Whoever thought giving jet jockeys stick time in helicopters was a good idea needs to find a job selling insurance. You can bet they weren't giving the Army guys F-35 time.
https://www.fox13now.com/news/fox-13-investigates/fox-13-investigates-how-a-colonel-crashed-a-utah-apache-helicopter-he-wasnt-qualified-to-fly?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1OrOS1lNXQzP4wLxplAL12TUQN1UHZ1HI1VKImfJB_Dtj0H8XuXBL7g_g_aem_6ZGwof8r_aBiPjn6HW5Jqg

This happens all the time. My old XO was a Huey pilot, he flew time in F18s. And jet guys would get flights in the Huey/Cobra from time to time.

Not sure about the Apache, but the Huey/Cobra are considered single pilot aircraft (even though there are two pilot seats). Which allows them to fly a non-qualified pilot and a qualified pilot.

I am not a pilot, but I've got probably at least 30 hours at controls of Hueys and Cobras. I suspect the warrant officer was not qualified as an instructor pilot. IPs go through specific training to know how to avoid mishaps from panicky student pilots.

I dunno if it should happen or not. But I'm glad I was allowed to fly.

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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This happens all the time. My old XO was a Huey pilot, he flew time in F18s. And jet guys would get flights in the Huey/Cobra from time to time.

Not sure about the Apache, but the Huey/Cobra are considered single pilot aircraft (even though there are two pilot seats). Which allows them to fly a non-qualified pilot and a qualified pilot.

I am not a pilot, but I've got probably at least 30 hours at controls of Hueys and Cobras. I suspect the warrant officer was not qualified as an instructor pilot. IPs go through specific training to know how to avoid mishaps from panicky student pilots.

I dunno if it should happen or not. But I'm glad I was allowed to fly.

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Apache does require a crew of 2. With the -58 gone all Army aircraft now require 2 pilots, except maybe the lokota.
I know in a -60 you need to pilots to perform one specific emergency procedure that you could get into. I also know no one who has ever actually run into the procedure.

Orientation flights are one thing, letting non-pilots fly is another. Especially is a tandem seater where you can't really see what's going on. I don't think the Blue Angels let their "guests" fly. When I was in it was prohibited, you could get permission to sit them in the seat but not to fly. An IP only logs IP time when he is on an authorized training flight. Ground guys, especially field grade officers, like to bully their way into stick time, it serves no purpose at all to do so. FWIW I had about 1200 or so IP hours in 3 different helicopters in the Army.

Allowing a non pilot to fly on an orientation flight is common, although something such as landing or flying formation, not so much. One of the nurses in my Guard unit (now my wife) got an F-4 flight (with one of my Aggie classmates). He let her have some stick time, but that is significantly different from hovering a helicopter.

ArmyAg2002 said:

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Apache does require a crew of 2. With the -58 gone all Army aircraft now require 2 pilots, except maybe the lokota.
I know in a -60 you need to pilots to perform one specific emergency procedure that you could get into. I also know no one who has ever actually run into the procedure.

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Yeah, I knew a few basic EPs. I could land in good weather conditions and stuff. But if anything serious happened, the plan was always for the pilot to take control and I'd pull out the checklist to help with any EPs.

Maybe I'll see if I can con myself into an Apache flight one day just to see how it compares to the Huey. Looks more roomy inside, that's for sure. I hear the 60 is easier to fly than the Huey also - better stabilization or something.

Do you know if the Apache's controls are direct or fly by wire? And are the controls additive if fly by wire?

OldArmyCT said:

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Orientation flights are one thing, letting non-pilots fly is another. Especially is a tandem seater where you can't really see what's going on. I don't think the Blue Angels let their "guests" fly. When I was in it was prohibited, you could get permission to sit them in the seat but not to fly. An IP only logs IP time when he is on an authorized training flight. Ground guys, especially field grade officers, like to bully their way into stick time, it serves no purpose at all to do so. FWIW I had about 1200 or so IP hours in 3 different helicopters in the Army.

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Yeah, I don't think any of the Blue Angel Aircraft have controls in the back seat. Do you think a pilot with training as an IP would have maybe been able to better anticipate the mistakes this colonel made? Or perhaps been quicker to correct?

Come to think of it, my pilots used to come grab me anytime they had to take a bird up for testing. Probably not the safest thing to have a non-qualified pilot (or even a non-pilot) in an aircraft that just came back from whatever maintenance was done.

My old XO was a WTI instructor. Once he was teaching me how to take the Huey in various "box" patters while hovering. Like all while facing one direction (left, backward, right forward), and doing the same but turning as you do it so you're always facing outboard, and other such things. Once I got into some oscillations and was starting to feel a little uncomfortable. Tried giving him back the controls, and he was like "nah, you got it." And I was able to fix myself. But in retrospect, I don't know if he should've done that.

But I did have fun with those guys. I learned how to do diving attacks in the Cobra, firefighting in the Huey, shoot out of the back of the Huey, and got to fly around all over Southern California and Japan. Good time.

Maybe a bit off topic but somewhat related. My Grandfather, CWO4 mechanic/maintainer in the Air Corps and then the Air Force, retired in the 60s and died in the 70s before I was born. Supposedly some of his buddies told my uncle that they (the maintainers) would occasionally take the planes and fly them to check out things after they were repaired. I found this to be quite far fetched but I also understand that it was an entirely different world back then. Any insight on if this is plausible?

Jock 07 said:

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Maybe a bit off topic but somewhat related. My Grandfather, CWO4 mechanic/maintainer in the Air Corps and then the Air Force, retired in the 60s and died in the 70s before I was born. Supposedly some of his buddies told my uncle that they (the maintainers) would occasionally take the planes and fly them to check out things after they were repaired. I found this to be quite far fetched but I also understand that it was an entirely different world back then. Any insight on if this is plausible?

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I wasn't there in the early 60's but I was a USAF dependent for 20 years and I've never heard this. In Vietnam just about the only non-pilots who got stick time were flying with LOH pilots but even then most LOH pilots removed the 2nd set of controls to allow the guy in the other seat more freedom of movement. Maintenance pilots often flew single pilot with a mechanic in the left seat and they got some time but it was almost exclusively straight and level. A quick way to lose your wings in the Army is to let an unauthorized passenger fly the controls, I can't speak for any other service and I won't even begin to say what happens in the Reserves or Guard units but nothing would surprise me.

When I initially enlisted way back in 1990, it was as an AeroScout Observer. I was told that as an enlisted dude, you would fly with a Warrant or an officer in a Kiowa. I was told that the enlisted dude was taught how the fly the Kiowa just in case the pilot was wounded or killed by ground fire, as this platform would fly low looking for the enemy.

I ended up coming in as a tanker, but I have always wondered if I would have been able to fly a Kiowa before the MOS was removed from the Army.

clarythedrill said:

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When I initially enlisted way back in 1990, it was as an AeroScout Observer. I was told that as an enlisted dude, you would fly with a Warrant or an officer in a Kiowa. I was told that the enlisted dude was taught how the fly the Kiowa just in case the pilot was wounded or killed by ground fire, as this platform would fly low looking for the enemy.

I ended up coming in as a tanker, but I have always wondered if I would have been able to fly a Kiowa before the MOS was removed from the Army.

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If you read my post above some AO's claim to have gotten stick time in Vietnam, that's probably true but most probably didn't BC you can remove the controls from the left side, giving the AO more freedom of movement.
The last thing you need at treetop level is some guy firing out the door with his foot jamming the pedals or his leg draped over the collective. Outside of MTP's I know of zero crew chiefs in my unit who got stick time, and the maintenance guys generally let some guys fly straight and level at altitude, but all we had were Hueys. The guys to ask are those in the 160th, they fly the Little Bird and they can tell you if the teach crews to fly or not, but even if they do their flying will almost never be described as good. Good enough maybe, but not good.

I tracked down a flight school bud who flew LOH's in Vietnam, asked if his AO could fly one. He said his guy had enough training from him to aim for an open field to crash in. He also said a few AO's might have been able to make some semblance of a running landing but he didn't know any who could even remotely hover. He also said most bad guy firing occurred at too low of an altitude for the AO, who was always leaning out the door and shooting, to even get on the controls before they hit the ground.
I flew Huey gunships, none of my back seat guys wanted to fly up front and they had enormous balls, way more than most of us wimpy pilots.

Thanks, I always figured it seemed a bit far fetched. This would've been mid to late 50s, maybe early 60s, at Randolph where my Mom grew up on base for a while. On a side note was down there for work back in Apr and a buddy of mine lives on base within spitting distance from the house she grew up in.

I've read books about WW2 that talked about chief mechanics test flying repaired planes or shuttling as needed.

I have flown a C-12 in the Army and I am not a pilot.