Tailgate88 said:

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Questions:

1) Who should I talk to at A&M about what his options would be if either wasn't accepted to West Point or he chose to go to A&M instead. I believe he would still want to take a contract and go into the military etc. I assume the military has a similar deal where they pay for your school etc. provided you are commissioned after graduation and agree to a certain number of years in the military.

2) The Aggie Network vs. being a West Point grad: compare and contrast please.

3) Any other experiences and advice are much appreciated. Obviously this is a huge decision for him and us, and I greatly value the input and advice from this forum.

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A West Point admission is a great honor and should always be treated as such. I have been in the Army for 6 years active duty and most of the answers I have deal with my interactions with my peers that graduated from West Point.

1. Obviously if he went to West Point his school is completely paid for. With A&M, the only way for that to happen would be if he received a scholarship of some sort. This could come in various forms. An ROTC 4 year scholarship is the only thing that would require him to do military service. Other scholarship opportunities exist through Texas A&M and the Corps of Cadets.

2. While West Point has a great network, I do not believe it is any near as great as the Aggie network. I don't mean that in a bad way at all. The thing with West Point is that everyone graduates and goes on active duty. People do various years of service, from 4-20 + and then leave. From what I have noticed, people that graduate from West Point are not great at networking at all. I don't know if it is because they have never had to do it while in college or what the case is, but it is not a strong point from them. I am a firm believer that relationships matter when it comes to being successful in the military and private job sector. A good amount of West Point grads I know do not seem to grasp that concept. They go to school for 4 years, it is academically rigorous, and they learn how to be a military leader. The part that is missing at West Point is how to interact with people that are not like you, the common public.

With A&M & the Corps, you get really great exposure to networking. Most of the people you work with in the classroom and around campus are going to leave school and not go to the military. These relationships you build while in school really set you up for success down the road. I have many friends from A&M that I graduated with who have told me when I am ready to leave the military that they will have a job waiting on me. I think there is just certain value from going to school with people who are not all going to the military and learning how to interact/ work with the common person that goes a long way.

3. I tell all my Soldiers that the military is not a lifetime commitment. There is a world and life beyond it. So ensure that you weight that as well. I have the upmost respect my peers from West Point. They get a world class education and I'm sure most of them have no issues getting a job beyond the military.

A&M provided me a college experience and allowed me to still excel as a leader. I would argue with anyone that the Corps produces better leaders than the service academies, IF you put the effort into it. The Corps allows you to fail and make decisions without an active duty CPT inspecting every decision. At West Point each company is provided a CPT that watches their every move. In the Corps you have 1 retired officer for 4 companies. Good & bad, but this allowed me to make mistakes as a leader and learn from them rather than having someone make every decision for me as a growing leader. It has paid off now because while my peers trip over themselves when trying to make a decision, I have been prepared for that.

I am happy to answer any questions you have & apologies if this is a little long. West Point or A&M, you can't go wrong. 2 great institutions that will set your son up for success no matter where life takes him.

Outlaw0206 said:

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2. While West Point has a great network, I do not believe it is any near as great as the Aggie network. I don't mean that in a bad way at all. The thing with West Point is that everyone graduates and goes on active duty. People do various years of service, from 4-20 + and then leave. From what I have noticed, people that graduate from West Point are not great at networking at all. I don't know if it is because they have never had to do it while in college or what the case is, but it is not a strong point from them. I am a firm believer that relationships matter when it comes to being successful in the military and private job sector. A good amount of West Point grads I know do not seem to grasp that concept. They go to school for 4 years, it is academically rigorous, and they learn how to be a military leader. The part that is missing at West Point is how to interact with people that are not like you, the common public.

With A&M & the Corps, you get really great exposure to networking. Most of the people you work with in the classroom and around campus are going to leave school and not go to the military. These relationships you build while in school really set you up for success down the road. I have many friends from A&M that I graduated with who have told me when I am ready to leave the military that they will have a job waiting on me. I think there is just certain value from going to school with people who are not all going to the military and learning how to interact/ work with the common person that goes a long way.

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Respectfully, this is not accurate so allow me to add my perspective as a USMA grad, with a masters from A&M.

The West Point network is flat out 'better' anywhere outside of Texas. Perhaps because you are not a grad you are likely not aware of the breadth or depth of the network that exists. I can reach out to a grad at virtually any company or industry and it's almost guaranteed they will respond and go out of their way to help you at least get an interview or connect you to the right people. My experience at Mays leveraging the vaunted Aggie network was about 50% of the time they would either ignore the request or respond politely and it would stop there. My wife is an A&M undergrad and is the first to admit West Point's network is superior...said no comparison in terms of the way I can make meaningful connections anywhere. Yes, the Aggie network is likely larger though nowhere near as powerful in terms of networking. West Point creates a much stronger shared experiences than A&M, even for those in the Corps, which translates into an unspoken trust among the select few that graduate.

I'd suggest the OP also search previous posts as this has been discussed to death. I've added my hopefully balanced perspective as someone who also taught on the ROTC faculty at A&M and admitted there are other advantages to that route vs. an academy. It all depends on your son's goals within the military and after service.

A&M is good. USMA is excellent.

The Aggie Network is good for waving hello within the Austin-Dallas-Houston triangle. It will not get you a job outside of Texas. I've gotten job offers from USMA grads because I taught there and I'm not even a grad. If you need prof the Aggie Network is a myth, read through the backbiting and hatred on the football forum.

A&M produces a lot of research. It does not care about teaching quality. USMA produces almost zero A-journal research. It cares exclusively about teaching quality. Before someone chimes in about research making you better in your field - I've got a PhD in finance, it doesn't mean I know any current case studies.

I graduated from A&M. The distribution of talent at USMA is orders of magnitude narrower - and shifted significantly right - than even the contract kids at A&M.

cavscout96 said:

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When did you teach at USMA? I have several accounts from close associates who also taught there that run counter to your assessment.

Admittedly, theses are from about 10 years ago, but they were pretty negative WRT quality of academics and rigor at that point in time. These weren't TAC officers either; academic classroom faculty in science and tech fields.

Things may have changed, but based on their comments, I'm not buying into the "WP is acadmecally a cut above" propaganda.

Also anecdotally, the distribution of high quality leaders is on par with the other commissioning sources.

One place where USMA absolutely excels...perpetuating the long gray line narrative.

In the end, in my experience, they're nothing particularly special, but they sure think they are and do a great job of blowing their own horn(s).

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I left within the last 3 years. I was a junior rotator (MAJ) when I retired unexpectedly.

I never mean to dump on A&M when I give my opinions on these threads. I had a great time at A&M and I think I learned a lot in the Corps.

I got to USMA because I was in a 4-star's (GEN Bob Cone and GEN Dave Perkins) CIG as a special assistant/speech writer. They had both taught at USMA and told me to go - I never even applied. I was like every other Aggie - I despised West Point and all its graduates. I even wrote a Military Review article about the economic wastes of West Point.

But after teaching there for 3 years, I openly admit I was wrong.

I remember taking CHEM 102 at A&M with Dr. Dwight Conway and 400 of my closest friends. At USMA, every class is capped at 18 students - adding a 19th student to a section requires written approval from the Dean (the 1-star). Where Dr. Conway's review sessions were held on the first Monday after the harvest moon at 7:39pm by his non-English speaking research assistants, ALL teachers are available at USMA. There is a written policy that all professors are available 24/7 for students. Cadets would call/text at midnight getting help on homework. I would hold review sessions before exams in the hockey team's study room.

Because of the small classes, extremely high touch ratio, faculty availability, and "duty" (students are required to turn in all assignments even if 10 weeks late for no credit because it is their duty; unexcused tardiness to class results in 5 marching hours), the learning is much higher than what I experienced at A&M. Which means the teachers can expect a lot more, too. The curriculum itself is absurd, with every cadet taking 17-21 hours each semester.

To the poster above that said not having a TAC is good. Trial and error with no guidance is folly. TACs at USMA get master's degrees in leadership development from Columbia before they start. Their jobs are to ensure that the trial and error (and there is a lot) are done correctly. Having a retired LTC from 20 years ago drop by every few weeks does not help you learn. Teachers are expected to contribute to leader development as well, including communication with TACs to report good and bad behavior. Nobody goes out as a company commander in the big Army and does trial and error to see what they can do well. There is a battalion XO, S3, and CDR to guide them. Not having someone watch over you to correct you is absolutely not development.

Have him talk to the MALO (Military Admissions Liaison officer) for Westpoint.

I am currently the equivalent for USAFA (ALO or Admissions Liaison Officer).

I recommend having back up plans:

Apply to ALL academies. It is not that much extra work. You have to get congressional or presidential nominations for all the academies...I say for apply to nominations for all the academies. You can turn down the academies you don't want to attend if offered admissions to multiple.

I would also apply to ROTC scholarships if serious about military service. -->more backup plans.

MOST IMPORTANT for academy applications...make sure to apply to all congressional nominations categories you are eligible for: national congressman (1), both national senators (2 & 3), Vice Prez (4), and presidential (5 if either parent is a veteran). This only increases your probability of nomination and admission to an academy.

My $0.02 after doing this USAFA admissions thing for the last 3 years.