When did the Corps stop marching with rifles? Every dorm used to have an Arms Room and we learned the (M-1) manual of arms and marched with them in reviews. VMI, The Citadel, and Virginia Tech, the other senior ROTC colleges still do. Why did it end at A&M?

My brother, class of '74 did, I did not,

I wonder what happened to all those rifles. Would be pretty cool if all cadets spent at least a day learning basic rifle drill.

Everytime we used rifles we had to call UPD. Probably has nothing to do with it, but it does pose an issue in post 9/11 USA. FDT and RVs still use drill rifles and you have to carry one during completion of marching tours.

Rifle drill was developed as field training for an Army that marched in rows to fight. Since we don't fight that way, since the Civil War is over, it doesn't make sense to practice that way anymore.

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Rifle drill was developed as field training for an Army that marched in rows to fight. Since we don't fight that way, since the Civil War is over, it doesn't make sense to practice that way anymore.

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Doesn't make sense to teach marching, either. But there is a sense of unity, pride, and esprit de corps from learning the old ways.

My companies form up, march, and/or run together every day. It does make sense to instruct from my POV in the Army. If we have weapons, most likely we are not marching around drilling.

Rifles were already gone when I was a fish in '70.

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Rifle drill was developed as field training for an Army that marched in rows to fight. Since we don't fight that way, since the Civil War is over, it doesn't make sense to practice that way anymore.

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Doesn't make sense to teach marching, either. But there is a sense of unity, pride, and esprit de corps from learning the old ways.

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Rifle drill is still very useful for getting people who've never routinely handled a weapon before (e.g. most privates) comfortable with carrying a rifle safely without dropping it before they're taught to fire it. But I can see why rifle drill has limited utility in a modern cadet corps that will commission only a small fraction of its total members in the Army or USMC.

Similarly, marching in formation is still the best method of moving large groups of people around efficiently, even if it is not used in direct combat anymore. (You may recall, for example, the many clips of outfits disembarking from aircraft in Saudi Arabia during Desert Shield and being efficiently assembled and marched off, or our Corps moving equally efficiently en masse to chow.) Marching also still has great utility training young troops to be alert for sudden verbal commands and to obey immediately--a crucial military skill in any Service.

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Rifle drill is still very useful for getting people who've never routinely handled a weapon before (e.g. most privates) comfortable with carrying a rifle safely without dropping it before they're taught to fire it.

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Eh, I disagree. I want privates to learn to keep two hands on the rifle with their finger out of the trigger well and the muzzle pointed down, not to learn to carry it one-handed by the buttstock with the barrel in the air.

And marching still has some use for moving groups of people (like you just wrote).

I don't think I've ever witnessed morale increase by marching or carrying an obsolete rifle that has the bolt welded shut.

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Rifle drill is still very useful for getting people who've never routinely handled a weapon before (e.g. most privates) comfortable with carrying a rifle safely without dropping it before they're taught to fire it.

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Eh, I disagree. I want privates to learn to keep two hands on the rifle with their finger out of the trigger well and the muzzle pointed down, not to learn to carry it one-handed by the buttstock with the barrel in the air.

And marching still has some use for moving groups of people (like you just wrote).

I don't think I've ever witnessed morale increase by marching or carrying an obsolete rifle that has the bolt welded shut.

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Well, you're in a distinct minority, as the Army and Marines still teach the modern manual of arms to all basic trainees to acclimatize them in handling a rifle as the first step in learning how to use it properly.

My question was two fold. First was when. Second was why, especially since VMI, Va Tech, and the Citadel still see utility in the practice. Perhaps General Ramirez might know the reason, even though rifles were gone by his class.

Even if though Tango Mike says there was no use since the Civil War, I remember marching with M-14s in 1970 at ROTC Summer Camp at Ft Sill. I switched to the AF my last semester since I had a chance to fly but assume the Army and Marines may still march with rifles on occasion today.

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Well, you're in a distinct minority, as the Army and Marines still teach the modern manual of arms to all basic trainees to acclimatize them in handling a rifle as the first step in learning how to use it properly.

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Unless they've added it in the past 6 months, the Army does not. I served on the basic training curriculum revision committee in 2014. It wasn't on the previous POI and it wasn't added to our revisions

Edit: and I did not learn it when I went to basic in May 2001

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Rifle drill is still very useful for getting people who've never routinely handled a weapon before (e.g. most privates) comfortable with carrying a rifle safely without dropping it before they're taught to fire it.

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Eh, I disagree. I want privates to learn to keep two hands on the rifle with their finger out of the trigger well and the muzzle pointed down, not to learn to carry it one-handed by the buttstock with the barrel in the air.

And marching still has some use for moving groups of people (like you just wrote).

I don't think I've ever witnessed morale increase by marching or carrying an obsolete rifle that has the bolt welded shut.

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100% Agree, spot on.

Tango, where did you go to basic at? I was a Drill Sergeant from '99-'01, and Manual of Arms was still alive and well at Ft Knox in 1-46 INF.

When I taught at Norwich, the Corp still carried M14s occasionally, but that was mostly just the Rooks. In the Army Department, we had the cadets carry either their M14 (the barrel was welded, but the rest of the rifle was fully functioning) or our M16 at every Mil Lab. Reason? So that when they showed up at BOLC they were comfortable with handling a rifle. We also were the first SMC to conduct Team and Squad live fire with Juniors and Seniors. Again, we wanted them to arrive at Camp or BOLC well versed in carrying and operating a rifle. I think this still has its place.

Junior & Senior cadet LFXs sounds great. As Tango said I do not see much value in learning rifle drill. I see tremendous value in learning how to safely carry & operate a weapon.

I completely understand not using rifles, as the simple logistics would be a nightmare on public university grounds. And I also agree that morale is not improved with rifle drill (unless it is graded and included in unit awards).

I do, however, still feel strongly about formation marching. It is a mundane task that instills discipline and the following of mundane orders, whether the young soldier likes it or not. And since that is a graded task during march-ins, I fully support continuation of this practice. Not to mention, some of the marching in the quad leaves something to be desired. Two times a week for 30 mins is something the academies do. Maybe work it into outfit training time? Morning or afternoon. Even in PTs.

I dunno, just suggestions. We worry about the number of ribbons or cords on uniforms. Why not worry about outfits bring dressed right and in step?

I seem to remember asking a similar question some years ago, and as it turned out, the Air Force cadets did not have Federal Inspection, which I did not realize.

So my question is, did the Air Force learn rifle drill in the old days (OP and I are '71), or was it just the Army?

I am Class of '86. We used the M14 for FTXs. When did those go away?

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Rifles were already gone when I was a fish in '70.

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Interesting.

I know we drilled with them when I was a senior in the spring of 1970, prior to Federal Inspection and there was a gun room in dorm 9. Somehow my roomie got a key to it and was into Buddhism used to lock himself in there for meditation.

I'm an old BQ. After drilling with the rifles, we'd be inspected in Band formation with instruments. That was a total pull out. The "Manual of Arms" for the various instruments was just hand down year to year, I never saw any printed instructions. I don't think the inspecting officers had a clue either.

The only ones using rifles in 60-61 (my first years at A&M) were the Fish Drill Team and Ross Volunteers...

My dad, '66, remembers having rifle rooms but they didn't regularly drill with rifles outside of RVs and FDT

Teach them to walk in a wedge at the low ready. That is useful.

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Teach them to walk in a wedge at the low ready. That is useful.

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You mean like this?

Ha!

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I seem to remember asking a similar question some years ago, and as it turned out, the Air Force cadets did not have Federal Inspection, which I did not realize.

So my question is, did the Air Force learn rifle drill in the old days (OP and I are '71), or was it just the Army?

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I started in '65, just a couple of years before you did. There was no rifle drill on the AF side of the quad in those years.

Thanks. I wondered about that.

I was a fish in C-1 fall of '70 we did have rifle drills spring of '71. There were no rifle drills after that.
in fall of '71 I my room was actually the old rifle room of dorm 4. I kept sending in work orders for the bars to be removed but nothing happened. It was actually pretty dumb to house kids in a room with bars on the windows, what would happen in event of a fire? Anyway survived that and living to tell about it. The rifles were of course dummy rifles but were real just not functional. The air crappers did not have rifle drills in the spring of '71 that is all I know about that. I also remember having actual rifle marksmanship shooting for a medal which took place under the east side of Kyle Field as a fish. I am not sure whether that continued later on or not. I still have the medal in my collection of stuff.

Yes, the rifle qualification was part of fish Bulltext as I recall and was with .22s.

And I also remember Federal Inspection in Spring 1971 with rifles, although seniors did not carry rifles.

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I started in '65, just a couple of years before you did. There was no rifle drill on the AF side of the quad in those years.

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Interesting, I'll have to check with my brother, squadron 6 class of '74. I could have sworn he drilled with rifles.

BTW, the old rifle rooms in Dorm 11 still had barred windows in my day. They were used to store the Bass horns in one, and the Drums in the other.

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I started in '65, just a couple of years before you did. There was no rifle drill on the AF side of the quad in those years.

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Interesting, I'll have to check with my brother, squadron 6 class of '74. I could have sworn he drilled with rifles.

BTW, the old rifle rooms in Dorm 11 still had barred windows in my day. They were used to store the Bass horns in one, and the Drums in the other.

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I was in Squadron 10 and spent my entire 4 years in the Corps living in Dorms 4 and 6. I have no idea what happened after I graduated and was commissioned, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that I never touched a drill rifle during my time in the Corps. The only way I can think of that any AF Cadet might have drilled with a rifle is if he was on the Fish Drill Team or was an RV.

Saying I have to check with him doesn't mean I think you are wrong. I could have easily misinterpreted him telling that some cadets drilled with rifles.

CanyonAg I only speak for myself and my time in the Corps, I have no idea what happened after i left the Quad, and certainly meant no offense to you or your desire to check with your brother. Your brother entered the Corps after I left so I have no idea what he did or did not do. I apologize if I came across harsh or defensive - it was not my intent.

No problem. I was not offended nor did I intend to imply I was