its around 35% or worse because that means we're probably not fouling them.

But that was not the case with Tennessee. They shot 62% from 3 and 48% from the field. Not good!
TjgtAg08
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bobinator said:

I don't love our defense to begin with. I think it's too complicated.

But that said, the outlier player isn't always a problem if the overall team numbers are still in our favor. This is so anti-traditional-basketball that it's hard to think this way, but what difference does it make if one guy has 30 points on 80% 3pt shooting if the whole team is still shooting 33% from 3?

That was the case with Vandy through the first half. Sure Nickel has 12 on 4/6 shooting from deep, but overall Vandy was shooting 33% from 3 and 34% from the field. Problem was the second half. They shot 50% from the field and 56% from 3. We like our opponents shooting threes as long as its around 35% or worse because that means we're probably not fouling them.

But that was not the case with Tennessee. They shot 62% from 3 and 48% from the field. Not good!

Completely agree, and I think that's the argument Buzz would make, especially as it pertains to the Goodine kid from OU ... "so an unexpected player goes off, so what? One guy can't beat us, we are going to disrupt what you (in this case OU) do best and we are confident that if/when we do that, some random guy, even if he's hot, isn't going to carry the team to victory."

And you are right, mathematically it doesn't matter who "goes off" if the overall numbers work out in your favor.

BUT -- and this isn't a factual statement or even an opinion, is more a hunch -- I'd bet that when the guy that "goes off" is the team's best or second-best player, the math works out A LOT less, in general. To use us as an example, if Solo and Andy scores a bunch of points in a game (especially if its from 3), teams can probably live with that because that might mean they are forcing those guys to take the shots by limiting the best players.

But if Wade scores 25-30 points and hits 5-6 3s, the odds have to skyrocket that A&M is winning the game.

So if Lanier has 30 in a game, as Tennessee's best offensive weapon, the opposing team basically did nothing to make Tennessee uncomfortable on offense.

Edit -- I might take this back, because we've lost a startlingly high number of games with Wade Taylor scoring 25+ points just in the last 2 years.
bobinator
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AG
Well yeah, that's the difference between "we're playing well overall but one guy is lighting us up" versus "we're not playing well."

We did not play defense well against Tennessee. At all. At any point. Except we did force some turnovers in the first half. In the first half I thought they did some really smart things on offense (like force us into those situations like in the clip above). That's the kind of thing you can really work on and install if you have a bye week before you play us, and that's where I think it helped them. So then we adjust to it in the second half and they counteradjust and Ziegler just rips us apart. He has five assists they only turn it over 3 times he goes to the line 6 times. We adjusted for Lanier, but it didn't help us anyway.

We played defense fairly well against Vandy in the first half. So even though Nickel is scoring, the overall numbers are still good. You can live with it, you don't necessarily need to adjust what you're doing. Kinda similar with Oklahoma and Goodine in the home game against them.
bobinator
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You can't look at pure points, what you're looking for is high percentages. Also our offense is terrible anyway so we're a bad team to look at. We have too many guys who have this mindset that if they're struggling to score they just stop trying to score and it makes our problems even worse. The only one not like that is Taylor so when we start struggling to score (especially last year) he ends up taking an even higher percentage of our shots even if they're not good shots.
AggieNattie
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And bob, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we adjust our defense a bit when we played Nebraska last year in the tourney? I remember it noticeably a bit different to not give up as many 3s. Maybe we see that tomorrow against UF.
linkdude
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Don't have anything to add, but amazing thread to read through. Plz more of this
bobinator
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I don't recall exactly but I would think so. Honestly though it's hard to really tell sometimes what we're doing on defense which is part of the point. What you think you're seeing isn't always what's happening.
Heineken-Ashi
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TjgtAg08 said:

Even worse here against Tennessee for Lanier's first 3. Pause it at the 4 second mark and you'll see Lanier in the corner with the ball on the same side of the floor. Wade Taylor is standing with a foot in the paint at the FT line as the ball MOVES TOWARD LANIER, and he doesn't even make an attempt to get over there until the ball has already been passed to Lanier. Thats so damn easy.

This can't be how we've be doing things all season, is it? I know Goodine torched us against OU twice, but as its been mentioned, that guy is the 3rd or 4th option at that team, and we took away the first couple, I get that. But Nickel and Lanier (especially Lanier) ... those guys are big parts of their teams. They aren't the 3rd or 4th options when on the court. How is part of the plan not making sure someone is within arms length of those guys on the perimeter at all times?
That's EXACTLY how we have always done it. Buzz is scared to death of scoring inside and has always had his perimeter defense sag deep into the paint. And he refuses to ever change it.
bobinator
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If we were really that far off all the time then everyone would shoot above their averages against us, but they don't. So we're either consistently incredibly lucky or that's not how we usually defend it.
Redfishag93
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I wish it was a simple as to tell solo, "you don't help off Lanier or nickel" and lock him down. You can get away with that more in high school.

Lanier will end up more open if we don't immediately switch the ball screens and every other action like we do.

I'm not panicking. Our defense has been damn good all year until the last couple of games.

I think if we get back into the incredible energy mode we've played with defensively for the vast majority of the year we need to stick to what we're doing.

The vandy game I did not see that kind of defensive urgency we need with this defense to be highly effective because we just weren't as close to the shooter as we have been.

Just a foot closer on a close out can make a shooter slightly more uncomfortable and that's all it takes to affect a shot.

I doubt we win today because Florida is really good, but I really think we are gonna be fine staying the course.

BuzzFan24
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It should be a requirement that one must watch the game on replay 24 hours after the game has ended before they can comment on this board. Takes all the cry baby emotion out of it, at least for sane individuals.

Great post by OP, we do need more of this and less emotional vomit by keyboard warriors.
BuzzFan24
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TjgtAg08 said:

I went back and watched a lot of extended highlights and some game tape of both the Tennessee and Vandy games and a few things stood out to me, thought others could offer some more insight and answer some questions ...

1) Missed shots from 3.

2) Solo at the 3 vs Solo at the 4.

3) Defensive lack of court awareness?

4) It feels like Wade Taylor is killing us on defense.
We go 9/30 instead of 5/30 and we win vs Tenn.

Solo at the 3 is there so Wade can jack at any moment and we have three beasts on the glass. This has it's flaws for sure. I definitely like him better at the 4 but the right match ups and personnel have to compliment that so this can really restrict his minutes in this case.

Yes, Wade is atrocious on defense and if he's not making up for it by going for 30 on the other end he kills us when he's in the game.

IMO
bobinator
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Garcia and Solo need to switch spots on the floor more IMO.
TjgtAg08
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BuzzFan24 said:

TjgtAg08 said:

I went back and watched a lot of extended highlights and some game tape of both the Tennessee and Vandy games and a few things stood out to me, thought others could offer some more insight and answer some questions ...

1) Missed shots from 3.

2) Solo at the 3 vs Solo at the 4.

3) Defensive lack of court awareness?

4) It feels like Wade Taylor is killing us on defense.
We go 9/30 instead of 5/30 and we win vs Tenn.

Solo at the 3 is there so Wade can jack at any moment and we have three beasts on the glass. This has it's flaws for sure. I definitely like him better at the 4 but the right match ups and personnel have to compliment that so this can really restrict his minutes in this case.

Yes, Wade is atrocious on defense and if he's not making up for it by going for 30 on the other end he kills us when he's in the game.

IMO


The problem with that rationale regarding Solo at the 3 (from what I saw against Vandy and Tennessee) is that it wasn't working. I watched him too many times sit in that corner and not react fast enough to the shot, so he was late getting to the rim, or since he's defender was basically in the paint already (because they weren't guarding him on the perimeter), it was really hard for Solo to get position for the rebound.

Solo had 2 rebounds in 26 min against UT and 2 in 25 min against Vandy. And 2 total points. That SUCKS, that's just a god-awful stat line, borderline unplayable.

I don't know how often he was at the 3 vs the 4 in those games, but to play a guy 25 min a game and start him and that's all you get from him, you have to change something. He doesn't have to score, but if he's not going to score, he's got to rebound and defend like a mad man and you have to be able to put someone else on the floor that is going to score.
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