Reconsidering the Air Force Warrant Officer
Army Aviation

Decent article. I never saw the Air Force study on Warrant Officers other than the CSM noting that the force already had technical experts. Noticed that RPAs will have enlisted...but is that across the RPA force like the Army with Shadow and Gray Eagle?

To add to it - not just active duty. Guard/Reserve is suffering as well. We have the same flying hour requirements as active duty, yet receive a fraction of the pay. Not only that, our civilian careers suffer trying to maintain hours for minimal pay scheduling around a full time (or more) job.

The Guard issue with sh***y commanders is even more prevalent - full timers stay in the same positions for years, and start making up these arbitrary "rules." Don't play by those rules? Your life is miserable. I will likely not re-up past my obligation because of the people - not the pay.

I planned on sticking it out to E5 when I was in the Guard to go WO, but couldn't stand it and got out as soon as my contract was up. Started flying for a living a few years ago on the civilian side and love it, wouldn't change a thing.

I don't think warrants would do anything to fix the current issue, there's more than enough potential commissionees that are going to the board for pilot right now.

The issue is not having the training pipeline to handle the numbers big blue wants. It's your classic government mismanagement of a resource, not seeing the problem quick enough, then not having the infrastructure for the fix when it's needed. UPT right now is like the roads in Austin, the bases might have been sufficient at one time but have lagged behind the population growth.

If the Air Force added warrant officers, I don't see that fixing people jumping ship at 10 years to fly commercial/DoD contract for more pay.

^^^ THIS.

The Air Force closed one too many pilot training bases when it BRAC'd Reese. Leadership seems to ignore any extra capacity for war... national trend item.

OP sounds like 42 alpha

Automated Chatbot said:

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OP sounds like 42 alpha

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Care to elaborate? I'm trying hard to see the connection...but maybe I'm too knuckledragger to get it. Got any opinion on the pilot shortage?

Something that has always puzzled me about the Air Force is their insistence that pilots must be commissioned officers. If you want to get a pilot with the best qualities, he/she may not have been fortunate enough to find their way to a commission.

UTExan said:

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Something that has always puzzled me about the Air Force is their insistence that pilots must be commissioned officers. If you want to get a pilot with the best qualities, he/she may not have been fortunate enough to find their way to a commission.

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This is one I hear all the time I don't necessarily get.

The army is the only branch that doesn't have all officer pilots and their non commissioned pilots are all warrants.

So if you want to make the discussion why does everyone besides the army want only officers pilots we can do that, but people seem to act like it's out of the norm that the Air Force has officer only pilots.

CharlieBrown17 said:

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I don't think warrants would do anything to fix the current issue, there's more than enough potential commissionees that are going to the board for pilot right now.

The issue is not having the training pipeline to handle the numbers big blue wants. It's your classic government mismanagement of a resource, not seeing the problem quick enough, then not having the infrastructure for the fix when it's needed. UPT right now is like the roads in Austin, the bases might have been sufficient at one time but have lagged behind the population growth.

If the Air Force added warrant officers, I don't see that fixing people jumping ship at 10 years to fly commercial/DoD contract for more pay.

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If the warrants are exclusively flying RPAs, I'm not sure that skill set is going be in demand by airlines.

Putting rated pilots on RPAs -- which they generally hate in my experience -- likely drives folks out of the Air Force.

I can see where making that a Warrant function could make that civilian jump more difficult.

Currently the discussion I've heard most is regular enlisted ranks for RPA and adding warrants for real airframes

With the shortage, there aren't current many (if any at all) rated pilots getting sent to RPAs

Supposedly though, there is high paying work on the outside for RPAs. Not my world, so I can't comment on how true that is or just bull**** to get people into drones.

CharlieBrown17 said:

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Currently the discussion I've heard most is regular enlisted ranks for RPA and adding warrants for real airframes

With the shortage, there aren't current many (if any at all) rated pilots getting sent to RPAs

Supposedly though, there is high paying work on the outside for RPAs. Not my world, so I can't comment on how true that is or just bull**** to get people into drones.

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What I know about it came from a readiness study I was part of in 2016, so it is old info -- at the time they were rotating pilots through Creech, and the dudes we talked to were not pleased with it.

Agreed that warrants flying fixed or rotary for the AF wouldn't fix pilots going private -- and it might be harder to keep them to commissioned guys.

I admit to having no clue what the civilian RPA market looks like -- but flying/landing Predators and Reapers seems unique. But maybe not.

I'm was a ground guy in the Army, so I'm making my comments from a limited knowledge base about the world of the pilot.

I'm not sure why people think that the AF going to a system that allows Warrants to be pilots is going to solve the pilot shortage. My take on it is that pilots in the Marines, Navy, and Air Force are leaving in enormous numbers because the military is, after over a decade of persistent conflict, in a state of transition that is severely impacting morale and training. Along with this you can fly with one of the major carriers and make a s**t ton more money and never have to worry about deployments are moving every 2 to 3 years. Why would the Warrants be immune from any of this, unlike their Officer brethren? Would they not also be just as tempted to cut the cord and make a jump to more stability and better pay in the civilian world?

In the end, the issue of pilots leaving and the why behind it isn't being addressed?

The rationale behind warrant pilots has been getting to fly more with less extra duties or threat of staff or pentagon tours

IMO there's no way for the Air Force to compete as long as the major carriers are hiring in numbers.

You get paid less, can't choose your location or hours and there's always the chance of deployments and TDYs.

They're currently trying to force as many people possible through UPT. Realistically another base or infrastructure structure expansion at the current bases needs to happen to expand the inflow anymore.

I think a lot of people at the decision making table are trying to fix retention because it's the cheaper fix on paper and fixes the problem now but that's not the realistic solution.

I have a cousin who is Army ROTC at Colorado State and wants to fly helicopters. Y'all have any advice to pass along?

brs4688 said:

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I have a cousin who is Army ROTC at Colorado State and wants to fly helicopters. Y'all have any advice to pass along?

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1. Don't suck.

Being good at whatever position in his detachment, summer training or classes ( I was **** was at this part) will give them the best chance to get what they want. If they aren't naturally good at one or more of those don't just write it off and say you'll get your points in your strong areas. Get everything you can.

2. Trust no one

ROTC as a whole is notorious for being uninformed. Research for yourself what you need to accomplish your goals, what career paths are available, etc and make a plan yourself. If you don't take ownership of what you want and how to get there, the DoD doesn't give a **** what you want and you'll end up where they want.

Warrants are officers and CW2 and above hold commissions and can command units, even if many commanders seem to only see Warrants as officers when blame needs to be assigned.

As for the pilot shortage it is quite real and I do not think USAF culture would work well with Warants or enlisted pilots. I think having something like the Navy LDO program or just getting rid of the requirment for a degree to obtain a commission might go a long way to solving the problem.

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If the Air Force added warrant officers, I don't see that fixing people jumping ship at 10 years to fly commercial/DoD contract for more pay.

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As Charlie Brown noted, adding WOs to the mix doesn't really fix anything. Maybe even makes it worse.

Fortunately, USAF has a gaggle of study groups with really smart people who are working the issue.

The USAF's myopic pilot manning process has only been around since the Fall of 1945 (yes, AAF 'til '47...)

The only way to fix it is to pay more than the airlines, by a wide margin, and to have a fly-only option. Some people just want to fly. Not everyone wants to spend more that 50% of their career in all the schools, career broadening, joint, and command assignments.

There are an awful lot of USAF Colonels and General Officers with wings that have less than 3000 hours. Crazy nuts.

Hey Nav said:

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If the Air Force added warrant officers, I don't see that fixing people jumping ship at 10 years to fly commercial/DoD contract for more pay.

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As Charlie Brown noted, adding WOs to the mix doesn't really fix anything. Maybe even makes it worse.

Fortunately, USAF has a gaggle of study groups with really smart people who are working the issue.

The USAF's myopic pilot manning process has only been around since the Fall of 1945 (yes, AAF 'til '47...)

The only way to fix it is to pay more than the airlines, by a wide margin, and to have a fly-only option. Some people just want to fly. Not everyone wants to spend more that 50% of their career in all the schools, career broadening, joint, and command assignments.

There are an awful lot of USAF Colonels and General Officers with wings that have less than 3000 hours. Crazy nuts.

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How many hours should an AF Colonel or General Officer have? How is anything beyond 3000 helping at the GO level? I'm curious because they are a 'general' officer. At least for Army General Officers...they start their first year or so as a BG working as a deputy CG in a DIV (most of the time)...when they get back to an operational unit. Their focus is a lot less about how well they were a tanker, aviator, or individual infantryman. They are very much focused on the division and brigades vs individual companies or tank/aviator crews . Obviously experience matters...but I'm not familiar with the Air Force and flight time and how much that matters as a COL or GO.

The argument that I'm seeing is that the study groups and issue are getting batted and batted around as leadership changes at the strategic level...where change would need to occur. I worked with the AF problem set from the sidelines almost 4-5 years ago, which is why it peaks my interest.

ArmyAg2002 said:

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Warrants are officers and CW2 and above hold commissions and can command units, even if many commanders seem to only see Warrants as officers when blame needs to be assigned.

As for the pilot shortage it is quite real and I do not think USAF culture would work well with Warants or enlisted pilots. I think having something like the Navy LDO program or just getting rid of the requirment for a degree to obtain a commission might go a long way to solving the problem.

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Thanks for the clarification

CharlieBrown17 said:

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ArmyAg2002 said:

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Warrants are officers and CW2 and above hold commissions and can command units, even if many commanders seem to only see Warrants as officers when blame needs to be assigned.

As for the pilot shortage it is quite real and I do not think USAF culture would work well with Warants or enlisted pilots. I think having something like the Navy LDO program or just getting rid of the requirment for a degree to obtain a commission might go a long way to solving the problem.

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Thanks for the clarification

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Warrant Officers are technical experts who mostly reside at the company level. Most do not become part of the staff until at least 12 years of service...and even then they are expected to be an expert in their craft in addition to their specialty (maintenance test pilot, instructor pilot, etc.). The Army has ground Warrant Officers as well..they are typically more senior in experience/time in service than a flight warrant officer.

Warrant Officers come straight off the streets (~25%) and from prior enlisted. Most of the latter make it to retirement since they typically only need 12-15 years to retire from their graduation at Warrant Officer Candidate School...make that 10-13 after WOCS and flight school.

While WOs have commissions at W2, they seldom hold commands. Active duty (for aviation) has about 2-3 commands for CW4/5s. We all have different experiences, but I would offer most commanders see WOs as the backbone of our branch and the reason we have such proficient aviators in the force. I'm biased that way.

Warrant Officers do not require a degree, but 02 is right...I've deployed solely with the AF, and they typically don't see WOs the way we do. The culture isn't there...likewise, the requirement for a commission/degree is a culture thing as well.

That said, I hear AF guys (and Army) pilots say their quality of life needs to change more than $$ thrown their way. I always find that interesting when I ask someone what QOL they would change...most of those changes cannot be made below a 3-4 star general officer or national security level.

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That said, I hear AF guys (and Army) pilots say their quality of life needs to change more than $$ thrown their way. I always find that interesting when I ask someone what QOL they would change...most of those changes cannot be made below a 3-4 star general officer or national security level.

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That's what I hear from my favorite pilot. Multiple deployments, rated officers doing staff work that non-pilots could do, etc.

Fly Army 97 said:

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CharlieBrown17 said:

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ArmyAg2002 said:

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Warrants are officers and CW2 and above hold commissions and can command units, even if many commanders seem to only see Warrants as officers when blame needs to be assigned.

As for the pilot shortage it is quite real and I do not think USAF culture would work well with Warants or enlisted pilots. I think having something like the Navy LDO program or just getting rid of the requirment for a degree to obtain a commission might go a long way to solving the problem.

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Thanks for the clarification

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Warrant Officers are technical experts who mostly reside at the company level. Most do not become part of the staff until at least 12 years of service...and even then they are expected to be an expert in their craft in addition to their specialty (maintenance test pilot, instructor pilot, etc.). The Army has ground Warrant Officers as well..they are typically more senior in experience/time in service than a flight warrant officer.

Warrant Officers come straight off the streets (~25%) and from prior enlisted. Most of the latter make it to retirement since they typically only need 12-15 years to retire from their graduation at Warrant Officer Candidate School...make that 10-13 after WOCS and flight school.

While WOs have commissions at W2, they seldom hold commands. Active duty (for aviation) has about 2-3 commands for CW4/5s. We all have different experiences, but I would offer most commanders see WOs as the backbone of our branch and the reason we have such proficient aviators in the force. I'm biased that way.

Warrant Officers do not require a degree, but 02 is right...I've deployed solely with the AF, and they typically don't see WOs the way we do. The culture isn't there...likewise, the requirement for a commission/degree is a culture thing as well.

That said, I hear AF guys (and Army) pilots say their quality of life needs to change more than $$ thrown their way. I always find that interesting when I ask someone what QOL they would change...most of those changes cannot be made below a 3-4 star general officer or national security level.

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Here's a change that can be made at the company level: stop giving pilots BS additional duties and continue to pile on until it starts interfering with flight time. Punish toxic leadership. Start making examples out of those in charge who play the favorites game with their cliques, and watch as morale improves. Give pilots plenty options for broadening opportunities relevant to their career - especially the warrants who won't see staff time.

Good points. I know think you are Guard, so not sure how you guys do it with the groups...I've worked in multi-component units (drill, AT, etc..my higher HQ was a NG AV BN) and found it fascinating how well everyone knew each other. I also saw the downside of that. I've argued and written in papers to our leaders that our WOs move too much. There is a sweet spot....not like the old days where a dude sat at Campbel/Hoodl for 15 years, but if someone wants to stay for 6-7 years, that would be OK to me if they produce the goods.

You could apply most of what you said to any branch otherwise, especially with the FORSCOM ARMS which tracks all the duties to which you refer. The BCT AV units (MI/UAS) have it even worse. That's what I'm talking about...company commanders don't have the leeway to blow those requirements off or just put them on one person. That said, it's not aviation specific. It's a problem (my opinion) Army-wide.

I think the Chief recognizes that along with the Secretary of the Army which reduced a lot of the minutia going on. But until someone changes the way we inspect our units, the additional duties will continue.

Fly Army - the 3000 hour thing was just an arbitrary number I threw out there. I think I was just reflecting on what so many of my Pilot colleagues told me years ago (I'm a class of '80, and was a C-130 Navigator, who spent more time than I wanted in non-flying billets). Those pilots in my year group bailed in very high numbers for the airlines - pay, flying only, quality of life, etc. Sound familiar?

"3000" just reflects that career USAF pilots spend not so much time flying.Some are called to command at very high levels. Some are content at commanding at the operational level. Some are content at not commanding, and just flying - but that is a career killer.

Btw, with so many Pilots heading off to the airlines, many Navs were afforded so many more Command slots at the Squadron, Group, and Wing level (and even a select few MAJCOM slots).

Anecdotally, the happiest pilots I ever flew with were Viet Nam era pilots who survived the Rifs on the 70s. These were guys who topped out at O-4 and all they did was fly the line. They knew they weren't getting promoted and they had to do some additional duties, but they weren't Ops Officers or Commanders. Except for maybe one exception I can recall, they were excellent, combat tested aviators with a wealth of knowledge. I learned so much from those guys.

Anyways, CSAF says things are getting better

http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2019/June%202019/Goldfein-Pilot-Shortage-Retention-Issues-Leveling-Off.aspx

This from the service that won't allow anyone less than commissioned officer to fly a freakin drone, somehow the army can let a PFC do it and he/she does it well, look at the pay scale between a E-3 and an Air Force O-1 with flight pay...they are practically stealing from the taxpayers

Do Army drones carry weapons?

I believe the Air Force philosophy is to only have officers as trigger pullers for drones. I will agree the same thing could be achieved by having one officer oversssing a group of enlisted pilots.

Also, big difference between a little survieillamce drone and a Reaper.

Yes, Army UAS carry weapons. A Gray Eagle and Reaper are similar. They can carry Hellfire, but the Reaper is slighter bigger and can carry slightly more...not sure if they do normally. All our UAS operators are enlisted. There is a senior Warrant Officer present in the UAS company, but they are not rated in the UAS. A Commissioned Officer leads the unit, but they are rotary (mostly) pilots.

At the end of the day, the Air Force has a way of doing things...so does the Army. I thought the Air Force was changing to enlisted Reaper operators, but maybe I misread that.

Sounds like the Army does like I suggest...keep an officer in charge of the unit, not necessarily every weapon system.

And...

https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2018/01/26/enlisted-drone-program-expands-air-force-seeks-more-operators.html

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26 Jan 2018

Military.com | By Oriana Pawlyk

The second annual enlisted remotely piloted aircraft pilot selection board met last week to decide on the next enlisted airmen who will attend training and soon fly the RQ-4 Global Hawk.

The Air Force Personnel Center will decide on 40 new airmen -- an increase from last year's pool -- out of 134 applicants by next month, officials said.

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