Is the idea of the "Woke Military" legitimate?

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PanzerAggie06
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3:12p, 7/11/21
AG
With General Milley's recent comments before Congress concerning CRT there is a growing notion with many on the right that the military is going, or has gone, woke. For those of you who have served in the military what is your take on this?

I left the Army in 16' and the officer corps was, for the most part, extremely conservative. While I admit that things might have changed in the five years since I left I'm not sure its possible that the officer corps has shifted so heavily left in such a short period. Rather I believe there are a few high level military leaders who are merely parroting the ideas of the party currently occupying the Oval Office. And that this type of behavior has been going on for generations where some of the more ambitious General Officers attempt to earn brownie points by gaining favor with the powers that be.
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USAFAg
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6:20p, 7/11/21
AG
I retired out of uniform in 2013, but have continued to work for the DAF as a civilian. Your assessment is pretty close to correct. The military is probably the most EOE and merit based large employer in the country. All this woke pontificating by the political military leadership is just apple polishing than anything that will have any actual effect on the military as a whole.

12thFan/Websider Since 2003
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cavscout96
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In reply to PanzerAggie06 • 10:08p, 7/11/21
AG
PanzerAggie06 said:
With General Milley's recent comments before Congress concerning CRT there is a growing notion with many on the right that the military is going, or has gone, woke. For those of you who have served in the military what is your take on this?

I left the Army in 16' and the officer corps was, for the most part, extremely conservative. While I admit that things might have changed in the five years since I left I'm not sure its possible that the officer corps has shifted so heavily left in such a short period. Rather I believe there are a few high level military leaders who are merely parroting the ideas of the party currently occupying the Oval Office. And that this type of behavior has been going on for generations where some of the more ambitious General Officers attempt to earn brownie points by gaining favor with the powers that be.
Not sure the highlighted section is an accurate assessment for a good portion of FGOs and almost certainly not for the flag officers I've known.

Probably true for many, maybe even a large majority, of Company Grade Officers in some branches. Remember though, the rank and file and, to a degree, the officer corps are a reflection of the culture(s) from which they originate.
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PanzerAggie06
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In reply to cavscout96 • 10:38p, 7/11/21
AG
cavscout96 said:
PanzerAggie06 said:
With General Milley's recent comments before Congress concerning CRT there is a growing notion with many on the right that the military is going, or has gone, woke. For those of you who have served in the military what is your take on this?

I left the Army in 16' and the officer corps was, for the most part, extremely conservative. While I admit that things might have changed in the five years since I left I'm not sure its possible that the officer corps has shifted so heavily left in such a short period. Rather I believe there are a few high level military leaders who are merely parroting the ideas of the party currently occupying the Oval Office. And that this type of behavior has been going on for generations where some of the more ambitious General Officers attempt to earn brownie points by gaining favor with the powers that be.
Not sure the highlighted section is an accurate assessment for a good portion of FGOs and almost certainly not for the flag officers I've known.

Probably true for many, maybe even a large majority, of Company Grade Officers in some branches. Remember though, the rank and file and, to a degree, the officer corps are a reflection of the culture(s) from which they originate.


Having been in a combat arms branch and having gotten out as an O3 my interaction with GOs was definitely limited. And as a rule GOs aren't in the habit of discussing their political views with a Company Grade officer. I am close with my former BN commander who is now a 2 star and he most definitely leans right. I've been tempted to reach out to him and get his perspective on this topic but he didn't become a 2 star by being stupid so I'm guessing he might be tight lipped as to his opinions on such things.

It's definitely true that the non combat arms branches seem to have a more politically diverse make up than say the infantry and armor branches. Of the officers that I served with who would be described as "liberal" all were in non combat arms. However, as most of the higher commands (Division, Corps, FORSCOM, TRADOC, etc.) are almost always commanded by GOs that had been combat arms I would assume most of them would lean right even when giving lip service to more liberal concepts.
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neutics
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In reply to PanzerAggie06 • 11:20p, 7/11/21
AG
Here's my perspective as someone who was on active duty from 2004-2011 and still in the Reserves...short answer is yes at least the Army is becoming more woke.

For example, the official (DA) photo used to be a key part of your board file used as a basis for promotion, primarily intended to make sure you were not 300 pounds and at least looked like a soldier or officer. Now, like everything else, that was deemed racist and is taken off the board file going forward.

Have you seen the reports on the recent extremism training we all had to sit through? 3/4 of the examples were focused on white neo nazi types, which we all know are the real problem right?

Not to mention the transgender training my reserve unit was forced to report 95% complete and was our top priority for 3 months until Trump stepped in to cancel that initiative (which I believe is back now?)

Last, I'm a military academy grad and last year was surprised at the leftward bent of my class, based mostly on our facebook group and the vocal opinions of the minority maybe as many are/were afraid to speak out. I confronted them on what seemed to be a type of McCarthyism that was frankly not serving our class well (lots of hate and vitriol) and thankfully it's been better since then. For reference, many of my classmates are now in battalion command and certainly in positions of influence.

I'd like to hear an active duty perspective as the reserves is likely somewhat sheltered.
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MarathonAg12
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7:49a, 7/12/21
I'm a senior Captain and I can say that it's not a giant woke fest at my level and down. I'm an 11A. Most of the time political sound bites is good for a good laugh in the office and we leave it at that. We could care less about what the media says.
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CT'97
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11:29a, 7/13/21
AG
Bottom line up front, yes it's being over blown by attention *****s who think they have found a way to get eye balls and follows.

It seems to me that if you aren't 100% Trump all the time then you are "woke" and anybody who questions the Trump narrative is instantly questioned of being left leaning or progressive. This total black and white view of the political spectrum is being driven by the FOX/MSNBC opinion programs that want everyone either on their side or against them.

The reality is most people's political views are varied from issue to issue and few, <20%, are in fact 100% for everything one party or the other stands by.

Add to that the already diverse nature of the military, as Cavscout mentioned, and you have an easy misunderstanding.

I think the complexities of the current civil/military divide also adds to this lack of understanding. A little less than 8% of our country has ever worn the uniform and less than 2% severed post 9/11. Most people don't know someone personally who served post 9/11. When people don't have a personal connection it's easy to believe the rhetoric from the likes of evening opinion and rhetoric shows.


Texas A&M - 148 years of tradition, unimpeded by progress.
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redcrayon
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10:52p, 7/13/21
AG
It has definitely become a problem.

This is worth a read.

Microsoft Word - NAVY REPORT_FINAL.docx (senate.gov)
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cavscout96
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In reply to MarathonAg12 • 8:41a, 7/14/21
AG
MarathonAg12 said:
I'm a senior Captain and I can say that it's not a giant woke fest at my level and down. I'm an 11A. Most of the time political sound bites is good for a good laugh in the office and we leave it at that. We could care less about what the media says.
I would say that at your level and down is not what many are concerned about. GOs set policy and FGOs implement policy. If that policy is counterproductive to the readiness and effectiveness of our fighting forces, we have a problem.

Policies that create divisiveness in an environment that demands unity and teamwork are a dangerous proposition.
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Naveronski
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8:34a, 7/16/21
AG
I am in a couple "professional" Facebook groups for NCO's/senior NCO's.

I no longer participate in most of the discussions.

If you are not overly liberal/woke/BLM/etc, the vocal few would go after your career (or try to cancel you on the civilian side, if you've ETS'ed). These were your typical supply personnel.
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bigtruckguy3500
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10:26a, 7/20/21
I haven't noticed anything particularly "woke" at my last command. I'm currently in a non-deployable billet, so maybe people here might have more time to get philosophical and "woke."

There was a thread on here a while back about the removal of the promotion photos, and good points were made that regardless of how squared away you are, some people just don't look photogenic in uniform for one reason or another. I don't think that's particularly woke. I do recall the anti-extremism training that was mandatory in the aftermath of a violent mob that broke into the capital building. Multiple types of extremism were covered, ranging from the KKK, to Islamic extemists, to the boogaloo boys. Considering what had just happened, and that active duty are supposedly being recruited by groups, I don't really think that was woke either. There was a thread on this training as well if you want to look back.

I do believe that there are politicians out there that are attempting to use the concept of liberals infesting the military and making it woke as a political tool for their own personal gain. And I think they are enhancing the perception of something that isn't real.
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CharlieBrown17
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2:22p, 7/20/21
AG
Removal of the board photo makes a lot of sense to me. Hell, promotions should be completely data masked outside of career performance. Let your resume stand alone.

By nature of my career I spend a lot of time with enlisted and officers in lots of down time with nothing to do but talk. The farthest left I've encountered is left of center at most. A few Biden voters but none were felt confident about it and at least one has told me they regret it already. Predominately libertarian and right wing views.

Outside of the DoD wide trainings recently, I haven't heard or seen any political driven trainings/initiatives.

Active duty Air Force in a flying squadron.
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74OA
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5:03a, 7/21/21
AG
The previous official photo discussion: THREAD
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neutics
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In reply to CharlieBrown17 • 8:21a, 7/23/21
AG
CharlieBrown17 said:
Removal of the board photo makes a lot of sense to me. Hell, promotions should be completely data masked outside of career performance. Let your resume stand alone.

By nature of my career I spend a lot of time with enlisted and officers in lots of down time with nothing to do but talk. The farthest left I've encountered is left of center at most. A few Biden voters but none were felt confident about it and at least one has told me they regret it already. Predominately libertarian and right wing views.

Outside of the DoD wide trainings recently, I haven't heard or seen any political driven trainings/initiatives.

Active duty Air Force in a flying squadron.
On second thought yeah I'm fine with the board photo going away too for the reasons given. Main concern for me is the prevalence of incredibly overweight soldiers in the Army reserve and guard. Embarrassing.
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74OA
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In reply to neutics • 11:38a, 7/23/21
AG
neutics said:
CharlieBrown17 said:
Removal of the board photo makes a lot of sense to me. Hell, promotions should be completely data masked outside of career performance. Let your resume stand alone.

By nature of my career I spend a lot of time with enlisted and officers in lots of down time with nothing to do but talk. The farthest left I've encountered is left of center at most. A few Biden voters but none were felt confident about it and at least one has told me they regret it already. Predominately libertarian and right wing views.

Outside of the DoD wide trainings recently, I haven't heard or seen any political driven trainings/initiatives.

Active duty Air Force in a flying squadron.
On second thought yeah I'm fine with the board photo going away too for the reasons given. Main concern for me is the prevalence of incredibly overweight soldiers in the Army reserve and guard. Embarrassing.
Well before someone meets a promotion board, persistent overweight should already be documented in annual performance reports as noncompliance with physical standards.

If it takes a last-minute photo to show noncompliance to a board, then it's a unit leadership failure, imo.
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Naveronski
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In reply to 74OA • 9:52p, 7/23/21
AG
Annual performance?

You mean the (NC)OER I write myself?
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74OA
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In reply to Naveronski • 10:33p, 7/23/21
AG
Naveronski said:
Annual performance?

You mean the (NC)OER I write myself?
You just made my point about a failure of unit leadership. Promotion photos won't solve that larger problem.
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AggieEP
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In reply to Naveronski • 2:36p, 7/25/21
You may write the report, and we could debate for hours on who should write them, but whether the draft is written by the individual or the supervisor, the supervisor still determines the final product. I've had troops insist on writing their evals before, but I make it clear that's not the final version and I give them feedback on changes I make.

As far as wokeness, the military is much more woke than I think most would like to admit, but at it's core it remains a meritocracy for the most part. But we've heard grumblings over the past year because there has been confusing guidance from senior leaders on if we should still be embracing meritocracy. We were explicitly told to not say that we are color blind and only see the uniform when making decisions. But if not color blind, then what should we look at, the obvious would be a form of affirmative action, but as of now we don't have quotas, we're kind of in a gray area.
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cavscout96
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In reply to AggieEP • 8:38a, 7/26/21
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AggieEP said:
You may write the report, and we could debate for hours on who should write them, but whether the draft is written by the individual or the supervisor, the supervisor still determines the final product. I've had troops insist on writing their evals before, but I make it clear that's not the final version and I give them feedback on changes I make.

As far as wokeness, the military is much more woke than I think most would like to admit, but at it's core it remains a meritocracy for the most part. But we've heard grumblings over the past year because there has been confusing guidance from senior leaders on if we should still be embracing meritocracy. We were explicitly told to not say that we are color blind and only see the uniform when making decisions....
1. garbage, but wholly believable.

Quote:
....But if not color blind, then what should we look at, the obvious would be a form of affirmative action, but as of now we don't have quotas, we're kind of in a gray area.
2. Yes you do. They just are not "official"...yet. Go ask an O6 how the cut lines are drawn (and re-drawn) on promotion and command boards. Then go as a BDE-level S1 about about the quarterly reporting requirements that outline the promotion, award, and discipline data by race, gender, ethnicity, etc.

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