CanyonAg77 said:
As an aviation buff with no military experience, I love to see pilots showing off their aircraft.
While I'm glad they got reinstated, how do yo military folks feel about local commanders being overridden by the War Department? On one hand, I like when the SecWar rights wrongs. On the other, looks like you should trust your local commanders.
agree…Pete never had command at any level. Probably feels good to be cool for the guys.bigtruckguy3500 said:CanyonAg77 said:
As an aviation buff with no military experience, I love to see pilots showing off their aircraft.
While I'm glad they got reinstated, how do yo military folks feel about local commanders being overridden by the War Department? On one hand, I like when the SecWar rights wrongs. On the other, looks like you should trust your local commanders.
I don't like it. There are formal processes and investigations that should occur. At the very least, let those play out.
Further, it would be one thing if they did everything by the book and got in trouble for something out of their control. But when they purposely broke the rules to do something cool, and get a "get out of jail card" from SecDef, it sets a bad precedent. Especially when it becomes a pattern for him interfering.
If the next time someone thinks they can pull a stunt and get away with it, but there's a mishap instead, how many people cheering this on are going to be advocating for the pilot to get his "get out of jail card," especially before a complete investigation?
F4GIB71 said:
Comments from SC Governor are spot on
https://www.facebook.com/share/1JDfrPuo31/?mibextid=wwXIfr
12th Man said:
I disagree with both of you. In general terms, a crime requires a victim or an aggrieved party; both of which are absent in this situation. The military's "Search for the Guilty" is a legendary thing, driven as it is by both dogma and history. There is & was nothing to investigate here, though: dudes broke the rules, but NObody got hurt by it. Rather than see these intrepid few punished "bc that's how we roll", SecWar correctly took the decision away from the lower echelon & commanded fido. I like it. Just my $.02.
sorry, they weren't flying in the jungles of Vietnam…I'd be all about this flying there.12th Man said:
Better to be unwise than a sanctimonious, perfumed prince. These aviators deserved what they got from Secretary Hegseth.
interesting insight…this was not about a warrior showing his bravery - he just misjudged the turn. No need to go big on punishment, but errors have consequences in that squadron. Lives on the line with each maneuver.bigtruckguy3500 said:
Good insight, I think. As I thought, I don't know if they realized how low they were going, or slipped below what their intended altitude was. Of course, I'm not a pilot, I just pretend to be one when they'll let me fly.
12th Man said:
I disagree with both of you. In general terms, a crime requires a victim or an aggrieved party; both of which are absent in this situation. The military's "Search for the Guilty" is a legendary thing, driven as it is by both dogma and history. There is & was nothing to investigate here, though: dudes broke the rules, but NObody got hurt by it. Rather than see these intrepid few punished "bc that's how we roll", SecWar correctly took the decision away from the lower echelon & commanded fido. I like it. Just my $.02.
12th Man said:
Does it look to you like these guys were flying backwards under a bridge? The subject fly-by is to the mishap you relate what a shoplifted Snickers bar is to capital murder.
These Army Aviators were finna be skinned & made an example of, which is ruinous. We no longer operate in the understanding military milieu wherein Passed Midshipman Ernest King can stand on the quarterdeck, barf over the side and still become our first Fleet Admiral. In today's navy, Ensign Chester Nimitz would've been cashiered for running his destroyer onto a sandbar in Manila Bay.
It's okay to not see things my way, but I agree with SecWar: imco, the sin deserves neither the process nor the penance our zero-defect military mindset routinely demands.
bigtruckguy3500 said:12th Man said:
Does it look to you like these guys were flying backwards under a bridge? The subject fly-by is to the mishap you relate what a shoplifted Snickers bar is to capital murder.
These Army Aviators were finna be skinned & made an example of, which is ruinous. We no longer operate in the understanding military milieu wherein Passed Midshipman Ernest King can stand on the quarterdeck, barf over the side and still become our first Fleet Admiral. In today's navy, Ensign Chester Nimitz would've been cashiered for running his destroyer onto a sandbar in Manila Bay.
It's okay to not see things my way, but I agree with SecWar: imco, the sin deserves neither the process nor the penance our zero-defect military mindset routinely demands.
The Marines have something called a FFPB, or field flight performance board. The Navy has a FNAEB, or Field Naval Aviator Evaluation Board. These are administrative and are fact finding investigations to look into factors that could have led to poor judgment or professionalism on the part of the aviator. They are always convened when there is a class A/B mishap, but also convened at the direction of the CO if professionalism and judgement are a concern.
I have seen, and been a part of, several FFPBs, where there was no "punishment" for the pilot. In fact, the opposite, the whole goal was to determine if they made a mistake, why they made that mistake, and if there is a way to remediate them and keep them flying.
I suspect the Army has something similar. I suspect there would have been an investigation, and the facts of the investigation would have shown why it happened, if they deviated from the flight as briefed, any potential safety violations, and whether those pilots should remain in flight status, be put in probation, or lose flight status, or lose their wings.
I doubt they would have been put in probation. But my doubt they would have been put in probation holds about as much weight as your thought that they were "finna be skinned & mad an example of."
