Why cant Buzz recruit?

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awschux
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6:48p, 4/23/24
AG
I like Buzz and think he's a good coach. Im happy to see we have a couple of transfer portal additions as well. But when I look at recruiting rankings in basketball, like we are accustomed to doing in football, I see that we recruit at a much lower level than many small schools. In any given year there are 4 or 5 schools in Texas alone that recruit better.

What gives? Is there a lack of booster interest in supporting basketball? Of course we are more of a football school, but we are not ONLY a football school. Does TCU really spend more attracting top talent to Ft Worth? Or Baylor attracting kids to Waco? And dont look now, but Arkansas is definitely going to have a top 10 recruiting class this year, and next, and next.

Not interested in talking trash on Buzz or anyone, just genuinely trying to understand why we dont expect to be in the top 20 in basketball recruiting every year, with the occasional top 10 class.
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Pumpkinhead
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In reply to awschux • 7:13p, 4/23/24
AG
awschux said:
I like Buzz and think he's a good coach. Im happy to see we have a couple of transfer portal additions as well. But when I look at recruiting rankings in basketball, like we are accustomed to doing in football, I see that we recruit at a much lower level than many small schools. In any given year there are 4 or 5 schools in Texas alone that recruit better.

What gives? Is there a lack of booster interest in supporting basketball? Of course we are more of a football school, but we are not ONLY a football school. Does TCU really spend more attracting top talent to Ft Worth? Or Baylor attracting kids to Waco? And dont look now, but Arkansas is definitely going to have a top 10 recruiting class this year, and next, and next.

Not interested in talking trash on Buzz or anyone, just genuinely trying to understand why we dont expect to be in the top 20 in basketball recruiting every year, with the occasional top 10 class.
Are you seriously posting this the same day we landed a top-50 nationally ranked portal recruit?

Also, I can think of only two times in A&M basketball school history that we landed what was considered a top-10 recruiting class: 2006 and 2015. Also, with the Transfer Portal and NIL era, the normal way to view recruiting class rankings has been muddied up. I used to pay a lot of attention to the HS recruiting but now don't bother much because so much else is going in comparison with the portal.
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zgolfz85
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7:24p, 4/23/24
AG
weird timing
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awschux
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7:49p, 4/23/24
AG
The timing is wejust "landed a top-50 nationally ranked" and that has moved our combined recruiting ranking up to #27.

Its a fair question.
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zgolfz85
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In reply to awschux • 7:58p, 4/23/24
AG
awschux said:
The timing is wejust "landed a top-50 nationally ranked" and that has moved our combined recruiting ranking up to #27.

Its a fair question.


We also haven't lost a single player to the transfer portal yet. It's hard to have a good recruiting ranking when you don't have many holes to fill.
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MarcAg
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In reply to awschux • 8:00p, 4/23/24
AG
Quilt looking at recruiting rankings. Start there
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awschux
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8:10p, 4/23/24
AG
Ok, lets look at sweet 16 appearances.

Or lets look at draft picks over the past several years.


Again, Im a fan of Buzz, but in a good year right now we are the 5th best team in the state of Texas. Does A&M's investment in basketball truly lag behind TCU, Baylor and Houston?

I always assumed coaches like Sampson and Drew got great recruits because they played the shady AAU angles and paid players, and thats still likely true. But now that is not "shady". You can just pay them now one way or another.

So without knocking Buzz, is the answer that he needs support of boosters that will pay for top recruits?
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Know Your Enemy
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8:16p, 4/23/24
AG
Jesus Christ, I thought these ****posters would be gone until next season.
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bobinator
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In reply to awschux • 8:19p, 4/23/24
AG
awschux said:
Does A&M's investment in basketball truly lag behind TCU, Baylor and Houston?


I dunno about TCU but we're way behind Baylor. Probably Houston too but they're kind of a special case with how they were able to get Sampson. We're also probably way behind Tech and Texas though the latter currently has a coach that I think sucks.
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Pumpkinhead
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In reply to bobinator • 8:21p, 4/23/24
AG
bobinator said:
awschux said:
Does A&M's investment in basketball truly lag behind TCU, Baylor and Houston?


I dunno about TCU but we're way behind Baylor. Probably Houston too but they're kind of a special case with how they were able to get Sampson. We're also probably way behind Tech and Texas though the latter currently has a coach that I think sucks.


Of those schools only Texas has a real football program so it's basketball and baseball or bust.
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bobinator
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In reply to Pumpkinhead • 8:24p, 4/23/24
AG
A&M basketball to TCU football is a decent aspirational goal, we need to be a solid "bang for our buck" program like they've been.
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bobinator
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In reply to Pumpkinhead • 8:39p, 4/23/24
AG
I will say all of them are putting money into football though. Not like we are but it's not the same as like Creighton or something.
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Gap
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8:43p, 4/23/24
AG
Is high school recruiting super important anymore if the player isn't of the calibre to produce significantly in year 1?
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Method Man
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In reply to Know Your Enemy • 8:49p, 4/23/24
Know Your Enemy said:
Jesus Christ, I thought these ****posters would be gone until next season.


This was my fault when I said we'd dominate the boards again.
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MarcAg
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In reply to Gap • 8:56p, 4/23/24
AG
Gap said:
Is high school recruiting super important anymore if the player isn't of the calibre to produce significantly in year 1?


Absolutely not. Basketball rankings have always been crazy. Guys come out of nowhere. Some 5 stars do nothing. Josh Hubbard was great for Miss St as a freshman this year and he was a 3 star. UCONN started 4 guys that weren't top 70 players coming out of HS according to 247. Two of the starters were 0 stars coming out of HS.
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frenchtoast
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9:00p, 4/23/24
No mention of resources. Not a serious post.
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bobinator
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In reply to MarcAg • 9:09p, 4/23/24
AG
Yeah, basketball rankings have always been tough, now you add the portal layer to that and it's hard to really rank anything.

Last year we didn't recruit well enough but I like where we are this year a lot.
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Topher17
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In reply to MarcAg • 9:21p, 4/23/24
AG
Reed Sheppard was ranked #79 and is being talked about as a potential Top 5 pick in the NBA draft. No one saw that coming.

Basketball recruiting really isn't very similar to football at all and as others have said it is especially less important in today's game.
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RevrndAg79
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10:00p, 4/23/24
AG
Basketball rankings were a lot easier when most teams were looking for a great big man - a guy who could score close in toward the basket and defend the rim. Then, the guards were guys who could drive and hit mid-range jumpers consistently well. Forwards that could drive and rebound well filled out the squads.

Now, teams have several different ways to win, so coaches look for players that can play the way they think will be most successful for them. Even the NBA is finding it hard to find centers like Moses Malone, Patrick Ewing, and Hakeem, or Tim Duncan these days. And they are looking for versatile big men like Kevin Duran, Wemby, Dirk Nowitzki and Jokavic.

If you just go by measurables in ranking high schoolers today, you are likely to miss-rank them rather often. Then, once the show what they might could do or can do an want to transfer, then the transfer portal gives coaches more to go on.
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t - cam
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In reply to awschux • 11:02p, 4/23/24
AG
awschux said:
Ok, lets look at sweet 16 appearances.

Or lets look at draft picks over the past several years.


Again, Im a fan of Buzz, but in a good year right now we are the 5th best team in the state of Texas. Does A&M's investment in basketball truly lag behind TCU, Baylor and Houston?

I always assumed coaches like Sampson and Drew got great recruits because they played the shady AAU angles and paid players, and thats still likely true. But now that is not "shady". You can just pay them now one way or another.

So without knocking Buzz, is the answer that he needs support of boosters that will pay for top recruits?


Your thread was about recruiting and buzz has put a very good product on the court by getting the guys he likes then you move the goalpost to what I'm guessing is what you really wanted to talk about.
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awschux
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11:32p, 4/23/24
AG
You are missing context. A poster replied to me to "stop looking at recruiting rankings". Thats why I said if someone would rather look at other metrics than rankings, then we can look at:

Draft picks (as a measure of quality of recruiting rather than 24/7 rankings).

OR

Sweet 16 appearances (as a measure of quality of recruiting rather than 24/7 rankings).

Regardless of the metric, recruiting service rankings, or number of draft picks produced, or number of sweet 16 appearances, Texas A&M does not recruit at a high enough level to achieve significant or long term success.


Lets reframe this as the question is sincere. What is needed for Buzz to be able to compete with Baylor, or Texas, or Alabama, or Georgia, or Houston for top 10-20 basketball recruits?

Is it money paid to recruits via NIL? Is it facilities? Is it money for top tier staff to nurture these relationships with players, families, and AAU coaches over a multi year period?

If I am a booster ready to write a check year over year to give Buzz what he needs to land two top 20 talents every year from either the portal or out of high school, then can Buzz actually execute on that?

Where does the money need to go?
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AgEfan
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In reply to awschux • 11:48p, 4/23/24
"Draft picks (as a measure of quality of recruiting rather than 24/7 rankings)."

That's dumb honestly. Completely different sports. Having NBA players doesn't equal success for college teams. Having no NBA players doesn't mean your team is going to struggle in college. You see All Americans and even players of the year in college basketball that aren't first rounders.

His job is not to find NBA guys. His job is to win college basketball games I feel like you don't really follow basketball, but maybe I'm wrong
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BudFox7
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5:53a, 4/24/24
Lol the 'regulars' around here have been watching terrible basketball for years and years now since Turgeon left and want the rest of you to expect for us to suck.
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Schrute Farms
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In reply to awschux • 6:58a, 4/24/24
awschux said:
Ok, lets look at sweet 16 appearances.

Or lets look at draft picks over the past several years.


Again, Im a fan of Buzz, but in a good year right now we are the 5th best team in the state of Texas. Does A&M's investment in basketball truly lag behind TCU, Baylor and Houston?

I always assumed coaches like Sampson and Drew got great recruits because they played the shady AAU angles and paid players, and thats still likely true. But now that is not "shady". You can just pay them now one way or another.

So without knocking Buzz, is the answer that he needs support of boosters that will apay for top recruits?


These posts get old.

1. Manny Obaseki is the highest rated high school recruit to ever come to A&M.

2. Wade Taylor is a recruit turned 2x First Team All SEC selection.

3. Quenton Jackson and Dexter Dennis have both split games between the NBA and G-League this season.

4. Scott Drew didn't make the Sweet 16 until Year 7. He only made it that far twice in his first 10 seasons and missed the tournament in between.

5. Kelvin Sampson didn't make the Sweet 16 until Year 5.

6. Kentucky's had the best recruiting over the last 5 years. They haven't been to the Sweet 16 since 2018-2019. Our roster has beaten them and outperformed them in every measure.

7. Texas has one Sweet 16 appearance in 17 years.

8. TCU hasn't been to the Sweet 16 since 1968. Their best recent season is equivalent to what Buzz accomplished this season.

9. Buzz's back-to-back tournament appearances are the first for A&M in 13 years.

10. Texas A&M has been to the Sweet 16 three times since 1980. Billy Kennedy owns 2 of those appearances but missed the tournament 6 out of 8 years.


What you do have is a 2x SEC CoY with 2 tournament appearances in 4 eligible years, one tournament win, routine SEC tournament runs, an NIT Championship appearance, and players who love him.

He's coached 4 players into All SEC selections (Jackson, Boots, IV, and Garcia). He's sent two to the NBA.

He lost his first year due to COVID, experienced the NIL change shortly after, and started his 5th year start by losing a key returner in October. Yet he's improved the final outcome every year.

Buzz ball can be frustrating and there are many areas for improvement. However, in context, the story is much bigger than "Buzz can't recruit". This is especially true in the portal era where experience seems to trump talent.
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Pumpkinhead
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7:14a, 4/24/24
AG
A Third of D-I Players Have Changed Schools (substack.com)

This past season, this paper goes through the transfer statistics. Nearly one-third of the average D1 roster was transfers. And the transfer rate still continues to grow. This cycle is expected to hit 2000 players who entered the portal. You got about 4700 D1 scholarships, subtract guys who have run out of eligibility or retire or get drafted and so forth. Basically, about half of all D1 players who could return to their current roster are instead recycling through the transfer portal at this point now (50% turnover of remaining roster after subtracting guys who have graduated, retired, or got drafted).

If this A&M team actually keeps a large core of guys from last year's team which it appears on track that it will do, that is now the rare exception.
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bobinator
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7:46a, 4/24/24
AG
The problem is that almost all of these posts are bad faith posts, so the regulars on here hate them. If it's a good faith question about our recruiting there's some legit things to talk about but it's complicated.
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Fanatic15...Drs2B!
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In reply to Schrute Farms • 7:54a, 4/24/24
Schrute Farms said:
awschux said:
Ok, lets look at sweet 16 appearances.

Or lets look at draft picks over the past several years.


Again, Im a fan of Buzz, but in a good year right now we are the 5th best team in the state of Texas. Does A&M's investment in basketball truly lag behind TCU, Baylor and Houston?

I always assumed coaches like Sampson and Drew got great recruits because they played the shady AAU angles and paid players, and thats still likely true. But now that is not "shady". You can just pay them now one way or another.

So without knocking Buzz, is the answer that he needs support of boosters that will apay for top recruits?


These posts get old.

1. Manny Obaseki is the highest rated high school recruit to ever come to A&M.

2. Wade Taylor is a recruit turned 2x First Team All SEC selection.

3. Quenton Jackson and Dexter Dennis have both split games between the NBA and G-League this season.

4. Scott Drew didn't make the Sweet 16 until Year 7. He only made it that far twice in his first 10 seasons and missed the tournament in between.

5. Kelvin Sampson didn't make the Sweet 16 until Year 5.

6. Kentucky's had the best recruiting over the last 5 years. They haven't been to the Sweet 16 since 2018-2019. Our roster has beaten them and outperformed them in every measure.

7. Texas has one Sweet 16 appearance in 17 years.

8. TCU hasn't been to the Sweet 16 since 1968. Their best recent season is equivalent to what Buzz accomplished this season.

9. Buzz's back-to-back tournament appearances are the first for A&M in 13 years.

10. Texas A&M has been to the Sweet 16 three times since 1980. Billy Kennedy owns 2 of those appearances but missed the tournament 6 out of 8 years.


What you do have is a 2x SEC CoY with 2 tournament appearances in 4 eligible years, one tournament win, routine SEC tournament runs, an NIT Championship appearance, and players who love him.

He's coached 4 players into All SEC selections (Jackson, Boots, IV, and Garcia). He's sent two to the NBA.

He lost his first year due to COVID, experienced the NIL change shortly after, and started his 5th year start by losing a key returner in October. Yet he's improved the final outcome every year.

Buzz ball can be frustrating and there are many areas for improvement. However, in context, the story is much bigger than "Buzz can't recruit". This is especially true in the portal era where experience seems to trump talent.


Excellent post.

Even though, technically, COVID only cost Buzz the chance to shine in the SECT his first year - it was the second year that it screwed things up for him.

So, if one was willing (and I know many are not) to give two "mulligans" for those first two COVID-impacted years and simply start the era of "Buzz Ball" at Texas A&M just 3 years ago - he has done outstanding!
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85AustinAg
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7:55a, 4/24/24
AG
Quote:
What is needed for Buzz to be able to compete with Baylor, or Texas, or Alabama, or Georgia, or Houston for top 10-20 basketball recruits?
This is a much better way to frame the question. "You get more flies with honey".
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Know Your Enemy
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7:57a, 4/24/24
AG
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bobinator
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In reply to 85AustinAg • 8:25a, 4/24/24
AG
The unknowable thing is what would Buzz recruiting look like even if we had like Kentucky's NIL money to throw around.

There's simultaneous truths here, that Buzz recruits differently than a lot of people AND that we're not competitive with the elite programs in NIL money.

Unless you have access to data that most of us don't, there's no way to really know how our NIL compares to everyone else, and it's hard to know what Buzz would do with it even if it did.
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Fanatic15...Drs2B!
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In reply to Know Your Enemy • 8:26a, 4/24/24
Know Your Enemy said:


Support for Marble?
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Pumpkinhead
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In reply to bobinator • 8:29a, 4/24/24
AG
bobinator said:
awschux said:
Does A&M's investment in basketball truly lag behind TCU, Baylor and Houston?


I dunno about TCU but we're way behind Baylor. Probably Houston too but they're kind of a special case with how they were able to get Sampson. We're also probably way behind Tech and Texas though the latter currently has a coach that I think sucks.
Right now, A&M has made the past two NCAA tournaments and looks very likely to at least make it again next season to get the NCAA tournament streak three. Right now, I don't see A&M's basketball program much different in quality than Texas Tech, and you can argue A&M has been doing a bit better lately, so I guess A&M is getting more bang for its buck.
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bobinator
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In reply to Pumpkinhead • 8:32a, 4/24/24
AG
Tech's had a ton of transition lately and caught a bad break with the Texas job coming open, but if we're talking overall investment in the program I think they're ahead of us. That doesn't mean their team is better than ours.
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NowhereMan
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8:47a, 4/24/24
Because making players into role models is more important here than making the final four.

It is really that simple, the best players that come out the best basketball prep schools want to get to the final four to be drafted, that's it.

Making the NBA is only second to making the PGA tour of Formula 1, it is an extremely limited opportunity.
Players go where they get watched.
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Know Your Enemy
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In reply to NowhereMan • 8:55a, 4/24/24
AG
That's a little extreme IMO. Buzz's recruiting definitely frustrates me at times but there's something to be said for the way these last couple teams didn't fold when facing some heavy adversity. Both were on the verge of the season collapsing yet rebounded (pun intended) in incredible fashion to make the tournament both seasons. And we were so damn close to knocking off the #1 seed a month ago. Sure I wish we were a legit national championship contender but that's not even the case in football where we invest hundreds of millions of dollars. One time we sniffed the CFP.
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