Maybe I'm behind the times, but this is the first I have seen of this. If I ever have one of my Marines acting so ridiculously, there would be charges filed.

I don't know if this was a political statement or what, but I'm at a loss for words. I lost 5 Marines in 8 days on my 2nd deployment and am almost in tears thinking of this within the context of this picture. Someone please explain this to me.

Which photo are you referring to? Sorry if I'm even further behind the times...

Sorry, I forgot to link the article. It went front 1-5 of 65 to 40-65 on yahoo in 45 minutes http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/controversial-air-force-casket-photo-prompts-investigation-184720339.html

[This message has been edited by FightnFarmerUSMC (edited 12/16/2011 12:14a).]

I'd crush any of my Soldiers that were involved in such a photo. I truly hope everyone involved with this photo are shown the door.

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First appearing on Facebook in early October, the image has since been forwarded by several individuals, including a former soldier and Army spouse.

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Bunch of idiots...why do such a thing? And then why post it on the internet?

If this was a bunch of junior enlisted I would have been upset and slapped some wrists and chalked it up to kids doing a stupid stunt.

But there are no less than 3 either E6's or E7's in that photo. That is not the decision making I want out of senior NCO's and that would end careers. It makes it worse that they are a training sqdn.

I certainly can't imagine this happening in the Army or the Marine Corps

Alright, as an Air Force Officer, I am disappointed in the acts of these individuals. It is true that the Air Force does not experience loss of it's airmen at anywhere near the same rate as the Army or Marine Corps. I have deployed and lost a few brothers in arms, including Air Force squadron-mates and Army special forces guys that I met and worked with on a daily basis. I have seen the photo, and these folks should have never taken the photo. I don't deny that the Air Force airmen are not as familiar with death of their brothers in arms.

What has me upset is a couple of things. 1) I wish that these Airmen had a lot more humility, understanding and sympathy for loss of life. 2) That people would categorize all Airmen like this. I know that I shouldn't be that upset, but I have seen the photo and I'm sure these people are in a world of trouble. So let's all be more careful when pointing the finger. Yes worse things than this have happened in all services, including the Air Force.

After the trouble soldiers got into following the photos at the prison in Iraq, why are our servicemen & women dumb enough to take these type of photos over and over?

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2) That people would categorize all Airmen like this. I know that I shouldn't be that upset, but I have seen the photo and I'm sure these people are in a world of trouble. So let's all be more careful when pointing the finger. Yes worse things than this have happened in all services, including the Air Force.

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Keep a bit of perspective as to the severity of the consequences. This is all damaged pride and reputations for the Air Force but it's not as if it is going to result in widespread witch hunts like Tailhook 1991 did in theNavy and Marine Corps.

As long as two years after the 1991 Tailhook convention promotions were being held in suspension for every male naval officer until they had submitted to SecNav a signed statement that they were not present nor had any personal knowledge of what happened at the Las Vegas Hilton on the dates of 8-12 September 1991. Those who could not sign that affidavit were deposed by SJAs and were tattooed by Patty Schroeder and company as misogynists and many had their career ruined. The Commander of the Blue Angels had gone to the conference to receive and award and his mere presence there and having the rank of O-6 caused his name to be removed from the O-7 select list. A decade later and long after he retired he was promoted with back pay. Many others didn't get their name cleared or their career restored.

Burn 'em all!!!!! Or better yet let them answer to units of the fallen they handled. My rifle squad suffered 7 KIA over two tours. And I shudder to think that some of them might have gone through these "airmens'" arms.

These senior NCO's need to answer somehow. Absolutely despicable. I can't tell you how many briefs and talks we received clarifying one thing. If we messed up we disgrace ourselves and more importantly the Corps. We were more scared of that than any possible personal disgrace. It's not "a young man gets a DUI after crashing and killing an innocent victim." it's more like, ' A Marine killed an innocent person while driving drunk." Even if it was on leave or what have you. Point is if you are a member of the armed services you represent that service, and by extension, our government and our people. So these airmen need to answer to their commands, their service, the government, and the public.

Our Battalion Sgt.Maj. would always emphasize his libo briefs with the final comment. "For the love of everything you hold sacred, Don't be a freaking idiot. Think before you act. Don't drink and drive, wrap it twice, and if there are cameras around you button up like a virgin's *******. You mess up and disgrace our uniform you answer to ME first. " That scared us straight. That man had an aura of sheer badassness that made you feel about knee high. Sgt.Maj Barrett, now currently the Sgt.Maj. of the Marine Corps.

Stupid photo, stupid reaction. I never would have thought of comparing it to dead soldiers coming back from theater or remains thrown in the dump. It actually put me more in mind of Jim Crow and lynching—which is stupid too. Much ado about nothing, an investigation is a waste of money, all that is need is a counseling session by the CO to tell the people in the photo to grow a brain.

Counseling session? Are you f'ing kidding me? Counseling sessions are a joke. Soldiers, and I'm sure Airmen, see them for exactly what they are. A tiny slap on the wrist. Behavior such as this is totally unsat in any unit. And with the armed forces facing massive cuts in man power situations like this are an excellent opportunity to cut away the s**tbags that permeate the military.

With the full realization that I'm probably showing my ass right now... I can't see anything in that photo worth getting angry over. Actually, I don't see anything at all. Without any context, the photo is meaningless. I obviously don't know what's really going on, but I can't see anything that may be construed to be offensive either. To me it looks like a trainee flight goofing off. What am I missing here?

How about conduct unbecoming a United States soldier? Shocking lack of good judgment?

coconutED

If you have to ask you never will get it.

Aggiein AnnArbor:

You must not have been in the military too long, if at all. Soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen do dumber stuff than this every day of the week. If you ran them all out, who would be fighting the war?

After the counseling session if they continue to behave inappropriately you come down harder. The worst these people deserve is an article 15 and that seems overkill to me for just being stupid.

[This message has been edited by BQ78 (edited 12/20/2011 11:32a).]

i've been in the Army quite a while now. And my point, if you had read it, is that with the cuts to personnel we are facing instances such as this are excellent opportunities to cut away the dead weight. Certain actions are so abhorrent that a mere "counseling" session is not worth the paper it is printed on. This is one of those cases.

If you think an Art 15 is overkill........then I know a lot of s**tbag Soldiers who would love to have you as a CO. They would have a field day with you.

So rate this "offense" against:

-- beating your wife
-- stealing at the BX
-- Drunken Driving
-- disobeying a direct order
-- getting in a bar fight
-- threatening to kill an ex-spouse
-- Not supporting your kids
-- fighting with your barracks mates
-- illegal drug use
-- Driving with a suspended license

Is it worse than those or would you run out every sailor, soldier, marine and airman that does those too?

And no they did not like me as a CO because I have a sixth sense about s**tbags versus people who overall do a good to excellent job but occasionally screw up. Unless these people had a history of screwing up like this, I would not nail them to the wall just becasue the military press has made them the cause du jour.

Oh and the "counseling session" would probably of the variety that they would have preferred an article 15 or some sort of punishment instead. I'd make sure later that it took that way too.

[This message has been edited by BQ78 (edited 12/20/2011 4:22p).]

You need to be able to prove a violation of the UCMJ for action under Article 15.

Ag Law 02:

A disciplinary infraction for breach of standards.

But you raise a good point, what military law have these airman violated? They seem to only be guilty of offending people. Last time I looked that wasn't in the UCMJ as a chargable offense.

Article 134
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/134.htm

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If the conduct is punished as a crime or offense not capital, the proof must establish every element of the crime or offense as required by the applicable law. If the conduct is punished as a disorder or neglect to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, or of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, then the following proof is required:


(1) That the accused did or failed to do certain acts; and

(2) That, under the circumstances, the accused’s conduct was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.

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I'm pretty sure that this would fall under this category. I'm not saying burn them all. But an NJP is a worthy punishment here. And the senior NCOs in the picture should be punished big time outside of just a mere counseling, no matter how "rough" it would be.

-- beating your wife

Pic is not as bad, ^^^ brig time

-- stealing at the BX

Excluding a large monetary amount the picture is worse, both are NJP worthy

-- Drunken Driving
Pic is not as bad, both are NJP worthy

-- disobeying a direct order
Depending on the order and combat/noncombat scenario I say these are interchangable.

-- getting in a bar fight
Interchangable as long as no major injuries were given
-- threatening to kill an ex-spouse

Pic is not as bad

-- Not supporting your kids
Pic is not as bad

-- fighting with your barracks mates
Interchangable, major injuries withstanding

-- illegal drug use
Pic is not as bad

-- Driving with a suspended license
Pic is worse.

Even with all that said, add "Taking a stupid picture that will offend dead military members families, fellow servicemen, and make your unit look like a bunch of jackasses" to your list and it will fall right in the middle of all of the offenses listed.

The point is rather moot at this point I would think. There are going to be sacrificial lambs. Someone is going to burned for this. It's just a matter of course. It is just simply too public and the outcry demands that there is blood. Such is the way of leaked media from the services.

Fighting Farmer USMC:

So do you think these airmen did this to offend the families of dead soldiers or the offense was the by product of a not well thought out spur of the moment prank?

What is it about the photo that makes it offensive? Take the caption off is it still offensive? The noose? the coffin? the chains? the person posing as a corpse? Or some combination therof?

I absolutely believe that they had no intention of causing anyone any offense. Just like I think that drunk driver's have no intention of wrecking their or someone elses car.

That does not mean that they should not be punished. Court martial is probably too much. But to just say, "Hey, I'm gonna give these guys a REALLY hard counseling session, if you know what I mean," is not enough in today's military. That may be unfortunate, but it's the truth.

These airmen made an idiotic choice. The rank that some of them wear means that they are not allowed to make idiotic choices without repercussions.

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What is it about the photo that makes it offensive? Take the caption off is it still offensive? Yes The noose?Yes the coffin? the chains? Yesthe person posing as a corpse?Yes Or some combination therof?

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There are going to be sacrificial lambs. Someone is going to burned for this. It's just a matter of course. It is just simply too public and the outcry demands that there is blood. Such is the way of leaked media from the services.

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Bingo

Still not seeing anything offensive...

What is offensive?
Who is being offended?
How is the offensive aspect offensive to the offended party?

Pretend that you are the direct supervisor to one or more of these airmen and you have to rationally and concisely explain specifically what they did wrong and why it is wrong without coming off as a holier than thou d-bag. What would you say?

Somehow, I don't think "If you have to ask you never will get it" is going to cut it.

[This message has been edited by coconutED (edited 12/21/2011 5:37p).]

It's not whether the pic is BAD or not. It's that the pic is incredibly STUPID and a very poor decision on the part of NCOs.

Stupid privates do this, "Stupid private. Push."
NCOs do this, "You must not want your job as a leader and mentor anymore."

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Still not seeing anything offensive...

What is offensive?
Who is being offended?
How is the offensive aspect offensive to the offended party?

Pretend that you are the direct supervisor to one or more of these airmen and you have to rationally and concisely explain specifically what they did wrong and why it is wrong without coming off as a holier than thou d-bag. What would you say?

Somehow, I don't think "If you have to ask you never will get it" is going to cut it.

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Seriously??

ok

It is offensive in that fact that they are portraying a dead U.S. Servicemember in a casket and crowding around it with the caption added. To me this means only one thing. They are mocking our dead who have gone home in caskets. And I have brawled with people for less. Mix this with the fact that the Air force recently has another scandal involving bodies of warriors going into the dump makes it worse. A personal **** You to those who have fallen.

The families of the deceased are the main ones offended here. It's like say your grandfather died of lung cancer from smoking and someone put on his clothes and took a picture of themselves in a casket smoking a cig with the caption," Sucks to be you. I'm alive and well and you aren't. Cancer ain't got nothing on me!" If you wouldn't be offended by that then you will never get it. Just an example of course but a lot of people are feeling this way. Secondary offendees are veterans who have lost comrades in these wars. It is absolute disrespect. I DARE these airmen to show their faces around the bars my battalion frequents. Having lost more friends in the line of duty than I want to say it makes me burn with rage.

And if those didn't answer your third question that I'm sorry. I don't know what else to add.

Basically at it's core I believe that is a snub to our warrior community and it's families and general disrespect of our dead. And here in the U.S. and specifically Texas that is no small thing.

Just my opinion of course but I hope it helps.

[This message has been edited by Eliminatus (edited 12/22/2011 3:32a).]

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Counseling session? Are you f'ing kidding me? Counseling sessions are a joke. Soldiers, and I'm sure Airmen, see them for exactly what they are. A tiny slap on the wrist. Behavior such as this is totally unsat in any unit. And with the armed forces facing massive cuts in man power situations like this are an excellent opportunity to cut away the s**tbags that permeate the military.

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Completely disagree. All service members have done something that would potentially disgrace the uniform. Whether getting drunk in an airport or something like this...

Counselling has inherit value in that leadership understands that they didn't mean to create the situation they did. The senior NCO's, well they should have known better; but are most likely command necessary folks.

This shouldn't be a career killer (like the Abu Ghariab) situation.

We should also remember that just because they were in the picture does not mean thay had anything to do with the caption that was added to the photo.

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Completely disagree. All service members have done something that would potentially disgrace the uniform. Whether getting drunk in an airport or something like this...

Counselling has inherit value in that leadership understands that they didn't mean to create the situation they did. The senior NCO's, well they should have known better; but are most likely command necessary folks.

This shouldn't be a career killer (like the Abu Ghariab) situation.

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While all service members have probably done something stupid, not all of them were picked up and spread around by a national news outlet. The media coverage on this makes it a big deal. If this was stopped after only being seen by a few people, then a counseling would be totally appropriate. I'm sure General McChrystal isn't the only General to say something about Obama. But he was the one who had it published in a national magazine. As I stated earlier intent has nothing to do with result of the action. I just don't understand this logic. If the result of your action is serious enough, then intent is irrelevant, i.e. McChrystal and Rolling Stone.

Late for formation. Counseling. Giving a little attitude to an NCO. Counseling. Sub-standard PT. Counseling. Having an inappropriate photo get picked up by Yahoo. More than a counseling.

And an Article 15 is hardly a career killer.

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And an Article 15 is hardly a career killer.

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I'll give you this one.

The NCO's definitely need more than counselling, but nothing permanent. The junior folks, they are already embarrassed by this for having to stand in front of the CO and First Sergeant and try to explain what they were thinking.

Good service members make mistakes.

I'll give you a couple of examples:

1) A 2LT fired a .50 round out of a training area into a civilian farm land area. I had to help write the letter from the BN CDR to the Div Commander to explain what happened (not a fun 5 hours). That letter probably landed on the POTUS's desk the next day as he probably made a call to the Chancellor of Germany about it. A mistake that cost him his career (and it should have).

2) A PLT SGT reported all weapons accounted for. What he didn't know was that his section lost a weapon while on the tank trail. The weapon was recovered and delivered to the MP's who tracked it down by the serial number (Ironically this too was an M2 Machine Gun). He and the Specialist who was assigned to it were standing in front of the man about it. The man had some sympathy and just Art 15 them with some money and extra duty. The SFC was a damn good Mess Sergeant who made a mistake. The SPC was a bonehead but still a good soldier.

The difference - one could have killed somebody. The other was irresponsibility.

The funny part of the 2LT was that we got a order of special duty requiring an investigating officer, I chimed in that "I know who'd I'd assign to that job." The S-1 replied "yeah, probably the same guy the XO did."

Eliminatus, these uniformed servicemembers aren't purposefully dishonoring fallen troops -- that's beyond the pale. They're stupidly unaware -- certainly, but more than likely attempting a section photo or the like.