I know that I am going to get blasted on this, but here goes anyway.

The guy who was recently awarded the CMH for going after one of his buddies who the taliban were carring away for a trophy was heroius, not denying that, but CMH worth, I think not. Silver star, yes.

How many guys in the previous wars did the same thing? Thousands?

I respect the guy, but go read the 7 Aggie's Ciations and many others who received the CMH and this one pales in comparison.

Even Bill Carpenter got the DSC for a more worthy deed than this and he was recommended for the CMH.

My opinion.

Have to disagree with you. Having read about the firefight he was involved in, he was worthy of the MOH. He was hit by two bullets, one in his body armor and another in the weapon. He bounded forward to SGT Ekrode, who had been hit four times, to ensure he was safe. Then he ran, while firing, toward the two Taliban who were dragging SGT Brennan away. He not only secured his buddy, but he killed one Taliban and wounded the other. SGT Ekrode wrote later, "For all intents and purposes, with the amount of fire that was going on in the conflict at the time, he (Guinta) shouldn't be alive." Every man in the platoon was struck by enemy fire that night. Sounds like the firefight was pure hell on earth. So yes, I say he deserved the MOH. By the way, it is the Medal of Honor...not CMOH. That is my take.

3–7. Medal of Honor

b. The Medal of Honor is awarded by the President in the name of Congress to a person who, while a member of the Army, distinguishes himself or herself conspicuously...

by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his or her life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States;

...while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force; or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The deed performed must have been one of personal bravery or self-sacrifice so conspicuous as to clearly distinguish the individual above his comrades and must have involved risk of life. Incontestable proof of the performance of the service will be exacted and each recommendation for the award of this decoration will be considered on the standard of
extraordinary merit.

3–8. Distinguished Service Cross
b. The Distinguished Service Cross is awarded to a person who, while serving in any capacity with the Army, distinguished himself or herself by extraordinary heroism not justifying the award of a Medal of Honor; while engaged
in an action against an enemy of the United States; while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing or foreign force; or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an
opposing Armed Force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The act or acts of heroism must have been so notable and have involved risk of life so extraordinary as to set the individual apart from their comrades.

3–10. Silver Star
b. The Silver Star is awarded to a person who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Army, is cited for gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States while engaged in military operations involving conflict with
an opposing foreign force, or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The required gallantry, while of a lesser degree than that required for the Distinguished Service Cross, must nevertheless have been performed with marked distinction.


[This message has been edited by Fly Army 97 (edited 11/14/2010 9:57p).]

According to the regulation (AR 600-8-22):

quote:

---

Complete the proposed citation in block 21.
Citation for awards of the MSM, ARCOM, &
AAM are limited to six lines and will be restricted to the space allowed on the DA Form
638. All other awards are limited to nine lines
and may be submitted on 8 1/2 by 11-inch
bond paper. Awards of the DSM and above
may be up to 19 lines.

---

The amount of lines in the citation is regulated. 19 lines may seem like a lot, but it is most likely substantially reduced from what it was previously. When I was active duty, the AAM and ARCOM was limited to 4 lines. The MSM was 6 lines double spaced. That isn't a lot of space to write what one did (with the exception of say a top gun award at tank gunnery where a crew shot a perfect score and the event is objective based).

My point is that the write up isn't the best way to determine what actually happened at the event. The Army has reduced the administrative requirements to ensure that the awards are processed efficiently. If there was no limit, one could submit an award with two pages of history of the circumstances. It is designed to rely on those that were there and those that knew. For the MOH, it has to go through the Company Commander, the Battalion Commander, the Brigade Commander, Division Commander, Corps Commander (and all the CSM's) before making it to the SECY of Defense. I am pretty sure that they did their due diligence in the award.

One cannot compare citations for the Medal of Honor and simply say one is more heroic than another. Circumstances of combat are never conveyed that clearly in words to those who were not there. That's why all MOH nominations are pretty thoroughly investigated.

It is also folly to try to compare them from one war to the next. Different times, different circumstances. USAF Major Bernie Fisher was awarded the MOH in 1966 (IIRC) for landing his A-1 and picking up his wingman who had been shot down. I told this story to my dad, who was a P-51 pilot in WW2, and his response was that he would have seen a court martial for it in 1944. I can't speak to the veracity of that, but it was a pretty defensible opinion. We didn't have the SAR capability in 1944 that we had in Vietnam.

I'd be interested in reading the recommendation form. I'd bet the original submission was upgraded from a lesser award based on the citation being only 9 lines.

Question for officers on here:

Do the heroic actions of a solider under your command positively reflect your performance as much as the negative actions reflect poorly?

I think it is difficult to compare heroic vs negative. I have more negative things occur in a non-tactical environment. Now, ones and twos "heroic" actions I don't think reflect on a BDE CDR or BN CDR as would a sustained environment of good fighting in one's particular environment....


I would be interested in reading the entire write up before making judgment on this particular case.

[This message has been edited by Fly Army 97 (edited 11/15/2010 1:06p).]

I do not know enough about this specific situation to make an intellegent comment.

But to highjack the thread for a moment:
SgtMaj Kasel was sent to my unit after being promoted. I was privledged to be in the formation when he received his Navy Cross. I don't know what else a Marine, Sailor, or Soldier has to do to receive the Medal of Honor. This was a few years ago and alot of the "Does a service member have to die to receive the Medal of Honor" debate started. I know there are other Marines and Soldiers that are just as deserving and were left out as well, but this is the one that I feel connected to just because SgtMaj Kasel was mine for a little while.

So if this is not deserving, what is?

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,96235,00.html

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://media.patriotpost.us/img/ref/kasal.jpg&imgrefurl=http://patriotpost.us/reference/brad-kasal/&usg=__r6Qi7XVMpi66sRr-3H_7Gp9pWy0=&h=517&w=800&sz=93&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=Te_2xx3mRLjjdM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=183&prev=/images%3Fq%3D1st%2Bsgt%2Bkasal%2Bphoto%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26biw%3D1419%26bih%3D727%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=266&vpy=83&dur=136&hovh=180&hovw=279&tx=151&ty=102&ei=M4ThTJ-VIJD6swPmkam7Cg&oei=M4ThTJ-VIJD6swPmkam7Cg&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0

quote:

---

So if this is not deserving, what is?

---

Based on the fact that this story scores very high on the very scientific and objective Say Chowdah goose bump-o-meter, I'd say that he deserves it.

I don't think you can compare citations written from one conflict to another. Especially World War 1 or 2 where a very different type of combat was being fought as compared to the counter insurgency fight of today.

Thanks to all of you who responded.

I am from a different generation from most of you and get some of my guidance from my Uncle's who participated in WWII, Korea and some of my classmates for 'nam.

That being said, I reconize the difference between various confilcts and what heroism means to each person. Just wanted your opinions. Thanks.

May God belss our troops serving in defense of our GREAT NATION! AMEN and AMEN!

As clarification to my question to officers (or senior NCO's on here for that matter):

The write up of the MOH in this particular instance was 9 lines. This leads me to believe that the original recommendation was for a lower award than the MOH, and was later upgraded, at a higher command after a Senior Commander/CSM read it and then started an investigation process about the events.

I am curious as to how bold (or high ranking) one must be in order to recommend a service member for the MOH. I would have to assume there was a review panel assigned prior to actually stating that this is worth of the MOH. Politics has to play into this recommendation at some level.

At the very low rank of E4, I recommended soldiers for ARCOM's and AAM's in the Natl Guard (generally for an end of service award because my unit had a poor track record of recognizing soldiers). But it is difficult to envision a scenario where a Soldier, Sailor, Airmen or Marine lower than a BDE CDR or BDE CSM (or equivilent) could even breathe MOH without raising a lot of eyebrows.

Any thoughts on this?

[This message has been edited by Say Chowdah (edited 11/16/2010 9:13a).]

WOW, armchair quarterbacking at its best. for some reason, this topic is starting to smell alot like the "who should represent a&m during the commercials, an officer or enlisted" BS from last year.

hell, mcarthur (lowercase for a reason) abandoned tens of thousands of Soldiers in the pacific and snuck off on a submarine and got an MOH for it, where is the outrage for that?

someone explain why a general officer, such as a division commander, gets the legion of merit after his tour of duty, for doing his SKILL LEVEL JOB (what is expected of him) but an enlisted person gets lucky if he recieves an arcom?

for those who feel the need to "review and decide if the MOH was deserving", you should be ashamed. its not yours to give, therefore its not yours to scrutinize.

clary...
Welcome to TexAgs

fightinfarmer, ive been here for about 14 years, but dont chime in that often. im just amazed at some of the stuff that people complain about. the bad part is most of it is by those in the military, complaining about the accomplishments of others in the military also. i dont know, envy, jealousy,......call it what you will, from some on here.

quote:

---

enlisted person gets lucky if he recieves an arcom

---

Are you serious? The Army hands out medals like candy. Enlisted soldiers receive the ARCOM and officers the MSM for just showing up. You have to try really hard to not get one.

i guess it all depends on what unit you are in, because i have seen SPC and below recieve AAMs for end of tour awards from Iraq, with no disciplinary problems associated with the deployment. thats a discussion best reserved for a different topic though.

We were attached to the 173rd on my trip to Afghanistan in '09-'10 and their policy was that there were no end of tour awards. Deploying and doing your job didn't qualify you for an award.

I know that's different from what has happened in the past just trying to shed a little more current light on the subject.

hey CT'97, my battalion just relieved thier 1st bat, and im here on S. Bad. where were you?

I was at Ghazni, living with the wonderful Polish battle group.

quote:

---

Enlisted soldiers receive the ARCOM and officers the MSM for just showing up. You have to try really hard to not get one.

---

Really? From my understanding of the regs, the MSM cannot be given for wartime service.

quote:

---

someone explain why a general officer, such as a division commander, gets the legion of merit after his tour of duty, for doing his SKILL LEVEL JOB (what is expected of him) but an enlisted person gets lucky if he recieves an arcom?

---

For one thing: Level of responsibility and accountability.

A Sergeant (team leader) has 4 men under his command. A Division Commander has close to 40,000 personnel. HUGE difference.

The MSM is given to staff officers who generally don't leave the FOB to do their jobs the Bronze Star for service being given for those who's jobs are conducted outside the wire and thus in direct combat.

The other distinction is that the Bronze Star can recieve a "V" device for an individual action in combat. The MSM is for service over a prolonged period.

The AARCOM can also be awarded with the "V" device for a singular action in combat that may not warrant the Bronze Star.

Pretty sure you were all aware of that but thought I'd chime in with this tidbit of info.

Back to the original question though, because I wasn't there, I maintain that the ones there and the ones in the know provided enough detail to those high enough to make the recommendation and who am I to question their collective wisdom?

Yea, the AAM and MSM used to NOT be allowed in a combat zone...but that changed a few years ago.

CGSC, that level of responsibility and accountability that the general has is what is expected of him at his rank. major generals are expected to command a division, or they wouldnt be there, just like a sergeant is expected to be accountable and responsible for his team, or he wouldnt be in that position. your argument doesnt work, sorry.

quote:
-----------------------------------------------
But it is difficult to envision a scenario where a Soldier, Sailor, Airmen or Marine lower than a BDE CDR or BDE CSM (or equivilent) could even breathe MOH without raising a lot of eyebrows.

Any thoughts on this?
-----------------------------------------------
When SFC Paul R. Smith earned his MOH for his actions at Baghdad airport on 4APR03, it was our BN CDR who recommended him for his award.

AGGIE12B
JC '88
If you value the Freedom and Liberties you have in your life, be sure to Thank a Veteran everyday!

If my argument doesn't work, how did Stanley McCrystal get relieved for something one of his aides was overheard saying?

quote:

---

The MSM is given to staff officers who generally don't leave the FOB to do their jobs the Bronze Star for service being given for those who's jobs are conducted outside the wire and thus in direct combat.

---

Not always. You could have a complete ******pump for a boss who gives S3 Battle Captains who never leave the FOB BSMs but staff officers who leave the wire more than he does, but happen to be the wrong branch ARCOMs.

quote:

---

A Division Commander has close to 40,000 personnel.

---

Huh?

What's the huh for?

5-6 BCTs fall under a Division plus 5-6 separates.

Each BCT is about 4000-4500 Soldiers. Each Separate is close to 800-1000 Soldiers.

6 * 4500 = 27000
6 * 1000 = 6000

33000 by my estimate. So I'm a little off.

CGSC, what does mcchristal getting relieved have to do with anything?

a major generals skill level job is commanding a division and all that comes with it. he has attended college and a ton of military schools to prepare him for that. just as a sergeant has attended WLC to prepare him to lead a team. a general should not get an extremely high award for completing nothing more than his skill level job, when a junior nco is lucky to get an aam when leaves his position.

P.S. in my twenty years i have never seen a division commander command anywhere close to 10 brigades, even during a tour in Iraq or Afghanistan. please name one. first of all, they never deploy with thier entire division, a brigade or two is sliced to someone else, with no promise of recieving a brigade from another division.

maybe we are just arguing over something that doesnt amount to anything.

quote:

---

The amount of lines in the citation is regulated. 19 lines may seem like a lot, but it is most likely substantially reduced from what it was previously. When I was active duty, the AAM and ARCOM was limited to 4 lines. The MSM was 6 lines double spaced. That isn't a lot of space to write what one did (with the exception of say a top gun award at tank gunnery where a crew shot a perfect score and the event is objective based).

---

Citation =/= recommendation. The proposed citation is what is limited. As in "For Exceptionally Meritorious Achievement..."

The recommendation is attached on separate paper in narrative form for anything above an MSM. The recommendation is generally 1 typed page long for MSM-SM, and two pages or longer for heroism awards.

While the BSM and ARCOM are given out like STDs in Iraq, the MSM is still badge-protected. It generally requires command or 1SG time, sometimes more than that, to leave a unit with a PCS MSM. Somehow in the past 9 years the garrison MSM has risen above the combat BSM in prominence.

quote:

---

We were attached to the 173rd on my trip to Afghanistan in '09-'10 and their policy was that there were no end of tour awards. Deploying and doing your job didn't qualify you for an award.

---

Ugh... "we're so airborne"... *eye roll*