Blackhawk collides with American Airlines flight

2,907 Views | 35 Replies | Last: 23 days ago by F4GIB71
Aggie Therapist
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1:36a, 1/30/25
AG
Looks like three Soldiers reported onboard the Blackhawk for training.

That means two pilots and one crew chief.

The amount of Blackhawk crashes are getting ridiculous. They need to launch a serious investigation to that platform.

I have lost 4 friends in three different crashes over the span from 2020-2024. 2 of my best friends were piloting a Blackhawk on a resupply mission that went down overseas, one buddy was killed when two Blackhawks collided at night during training at Campbell and one was in the 160th and his bird went down overseas too.

My heart goes out to all involved. Hopefully the Army does something.
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CharlieBrown17
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1:59a, 1/30/25
AG
Absolutely ****ing wild.

I just landed in yokota and we got a TA on short final from a UH-1 in the pattern and we were *****ing about that until we saw the videos and reports out of DCA on the crew bus.

I can't imagine, especially for the families of those involved given how widespread the videos are already.
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OldArmyCT
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4:23a, 1/30/25
AG
Supposedly 4 survivors were pulled from the water. Nobody likes to speculate but the video looks like it is the Blackhawk's fault.
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JA83
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10:47a, 1/30/25
AG
The air space around Reagan National (DCA) is highly congested and the urban light pollution from Crystal City is intense. If I remember correctly, just after 9-11, the FAA tried to either close it or limit the numbers of aircraft that could use it. Congress didn't like that because the commute to from Capitol Hill to Reagan is far shorter than to Dulles or BWI, so the FAA was forced to keep it open/unrestricted. Not sure why a Blackhawk was in that airspace, but there is a VIP flight detachment at Ft. Belvoir just down river.
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Naveronski
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In reply to JA83 • 11:08a, 1/30/25
AG
Helicopter was flying along route four, common for helicopter traffic in the area. Lots of helo flights around DC.

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Naveronski
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In reply to Aggie Therapist • 11:09a, 1/30/25
AG
Aggie Therapist said:
The amount of Blackhawk crashes are getting ridiculous. They need to launch a serious investigation to that platform.

My heart goes out to all involved. Hopefully the Army does something.

This wasn't the airframe though; this was pilot error.
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cavscout96
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In reply to Naveronski • 12:33p, 1/30/25
AG
Naveronski said:
Aggie Therapist said:
The amount of Blackhawk crashes are getting ridiculous. They need to launch a serious investigation to that platform.

My heart goes out to all involved. Hopefully the Army does something.

This wasn't the airframe though; this was pilot error.
Agreed, not an airframe issue, but I'd wait for NTSB before stating emphatically largely because of the visibility.

Yes, the pilot has ultimate responsibility to see what's around him, but what on earth was ATC (not) doing to deconflict this airspace? I'd like to see that side too before putting it all on the pilots.

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BQ78
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In reply to cavscout96 • 2:19p, 1/30/25
AG
ATC warned him twice and got confirmation that he saw the traffic but it sounds like it might have been #2 for landing he was seeing.
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cavscout96
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In reply to BQ78 • 2:31p, 1/30/25
AG
BQ78 said:
ATC warned him twice and got confirmation that he saw the traffic but it sounds like it might have been #2 for landing he was seeing.
have not heard the ATC recording yet.

ATC warned the Helo or the Jet?
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Aggie Therapist
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In reply to Naveronski • 2:40p, 1/30/25
AG
Naveronski said:
Aggie Therapist said:
The amount of Blackhawk crashes are getting ridiculous. They need to launch a serious investigation to that platform.

My heart goes out to all involved. Hopefully the Army does something.

This wasn't the airframe though; this was pilot error.


I guess what I meant was overhaul of the pilot program for Blackhawks. My buddies deaths in the Sinai and Campbell were all pilot errors
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BQ78
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In reply to cavscout96 • 2:52p, 1/30/25
AG
The Helo. The ATC recording is on the politics thread. I'm sure the ATC person will carry some guilt that he could have done more but it sounded like he did enough.

The big mystery is why the Blackhawk violated the altitude restrictions for the airspace. I also wonder why he was off course a little and over the river but that was not a major contributing factor but both together make me wonder if they were having equipment issues and too focused on those versus flying the aircraft.
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F4GIB71
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2:57p, 1/30/25
I had a thought that I've not seen addressed. If you see another aircraft, and it is moving on the canopy (up/down/left/right), you are not on a collision course. If it is not moving, you are on a collision course. Flying over an area with so many lights, it is possible that they saw the lights of the other aircraft but, since it was not moving, it blended in to all the other lights.
F4GIB71
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Aggie Therapist
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2:59p, 1/30/25
AG
I'm in a group chat. One buddy is a Blackhawk pilot and the other is an American Airlines pilot. It's been a great discussion with them. This was pointed out as well:
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USAFAg
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In reply to F4GIB71 • 4:52p, 1/30/25
AG
F4GIB71 said:
I had a thought that I've not seen addressed. If you see another aircraft, and it is moving on the canopy (up/down/left/right), you are not on a collision course. If it is not moving, you are on a collision course. Flying over an area with so many lights, it is possible that they saw the lights of the other aircraft but, since it was not moving, it blended in to all the other lights.


Very good point on changing/not changing aspect and getting lost in the light clutter. Then the PIC potentially getting "target fixation" on the wrong a/c.

12thFan/Websider Since 2003
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strbrst777
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7:17p, 1/30/25
Helicopter should not have in the zone. a high traffic zone for commercial aircraft. The Army will put a stop to it; probably already has.
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ArmyAg2002
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In reply to Naveronski • 7:52p, 1/30/25
AG
Naveronski said:
Aggie Therapist said:
The amount of Blackhawk crashes are getting ridiculous. They need to launch a serious investigation to that platform.

My heart goes out to all involved. Hopefully the Army does something.



This wasn't the airframe though; this was pilot error.


So were 2 of the other crashes mentioned. I'm not familiar with the 160th crash.
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ArmyAg2002
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In reply to strbrst777 • 7:57p, 1/30/25
AG
strbrst777 said:
Helicopter should not have in the zone. a high traffic zone for commercial aircraft. The Army will put a stop to it; probably already has.


It's a helicopter transition route to move around DC. Many helicopters from all services, government agencies and local law enforcement use those routes.
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Aggie Therapist
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In reply to ArmyAg2002 • 8:01p, 1/30/25
AG
Happened over the Mediterranean Sea.

I knew Andrew from a prior mission. RIP.
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Smeghead4761
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In reply to USAFAg • 10:56p, 1/30/25
USA*** said:
F4GIB71 said:
I had a thought that I've not seen addressed. If you see another aircraft, and it is moving on the canopy (up/down/left/right), you are not on a collision course. If it is not moving, you are on a collision course. Flying over an area with so many lights, it is possible that they saw the lights of the other aircraft but, since it was not moving, it blended in to all the other lights.


Very good point on changing/not changing aspect and getting lost in the light clutter. Then the PIC potentially getting "target fixation" on the wrong a/c.
I've seen that speculated elsewhere - that the helo pilot was looking at the wrong jet.

From what I've seen, ATC asked PAT-25 (helo) if he saw the jet, and PAT said he did. ATC then instructed PAT to pass behind the jet.

From what I've seen, that was the last transmission before the crash.

It would thus make sense that PAT was looking at the wrong jet.
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Hey Nav
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1:21a, 1/31/25
AG
Posted this on the Politics forum before I saw this thread:

Quote:
Listened on CNN to a former Black Hawk pilot who was a Company Commander in the same unit as the downed helicopter. He said he had flown that route too many times to count.

He said that the procedure is to contact Reagan Tower at "Key Bridge". I looked on google maps and guess that would refer to the Francis Scott Key Bridge a couple of miles north. He said that you do not proceed past Key Bridge without Tower's permission, and Tower may tell you to speed up or slow down at times.

So I learned something...

Also, I wonder where IDTEK fix is located in relation to the river. Is it prior to crossing the river and thus also the Helicopter route? As previously mentioned, IDTEK minimum altitude is 490' . My eyes are not good enough to tell by looking at the approach plate.
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to strbrst777 • 4:32a, 1/31/25
AG
strbrst777 said:
Helicopter should not have in the zone. a high traffic zone for commercial aircraft. The Army will put a stop to it; probably already has.
Congress loves having the airport minutes away, else it would have heen closed years ago.

Perhaps the real solution is moving commercial traffic to Dulles. I think the Metro goes out there now, would be an easy commute
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OldArmyCT
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4:53a, 1/31/25
AG
I flew helicopters in the Army for 20 years, albeit a long time ago. Blackhawks didn't have TCAS when I flew them. That said speculating on the cause of a crash is usually an exercise in futility unless it's obvious. I've never flown out of Davison but that chart appears to show a published route with a max altitude of 200'. I've seen reports the crash happened at 350'. 150' separation is too little but flying 150' too high is a problem. A big problem. ATC was understaffed, that's not unusual but could have made things lax in the control room. A descending aircraft and an oncoming ascending aircraft on a collision course is another problem, especially if, as has been reported, the UH-60 was under NVG. The light pollution alone makes me wonder if that is true or not. Way too many questions here.
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ArmyAg2002
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In reply to OldArmyCT • 5:29a, 1/31/25
AG
OldArmyCT said:
I flew helicopters in the Army for 20 years, albeit a long time ago. Blackhawks didn't have TCAS when I flew them. That said speculating on the cause of a crash is usually an exercise in futility unless it's obvious. I've never flown out of Davison but that chart appears to show a published route with a max altitude of 200'. I've seen reports the crash happened at 350'. 150' separation is too little but flying 150' too high is a problem. A big problem. ATC was understaffed, that's not unusual but could have made things lax in the control room. A descending aircraft and an oncoming ascending aircraft on a collision course is another problem, especially if, as has been reported, the UH-60 was under NVG. The light pollution alone makes me wonder if that is true or not. Way too many questions here.


Hawks don't have TCAS.

We have both green and white goggles now. I generally prefer the white in the boonies, but as you come back in towards a city they wash out quite a bit. With the amount of light in DC , the green would wash out, too.

When ATC asks me to look for traffic they give me a distance and direction. Not sure if ATC is required to do that or not. In the video I saw there is another aircraft parallel to the one that was hit. I wonder if the -60 crew saw that jet and thought it was the one they were looking for.

This is pure speculation on my part. I'm guessing the pilot on the controls was in the right seat and the crew chief was sitting on the right side while the pilot managing the flight was in the left. The pilot managing would have been navigating and talking on the radio while trying determine which aircraft they were looking for. The pilot flying would have been trying to find the other aircraft too, but would have been in a more difficult position to see across the cockpit. There is also a confirmation bias. When you're looking for an aircraft and one of you sees it, you both end up concentrating on that aircraft to avoid it.

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BQ78
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In reply to OldArmyCT • 8:00a, 1/31/25
AG
I haven't heard that confirmed about the NVGs but people are talking about it (probably out their ass). Agree with you that it would have been a strange environment to be doing that in.
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Outlaw0206
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In reply to BQ78 • 8:10a, 1/31/25
AG
BQ78 said:
I haven't heard that confirmed about the NVGs but people are talking about it (probably out their ass). Agree with you that it would have been a strange environment to be doing that in.


Honestly up the river (before key bridge) and down the river (after airport), there is not near the light pollution. Being that this was an eval, I would not be shocked if they kept NVGs down. I think NVG hours will also give us an idea of experience with them. I would say you really aren't comfortable with the lack of vision under NVGs until you have near 80-100 hours.
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CharlieBrown17
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In reply to Outlaw0206 • 12:04p, 1/31/25
AG
Outlaw0206 said:
BQ78 said:
I haven't heard that confirmed about the NVGs but people are talking about it (probably out their ass). Agree with you that it would have been a strange environment to be doing that in.


Honestly up the river (before key bridge) and down the river (after airport), there is not near the light pollution. Being that this was an eval, I would not be shocked if they kept NVGs down. I think NVG hours will also give us an idea of experience with them. I would say you really aren't comfortable with the lack of vision under NVGs until you have near 80-100 hours.


Hours and recency too, fixed wing wide body but NVG flying is way harder to stay good at with less flying compared to white light
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OldArmyCT
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12:51p, 1/31/25
AG
I've read a few not-named-Trump sources that the BH was at 350' which is 150' above the published. That's a big error in that space. In Vietnam the USAF had a runway at Tuy Hoa running E-W. The procedure when transiting was to cross midfield at 250' going N-S or vice versa. If we got higher or lower the tower would let us know. I'm sure altitude determination has improved since then.
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ArmyAg2002
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In reply to Outlaw0206 • 4:56p, 1/31/25
AG
Outlaw0206 said:
BQ78 said:
I haven't heard that confirmed about the NVGs but people are talking about it (probably out their ass). Agree with you that it would have been a strange environment to be doing that in.


Honestly up the river (before key bridge) and down the river (after airport), there is not near the light pollution. Being that this was an eval, I would not be shocked if they kept NVGs down. I think NVG hours will also give us an idea of experience with them. I would say you really aren't comfortable with the lack of vision under NVGs until you have near 80-100 hours.


If it were me we would keep the NVGs on and look underneath as needed to check for colored lights, weather, etc. I keep them on when flying in and around large cities.
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Aggie Therapist
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6:43p, 1/31/25
AG
You guys have surpassed my knowledge of airframes already.

I just wait in PZ posture and get onboard when the crew chief tells me too!

Infantry's UberAir!
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Jock 07
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 9:51a, 2/2/25
AG
CanyonAg77 said:
strbrst777 said:
Helicopter should not have in the zone. a high traffic zone for commercial aircraft. The Army will put a stop to it; probably already has.
Congress loves having the airport minutes away, else it would have heen closed years ago.

Perhaps the real solution is moving commercial traffic to Dulles. I think the Metro goes out there now, would be an easy commute

Yup the silver line runs out there now. I think it's been almost a decade running out there now.
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HollywoodBQ
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In reply to Jock 07 • 1:09p, 2/3/25
AG
Jock 07 said:
CanyonAg77 said:
strbrst777 said:
Helicopter should not have in the zone. a high traffic zone for commercial aircraft. The Army will put a stop to it; probably already has.
Congress loves having the airport minutes away, else it would have heen closed years ago.

Perhaps the real solution is moving commercial traffic to Dulles. I think the Metro goes out there now, would be an easy commute

Yup the silver line runs out there now. I think it's been almost a decade running out there now.
Definitely not a decade.

When my daughter was going to VMI, there was a bus connection for the last bit of the trip to Dulles.

An Internet search says the train station serving Dulles finally opened November 15, 2022.
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74OA
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12:56p, 2/4/25
AG
Tragic. The helo crew was well-experienced.

"Koziol confirmed that the instructor pilot in command of the aircraft had logged 1,000 flight hours and the other pilot had 500 hours under their belt."

AVIATORS
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BQ78
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In reply to 74OA • 1:03p, 2/4/25
AG
Is that a lot? By USAF flight time, it is not.
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74OA
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In reply to BQ78 • 1:19p, 2/4/25
AG
BQ78 said:
Is that a lot? By USAF flight time, it is not.
Not for long-haul aircraft which rack up many hours, but for USAF fighters those would be experienced pilots.
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ArmyAg2002
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In reply to BQ78 • 5:23p, 2/4/25
AG
BQ78 said:
Is that a lot? By USAF flight time, it is not.


I've been flying Kiowas and Blackhawks for 15 years. I have just over 2000 hours. Nearly a quarter of that came from a trip to Afghanistan. The IP is experienced.
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