We need visionaries who will prepare the military for future wars. It can be hit or miss.

Quote:

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We won WW2 with no more than 7 four star generals

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Yes, there are many more 4 star officers now, with a much smaller force than we had in WW2.

But for historical purposes, there were seven 5 stars (Army and Navy) in WW2. Omar Bradley and Bull Halsey became a 5 stars after the war was over, I believe.

I could list maybe 20 more 4 stars in WW2.

90% who were promoted to 4 star after the war was won (there was a rash of promotions during March 1945). So they weren't 4 Star when they fought and won the war. Patton wasn't even promoted until April 14, 1945.

Ok. Of the SECDEFs who were retired generals. What were their pros and cons?

Trinity Ag said:

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Tanker123 said:

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cavscout96 said:

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Tanker123 said:

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SECDEF entails someone with executive experience and preferably retired general officers.

This is what he said: "First of all, you've got to fire the chairman of the Joint Chiefs," Hegseth said, referring to Gen. Charles Q. Brown Jr. "Any general, any admiral, whatever," who was involved in diversity, equity and inclusion programs or "woke s---" has "got to go," Hegseth said."

I find it interesting many allude to a woke culture in the military, but I have yet to see evidence of it.

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Since WWII there have been 32 Secretaries or Acting Secretaries.

THREE have been former Generals. the Secdef position is about civilian control of the Defense Department.

Other SecDefs have ranged from SGT - LT - LTCDR - COL Most of those were WWII veterans and a couple of Vietnam veterans with only a handful of field grade /career service members.

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When generals retire, they are civilians. I think the CINC is civilian as well. lol

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Yes, and no.

Retired GOs are civilians in some ways, but remain generals, and on the rolls -- and have restrictions that other vets do not.

And it is has been a long-term norm to NOT have former 4-stars as SECDEF -- in part because they are naturally parochial toward their former service and tend to bias toward the uniform vs the civilian side.

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Also


Less than 10% of SecDefs have been flag officers.

This needs to be updated.





Nearly three in 10 defense secretaries never served in the nation's Armed Forces
With Leon Panetta slated to be the nation's 23rd Secretary of Defense this summer, the U.S. Army will have yielded its first head of the Defense Department since the mid-1990s.
Panetta served in the Army from 1963 to 1965, exiting with the rank of First Lieutenant.

Of the 21 men who have been appointed Secretary of Defense over the last 64 years, seven have come from the Navy, with seven from the Army, and one from the Air Force. (With Donald Rumsfeld, who served 13th and 21st defense secretary, counted just once for the Navy).

More than one in four defense secretaries, however, never served in the Armed Forces, or six of 21 (29 percent).

Four of these six men without military service were appointed by Republican presidents: Charles Wilson (Eisenhower), Neil McElroy (Eisenhower), James Schlesinger (Nixon), and Dick Cheney (George H.W. Bush).
Harold Brown (appointed by Carter) and William Cohen (Clinton) also never served. (Brown had been a consultant to the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board from 1956-1957, a member of the Board from 1958 to 1961, and Secretary of the Air Force from 1965 to 1969).

Of the seven defense secretaries who have served in the Army, five achieved a higher rank than Panetta's First Lieutenant: George Marshall (Five-Star General), Robert McNamara (Lieutenant Colonel), Louis Johnson (Captain), Caspar Weinberger (Captain), and Les Aspin (Captain).

Elliot Richardson, who was Secretary of Defense for less than four months in 1973, also was a First Lieutenant in the Army, while Clinton appointee William Perry was an enlisted man in the Army Corps of Engineers just after World War II and went on to reach the rank of Second Lieutenant in the Army Reserves in the 1950s.
The Air Force has been represented by two well-known wartime defense secretaries: Kennedy appointee Robert McNamara (1961-1968) who headed the DoD at the beginning of the Vietnam War (and served in the U.S. Army Air Forces) and current Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

Naval alumni are James Forrestral (1947-1949), Robert Lovett (1951-1953), Thomas Gates (1959-1961), Clark Clifford (1968-1969), Melvin Laird (1969-1973), Frank Carlucci (1987-1989), and Donald Rumsfeld (1975-1977, 2001-2006) who also served in the Naval Reserves.

World War II veterans Elliot Richardson and Melvin Laird were Purple Heart recipients while Robert McNamara received the Legion of Merit. George Marshall earned a Distinguished Service Medal as well as a Silver Star.

The guys at The Dispatch (forget which one...Kevin Williamson or Jonah Goldberg probably) had a great comment on Hegseth I agree with.

(Loose quote) "There is absolutely a role for a disrupter like Hegseth at DOD. Have him be undersecretary for recruiting and anti-wokeness. But the SECDEF needs to understand how to manage a massive bureaucracy and do it skillfully. And Hegseth's qualification for that are sorely lacking."

Trump support waivering? NYT

The fact that "people with knowledge of his thinking" are sharing this with the media is telling.

DeSantis would be a stellar pick - great executive experience at a high level, outstanding administrator, firm grasp of crisis management, bona fides in anti-DEI, & a GWOT veteran…and a family man without serious baggage in his personal life. Easy confirmation.

This might just be political theater coming from the anti-Hegseth camp in DC, though.

Agree on DeSantis...but would he want it? If he still wants to be POTUS, doesn't seem like a good move.

Ol Jock 99 said:

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Trump support waivering? NYT

The fact that "people with knowledge of his thinking" are sharing this with the media is telling.

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Ah yes,. unnamed sources at the NYT. Completely credible

Tango.Mike said:

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Tanker123 said:

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Ok. Of the SECDEFs who were retired generals. What were their pros and cons?

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Cons - they're parochial, they come in with pet projects, they tend to wear their old rank among their new subordinates and staffers, they rarely have any education or experience outside of the machine

Marshall was a genius but an odd case since he was kinda running the War Dept already as Chief. Mattis was a monk but couldn't or wouldn't step out of his GO brain to become a civilian. I've known Lloyd Austin personally since he was a Colonel… there aren't many people who know him that would select him for much of anything

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Thanks for your input.

I would put my money on Hegseth not becoming SECDEF.

Tango.Mike said:

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I've known Lloyd Austin personally since he was a Colonel… there aren't many people who know him that would select him for much of anything

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this is a big wow for me. don't know him like you obviously but it seems like a big move from O-6 to in charge of the DoD and "select him for anything."

edit....that was a tanker quote.

Hincemm said:

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Tango.Mike said:

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I've known Lloyd Austin personally since he was a Colonel… there aren't many people who know him that would select him for much of anything

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this is a big wow for me. don't know him like you obviously but it seems like a big move from O-6 to in charge of the DoD and "select him for anything."

edit....that was a tanker quote.

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WTF. I did not say that.

darnit...sorry about that. got my wires crossed.

Hincemm said:

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Tango.Mike said:

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I've known Lloyd Austin personally since he was a Colonel… there aren't many people who know him that would select him for much of anything

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this is a big wow for me. don't know him like you obviously but it seems like a big move from O-6 to in charge of the DoD and "select him for anything."

edit....that was a tanker quote.

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I know people who like him and think very highly of him as a person and a tactical leader.

I've also seen significant skepticism about his capacity as a strategic leader.

I don't think there is any doubt that him being SecDef is entirely due to what was going on around the country in 2020/2021.

Noblemen06 said:

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DeSantis would be a stellar pick - great executive experience at a high level, outstanding administrator, firm grasp of crisis management, bona fides in anti-DEI, & a GWOT veteran…and a family man without serious baggage in his personal life. Easy confirmation.

This might just be political theater coming from the anti-Hegseth camp in DC, though.

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I think DeSantis would be amazing at SecDef.

I am dubious he would be willing to leave Florida and prostrate himself to the incoming President.

But I don't know what his political calculations are. He is term limited, so he is out in 2026 anyway.

His options are to run for Senate to fill Rubio's seat in 2026, which will be awkward unless the temporary nom in January is someone unlikely to want to run for a full term.

The maneuvering between him and the VP will be interesting.

I found this interview enlightening - the smear campaign being Kavanaugh-esque is entirely believable in today's politics. Some policy talk toward the end.