2 deployments there, Summer '09 and Fall '10 into Spring '11

I might let loose with my own opinions later, but wanted to see how everyone else felt?

Are you going to go Postal?

I have had a fairly lengthy essay on this bouncing around in my head for a while now

TL; DR version: trying to set up a Western-style government in Afghanistan was a colossal mistake, folly born of hubris. It was a project with very, very little chance of success from the start, and then we executed it poorly.

A far better course of action, IMHO, would have been to send in a punitive expedition to put the hurt on the Taliban, destroy all their heavy weapons, and make it clear to the Pakistanis (especially the ISI leadership) that we would go home and let them go back to their games inside Afghanistan once we had Bin Laden, et al. And make it clear to the ISI that we didn't much care about their messing around in Afghanistan, as long as al Qaeda was kept out of the country.

And then left once those conditions were met, and let the Afghans fight amongst themselves.

I do think that the .gov owes it to the 'terps and others who threw in with our misguided efforts to get them out of the country and safe from the Taliban.

Also a veteran.

I'm pretty mixed; it's complicated.
I'm glad we're out, but it feels like it's been wasted.
We gave them 20 years heard start on the Taliban, which they've squandered in a week.
We gave so many people more freedom than they've ever experienced.
We fought with our hands tied behind our back.
We're great at war, ****ty at peacekeeping.

I fought for the people to my left and right more than anything. Bringing them home was more important than any other political goal.

I've lost many more friends to suicide than to enemy fire.

I was there as a pilot in '13. I did my best to support our guys on the ground but there was no doubt we would be leaving. The only question was when and how bad/embarrassing would it be.

I am sad but not surprised. So many Afghans I met (be it ANA/ANP) had a laissez faire attitude towards security and were really just collecting pay.

Read Aalan94's analysis in Forum 16 or History Forum.

I have a childhood friend, who is USNA '70 and retired Navy. He flew helicopters off the embassy in Saigon. I can't imagine what's going through his mind today.

Biggest let down mentally, my deployment we lost 7 guys, in the span of a month and half, 4 were my platoon / BN the other 3 were grunt units I was attached too.

Personally I knew in '14 we should've been out, but seeing the actions on the news it's hard to wrap my mind around the fact that 7 good men truly died for nothing.

It was already a big let down when we drew up defensive plans for Leatherneck and built internal posts to withdraw and turn it over to ANA. Only to watch it get overrun shortly after we left. But this is a total mind ****.

Our top brass haven't learned the ****ing lessons from Vietnam, and it sounds like they they won't learn them from Afghan either

Agvet12 said:

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Biggest let down mentally, my deployment we lost 7 guys, in the span of a month and half, 4 were my platoon / BN the other 3 were grunt units I was attached too.

Personally I knew in '14 we should've been out, but seeing the actions on the news it's hard to wrap my mind around the fact that 7 good men truly died for nothing.

It was already a big let down when we drew up defensive plans for Leatherneck and built internal posts to withdraw and turn it over to ANA. Only to watch it get overrun shortly after we left. But this is a total mind ****.

Our top brass haven't learned the ****ing lessons from Vietnam, and it sounds like they they won't learn them from Afghan either

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Agreed. I am frustrated more than I can remember being in a long time. Maybe ever. My squad had 5 KIA alone back in '08. 3 of 16 Marines made it through that whole deployment from my squad.

What we are seeing is just the flaming out of one of the worst geopolitical failures in living memory. Losing a war sucks all the ass. Losing it from incompetency on our own side is maddening.

I'm not conflicted at all. It was all for nothing.

WE lost the war. Not Bush, Obama, Trump, or Biden. We did, all of us, you and I. We as a nation didn't ask ourselves what it would take to prevent another 9/11, or whether we were willing to pay what it cost.

What would have won it for us? I have my opinions. But I can say for certain what would not have worked, and that is what we did.

There was no ownership of this war. It didn't belong to the people; we let the professionals handle it. World War II was everyone's war. After Pearl Harbor America sent her sons overseas and didn't bring them back until the enemy surrendered unconditionally. Little old ladies back home rationed food and saved their frying oil. Germany and Japan, two centuries-old civilizations, were in ruins, and that was the price we were willing to pay.

Talk about strategy all you want. This might have worked, that might have worked. Nothing will ever work unless the people own this nation's wars.

World War II made us think we were invincible. Vietnam shattered that confidence. Desert Storm brought it back, and now here we are again. Saigon is falling, and I helped it fall. The nightmare is not over; Al-Qaeda will have their safe haven again.

All for nothing.

1st Generation Ag said:

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There was no ownership of this war. It didn't belong to the people; we let the professionals handle it. World War II was everyone's war. After Pearl Harbor America sent her sons overseas and didn't bring them back until the enemy surrendered unconditionally. Little old ladies back home rationed food and saved their frying oil. Germany and Japan, two centuries-old civilizations, were in ruins, and that was the price we were willing to pay.

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This is why I have long held that a large "professional" military is inferior. I want us to have a small force of experts who are capable of responding to low grade events quickly and ruthlessly, but also capable of training and leading a rapidly expanding force that can fight a global conflict. America may have the personnel and resources, but we are most effective in war when we are all united, engaged, and contributing 100% of our resources towards winning.

So kinda like the small Army we had at the outset of WWII...

Never happen. Too many insiders getting rich from the military industrial complex with zero skin in the game and zero real regard for dead and wounded Soldiers.

I apologize in advance if this is an ignorant question but Aalan94 referred to this in his post and I'd love some insight from those more knowledgeable than I am.

After WWII, we kept a presence in both Germany and Japan. After Korea, we kept troops in South Korea. Afghanistan is right in the middle of many of the major players that we don't necessarily get along with- Iraq, Iran, Syria to the west, Pakistan to the south, China a bit off to the east and Russia not all that far away to the North. It just seems to me that a small permanent presence at someplace like Bagram would have been a strategic advantage to many different scenarios. Why did we abandon it totally?

As a Vietnam veteran this looks like deja vu all over again. I understand the anger and frustration of those who served in Afghanistan, especially those who lost friends and loved ones over there. It took years before I was willing to admit that we had no business getting into the war in Vietnam and that the almost 60,000 men and women, including more that two dozen friends, who died in that war died for nothing.

In my opinion, we should have left Afghanistan as soon as Osama bin Laden escaped from Toro Boro. That was the reason we were told we went in there, and after that we had no rational reason to remain.

AggieBaseball06 said:

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I apologize in advance if this is an ignorant question but Aalan94 referred to this in his post and I'd love some insight from those more knowledgeable than I am.

After WWII, we kept a presence in both Germany and Japan. After Korea, we kept troops in South Korea. Afghanistan is right in the middle of many of the major players that we don't necessarily get along with- Iraq, Iran, Syria to the west, Pakistan to the south, China a bit off to the east and Russia not all that far away to the North. It just seems to me that a small permanent presence at someplace like Bagram would have been a strategic advantage to many different scenarios. Why did we abandon it totally?

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We have to. Germany, Japan, and Korea were all friendly countries that we conquered or protected. All three were accessible by sea, and in the case of Germany, bordered by allied countries. Afghanistan is landlocked, hostile, and surrounded by no allies of ours.

I don't know what it's like for Vietnam vets, but I can recognize an important difference. When Vo Nguyen Giap died, John McCain wrote a remembrance for him in the Wall Street Journal. He told the story of meeting Giap years after the war when he traveled to Hanoi to open economic relations with Vietnam. Giap was his point of contact, and he was very friendly and respectful. When McCain tried to bring up the war, Giap smiled and politely declined to discuss the subject. When the negotiations concluded, Vo shook his hand, smiled, and said "You were an honorable enemy."

I don't think I will ever have to fret over HGTV filming an episode in Afghanistan. Even the communists are more civilized than the Taliban.

I don't know how many vets have wanted to go back to Vietnam, but I have said I would love to go back to Afghanistan (in 20+ years) if it can be anything like Vietnam was 20+ years after the fall of Saigon.

After my time in service I returned to A&M and completed a geology degree. I had already taken my first major course before enlisting, so I knew a little. I didn't know a ton of what I was seeing, but now if I had the opportunity to go back I know what to be on the lookout for. Yes; the country is a ****hole, but it is also very beautiful through the right lens.

Veteran. Too young for Vietnam. Too old for Afghanistan and Iraq. Not deployed to others. Saw this coming when we went in there. Was pissed off then. Even angrier when we also went into Iraq and ignored troop strength requirements for both, doing it on the cheap. Not cheap now. Not in $$$$, lives, limbs, mental illness, PTSD, suicide. Tired of hearing politicians and MSM saying how surprised they are. The first has been getting briefings. The second has been reporting on how bad the government is and the Taliban gains. The people working with us and those with their own concerns panicked just like people did when we pulled out of Vietnam. Glad Trump and Biden are getting us out. Trump and Pompeo timed it right. It would have been either Trump's second term or another President's mess. Biden is taking the hit but he has a lifetime of success and errors already. He can take it. There are probably plans on a shelf somewhere gathering dust for how to evacuate our embassy, securing roads and the airfield. Probably required for every embassy. Pissed off at politicians getting sound bites out of someone else's misery. Mad at the Pentagon for not being honest but they never are. It may have been a waste but I don't think so. The Taliban lost the country for 20 years and learned about governing and world opinion. They see what modern education and medicine and law can do. They've seen what women can do. If they really follow the Koran, women can work, inherit property, own businesses and real estate. We did help people, educate kids, and mingle and a whole lot of our military are very good people. I believe good interactions pay off in ways we don't expect and may not see and it may be quite a while down the road. I don't see any special terrorist threat more than from many other countries including our own. The Taliban would lose the country again. That being said, I don't expect much from the Taliban. Parts of the country will be brutally run and the cities may be a little more sophisticated. Power and control. Maybe the desire to lose sanctions and join global markets will prevail over human rights violations like murder and sexual abuse. What I didn't know was that we still controlled the communication and maintenance and resupply and took that with us upon exit. Maybe that was planned in case equipment fell into the wrong hands, which it has. However, if we really expected them fight successfully, then it seems we would have made sure they at least had the choice to do those things. It's wrenching to watch and brings back feelings about the fall of Saigon all over again.

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How do you feel when you see shows like House Hunters showing young Americans looking for houses in Viet Nam? Tour groups going their , lots of expats living there. I'm of the age where I could've gone to fight but loved by college deferment so I could go to A&M. It seems really weird to me to see what looks like all the normalization that appears there.

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Actually, I hold no malice toward the Vietnamese. Even when I was over there, I never hated the Viet Cong nor the NVA. After all, they were fighting for what they believed as much as we were. And don't forget, it was their country. Likewise, I have no ill will toward those who visit or do business with the country. At some point I considered going back as a tourist, but just never got around to it. So, Vietnam is a part of my past. I'm proud of my service and I still grieve for the friends I lost over there, but at some point I realized that I had to move on.

AggieBaseball06 said:

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I apologize in advance if this is an ignorant question but Aalan94 referred to this in his post and I'd love some insight from those more knowledgeable than I am.

After WWII, we kept a presence in both Germany and Japan. After Korea, we kept troops in South Korea. Afghanistan is right in the middle of many of the major players that we don't necessarily get along with- Iraq, Iran, Syria to the west, Pakistan to the south, China a bit off to the east and Russia not all that far away to the North. It just seems to me that a small permanent presence at someplace like Bagram would have been a strategic advantage to many different scenarios. Why did we abandon it totally?

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Frankly, we defeated Germany and Japan and needed to stick around for a while to show them who the boss is. (that's a very simple and somewhat flippant explanation).
Japan provided some strategic benefit but Germany was absolutely the linch pin in Europe.
We had to have bases in West Germany for the Cold War versus the Soviets.

South Korea, to keep North Korea from attacking and to keep China at bay. Some strategic benefit.

Afghanistan doesn't provide us with any benefits of any kind.

They don't have a productive labor force.
They haven't invented anything (rug, hound maybe).
They don't really have any natural resources other than opium and apparently some lithium.

They don't have a strategic location that we can't get to some other way. We're starting to become better friends with India and we're allegedly friends with Pakistan. Obviously if we needed to fight Iran, the Saudis, Kuwaitis (they sort of owe us) and the Emiratis would be happy to help.

Afghanistan has never been a great country like Germany or Japan and they're never going to be one.

There is absolutely no upside for the USA to remain there. My opinion anyway.

Funny you mention Iran. What if we become backdoor allies against the common enemy, like we were in the lead up to boots on the ground in Afghanistan.

But, back to the OP. I was never there, but it's still disappointing to see. Primarily because it makes probably 19 out of the 20 years we were there seem like a big waste and exercise in futility.

My hope is that there is a half a generation or so of kids and young adults that remember what it was like living under a Taliban-less Afghanistan. Perhaps, they'll grow an organic movement in the country towards a more civilized government.

Also, hope the "new Taliban" that claims to have learned some lessons is actually sincere about what they're saying. It wouldn't surprise me if the big leaders at the top actually want to try and promote science, and more freedom, but I think the reality is that the current Taliban is more a collection of thuggish gangs that fell in under the Taliban flag to gain power and stake out their claim.

The concept of withdrawal from Afg doesn't bother me, but the nature of it sickens me.

Parents passing their children over a wall - never to see them again. Thousands of Americans left at the mercy of a ruthless enemy. Hostage taking and murder of Americans highly probable. Women shoved back into slavery. Desperate men falling off of C-17s. Allied individuals being executed. Their daughters being raped.

All because DC scum arrogantly thought they could sheath our military umbrella without personal consequence.

Yes, I know an orderly withdrawal would have destined Taliban takeover as well, but a military and civilian rout was absolutely avoidable.

Because the President felt there were 300,000 well trained and well armed Afghan soldiers and would be able to defend against a much smaller Taliban.

The President is also a complete idiot. Likewise for his advisors.

Why give up control of Bagram air base when Kabul is in a city? Giving up a tactical option is about the stupidest thing imaginable in hostile territory. I cannot even begin to articulate my disgust at the incompetence of this administration and its military chiefs along with the State Department and its faulty assumptions and failure to grant SIVs.

UTExan said:

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Why give up control of Bagram air base when Kabul is in a city? Giving up a tactical option is about the stupidest thing imaginable in hostile territory. I cannot even begin to articulate my disgust at the incompetence of this administration and its military chiefs along with the State Department and its faulty assumptions and failure to grant SIVs.

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too many betas involved in the military now..its hard to win a conflict when top brass is more concerned about pronouns!!!!

War 01: Don't pull your troops out when you still have about 15,000 Americans living there.
When you realize the bad guys have control of every air asset we gave the Afghans, bomb them.
Never trade an imprisoned Taliban leader (or 5) for a deserter.
Never release 5000 imprisoned bad guys for no reason.
Never elect a president with the cognitive ability of your grandpa who is already in assisted living.
My company in Vietnam was there for 5 years, we lost 52 men, 10 of them are still over there, somewhere. I'm dumbstruck by what is going on in Afghanistan today and have zero faith in the ability of our leadership to end this in any semblance of an orderly manner. And I'm dang glad I have no relatives left in the military.