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Multiple ACs in my neighborhood going out

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1208HawkTree
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1:58p, 5/19/23
AG
Homes in this area built 2007-2010. About three or four weeks ago, we had a power surge or quick "blip" where the lights flickered. Not abnormal itself, but within a week, my two neighbors across the street both had their ACs crap out on them. Last week, my neighbor behind us had to replace theirs, and starting last night ours stopped cooling properly. Just had a guy out to look and long story short, we got a quote that boggles my mind to replace both of ours.

I understand that 15 years isn't out of the question for these things to go out, but 4 that I know of within 10 days, all within 100 yards of each other seems a bit odd.

AC guy thinks there might just be a leak somewhere because there is virtually no Freon in ours currently. We are contacting a couple of different companies suggested to us to look into sealing the leak and re-charge Freon if possible because the cost to replace both is nauseating.
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combat wombat™
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In reply to 1208HawkTree • 2:04p, 5/19/23
AG
If you are in the Houston area contact Galen Beede and Beede A/C and Heating. He can replace your A/Cs with locally made units that are warranted for 10 years… and they are not cost nearly as much as you were quoted for Lenox, Trane, etc. unit.

He did for us and I love him for it.
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Texker
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3:14p, 5/19/23
AG
OP that sucks. Definitely suspicious.

Does anybody have experience with a soft start product on your home units?

https://www.microair.net/pages/easystart-soft-starters
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BrazosDog02
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4:42p, 5/19/23
AG
Do you have surge protection on the house? You should. And then get a compressor saver surge protector for the disconnect.

Pretty suspicious but if all units are that old and you had a power blip, it's not that unusual. Probably have more die in in the coming weeks.
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tgivaughn
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4:47p, 5/19/23
AG
I agree to seek bids to fix coolant leak then weigh that against price of a new unit (or two eventually) that will save you energy dollars every month. Then a 2nd opinon/quote from a top rated Trane dealer
or cheaper brand if you are not going to keep this house long.

I agree surges can take out even new 220v appliances and certainly 110v Washers, Ref, etc. ... lightning, etc also as as cause. Older, weaker parts are the first to suffer and considering a well used HVAC;s life is ~20years, you have economics food for thought. Who you gonna sue? Will an an electrician fit you with whole house surge protection? Cost? Forecast of Texas power dependability?


As for me, a variable Trane system would replace the old taking care of the daytime used portion of house and seal the ducts.
If #2 HVAC not affordable now, then some 110v LG window unit supplements for those bedrooms suffering (Amazon or local) + begin a savings account, some contributions coming from energy savings gleaned from #1. If #2 is the leaky one, then of course fix leaks.

Future
EZ to get protection for other high dollar appliances that plug into wall, since you may be located in an area whose future is more of this ....
http://rb.gy/u6fkn
http://rb.gy/x7hsp
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1208HawkTree
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In reply to tgivaughn • 2:06a, 5/20/23
AG
tgivaughn said:
I agree to seek bids to fix coolant leak then weigh that against price of a new unit (or two eventually) that will save you energy dollars every month. Then a 2nd opinon/quote from a top rated Trane dealer
or cheaper brand if you are not going to keep this house long.

I agree surges can take out even new 220v appliances and certainly 110v Washers, Ref, etc. ... lightning, etc also as as cause. Older, weaker parts are the first to suffer and considering a well used HVAC;s life is ~20years, you have economics food for thought. Who you gonna sue? Will an an electrician fit you with whole house surge protection? Cost? Forecast of Texas power dependability?


As for me, a variable Trane system would replace the old taking care of the daytime used portion of house and seal the ducts.
If #2 HVAC not affordable now, then some 110v LG window unit supplements for those bedrooms suffering (Amazon or local) + begin a savings account, some contributions coming from energy savings gleaned from #1. If #2 is the leaky one, then of course fix leaks.

Future
EZ to get protection for other high dollar appliances that plug into wall, since you may be located in an area whose future is more of this ....
http://rb.gy/u6fkn
http://rb.gy/x7hsp


Some good points here, thank you. We don't plan on leaving for at least 5-6 years (which will put us at 20-21 years in the house). Our youngest will graduate Hs in 5 years and we are staying at least until that happens.

More updates from throughout the day… Not sure on the leak/low Freon theory. To have both units all of a sudden be that low is very long odds to say the least. The temp change and lack of ability to get to the set temp on thermostat started yesterday. Unless there is a "catastrophic" leak on both, separate and closed systems, I'm not buying that. Nobody was home because the AC guy came really early vs. appt time so he only checked the condenser coils outside.

Have a friend's brother who is in commercial HVAC coming by to put his equipment on it to pressure check for leaks. I really don't want to spend the crazy money for a unit that uses the less efficient 410 coolant and the coil is made of aluminum. Way it was worded to me, copper: easy to fix leaks, uses R22 at lower pressure and more efficient. Aluminum: harder to fix leaks, uses 410 at higher pressure, which means more likely to pop leaks, which again, are harder to fix.

Fingers crossed he finds a leak, and it's a simple fix.
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TXAGGIES
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7:03a, 5/20/23
Just wait until the libs get A2L in regulation in 2025. Cost will increase again and you get more flammable gas in your system... but its better for the environment
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BenTheGoodAg
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7:38a, 5/20/23
AG
It's not unusual for a lightning strike like that to damage some electrical components across the neighborhood. But what you described likely wouldn't cause complete failure of whole HVAC units days and weeks later. You might see individual components fail (ie control board, motor, capacitor), but I bet there's more to the story about the neighbor's stuff.

There are some really good HVAC guys out there, but it seems like there are also so many that are new to the game that can't/don't diagnose issues like they used to and just push to replace.
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1208HawkTree
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In reply to BenTheGoodAg • 9:36a, 5/20/23
AG
BenTheGoodAg said:
It's not unusual for a lightning strike like that to damage some electrical components across the neighborhood. But what you described likely wouldn't cause complete failure of whole HVAC units days and weeks later. You might see individual components fail (ie control board, motor, capacitor), but I bet there's more to the story about the neighbor's stuff.

There are some really good HVAC guys out there, but it seems like there are also so many that are new to the game that can't/don't diagnose issues like they used to and just push to replace.


I don't believe it was a lightning strike in this instance. Weather that evening was good. I only remember that because ironically, I had just finished rinsing my coils outside a couple hours before the lights flickered.

Have a friend who works in commercial HVAC stopping by tomorrow morning for a second, unbiased diagnosis. Both units as of this morning are essentially big fans.
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BenTheGoodAg
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In reply to 1208HawkTree • 9:54a, 5/20/23
AG
Got it. I don't think failure modes of a system surge vs a lightning event would act much different in this case and it doesn't sound like it's related to your issue.

ETA - I was referring to your neighbors diagnosis vs replacing above.
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tgivaughn
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In reply to 1208HawkTree • 10:44a, 5/20/23
AG
I can EZily get behind all that and can cite examples for your prudent case ahead.

That said, I have already forgotten the crazy money spent 2 years ago, even since pampered by a HVAC system with less than 1/2 the repairs (Consumer Reports data) than the 2 previous ones R22 & 410.
Even if you sell in 5+ years, think
resale
being pampered
sale, move out, forced to buy new owners a pampering HVAC you never got to enjoy
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Ribeye-Rare
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In reply to 1208HawkTree • 2:00p, 5/20/23
AG
Quote:
Just had a guy out to look and long story short, we got a quote that boggles my mind to replace both of ours.
It's always 'funny' to me how often I hear this from folks who may just need some relatively minor repair (either electrical or a low charge due to a leak) and yet the A/C guy sees that their system is 'old' and tells him that:

(i) you're throwing good money after bad on fixing a system like this;
(ii) they don't use this refrigerant any more -- it's 'outlawed';
(iii) the government and your electrical provider will give you 'credits' to cover most of the cost of a new system; and,
(iv) you need to do the right thing for your kids.

Followed by -- "I've worked up a quote for you. Sign here right under where it says $15K and we'll get started."

Even my own elderly mother (in another town) fell for this ruse. When I found out, I was angry but I didn't say anything to her about it. She thought she did well.

Now (2023) that R410A is the new 'obsolete' refrigerant (as was R22), I'll bet a lot of people will be getting this treatment this summer.

I've witnessed that the retirement of a lot of the older techs has made A/C contractors hire marginally qualified warm bodies and some of those guys are pretty green and mistake prone. Plus, systems used to be more simple to troubleshoot and diagnose. For a lot of companies, it's now much 'easier' to cut the refrigerant lines, replace the outdoor and indoor units, braze the lines back together, evacuate and charge than it is to actually fix an existing system.

TLDR; -- be there when your second opinion guy comes around and shows you there's no refrigerant in the system and if it's true tell him you'll pay him to find the leak. R22 was a great refrigerant. It runs at relatively low pressures and as a results folks didn't experience near as many leaks and blown coils as they do now.

Since you mentioned an electrical storm - I'd be more prone to check a breaker, contactor or capacitor (or electronic board) before I would have thought a leak would be created.

Final thought - yes, R22 is expensive but other refrigerants have gone up, too. Also, the cheaper R407C is a drop-in replacement for R22, and unless your compressor is so old it uses the older mineral oil lubricant, can be put in an existing system with no compressor change out.

Good luck.
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RoyVal
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In reply to Texker • 7:00p, 5/21/23
AG
Texker said:
OP that sucks. Definitely suspicious.

Does anybody have experience with a soft start product on your home units?

https://www.microair.net/pages/easystart-soft-starters
yep. I installed one on my 4 ton AC end of hurricane season last year. Took my start up amps from 127 down to around 40. great little box!
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redag06
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In reply to BrazosDog02 • 9:34a, 5/22/23
BrazosDog02 said:
Do you have surge protection on the house? You should. And then get a compressor saver surge protector for the disconnect.

Pretty suspicious but if all units are that old and you had a power blip, it's not that unusual. Probably have more die in in the coming weeks.
Be careful with the compressor saver surge protector. We had one on our (can't recall the brand) and it started a fire on the side of our home. Luckily it as mounted to brick and it was not an issue other than cleanup. But when I had my a/c guy out he said that he has seen the same brand cause several fires and some where not on brick walls unfortunately.
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BrazosDog02
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In reply to redag06 • 10:57a, 5/22/23
AG
I'd sure like to know the Brand, make, and model of the surge protector. I've never heard of this happening, so if it is, then that's kind of a massive problem. Kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't. Some manufacturers require it for maintaining warranties per my understanding.

ETA: Just found this:

https://mocoshow.com/blog/fire-caused-by-recalled-surge-protector-thursday-evening/

This is certainly less than ideal.

EDIT AGAIN: I have read some pros on the HVAC forums say you don't need a surge protector at all, so, take my ill informed comment with a grain of salt and ask your own pro. I have always installed them on my units because I was always told they were required or good to have.
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E
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4:38p, 5/22/23
AG
Maybe you have a junkie in the neighborhood huffing all the freon...
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EMY92
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6:30p, 5/22/23
AG
Back when I was in the HVAC business, I heard about a contractor in the Lubbock area that used a pellet gun, would shoot condensing units, then approach the homeowner and say that he was driving by and noticed the unit leaking. Another would go to the unit, flip the breaker, then approach the front door.

Also, do not buy Goodman, they're garbage, and I feel that I've insulted garbage.
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BenTheGoodAg
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In reply to EMY92 • 8:00p, 5/22/23
AG
Lubbock you say? Shocked.

What a couple of *******s.
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Gordon McKernan
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In reply to EMY92 • 4:55p, 5/23/23
Our AC guy, who is also a personal friend and someone I trust completely & has a good reputation in our area, told me that Goodman has gotten quite a bit better after being acquired by Daikin.

He gave me the following run down:

American Standard, Trane, Carrier - good units, but expensive & always on back-order, parts can be hard to find. Not sure if for all three but at least one of them he said was a pain to work on as well (can't remember which one)
Lennox - the worst in his opinion. Don't know why he thinks that but that's what he said.
Goodman - always have parts available & easy to work on. Quality has gotten a lot better over recent years & is a good value.



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tgivaughn
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In reply to Gordon McKernan • 5:46p, 5/23/23
AG
I agree with most of that but only b/c Goodman invested a ton o money in Houston facilities = better srvices & stock.

That said, no one keeps tabs on repairs then Consumer Reports = buy a copy or subscription, which is deductible for me. So my feedback local to Aggieland and CR ratings below
Although Goodman has improved their CR rating, they remain tops in first-cost homebuilder profit-taking locally.




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88agswin
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7:07p, 5/23/23
AG
and in that report they don't even have Daikin which is the largest mfg in the world.
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AgLA06
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In reply to 88agswin • 10:56a, 5/25/23
AG
Well, they own Goodman and that's their main brand for Texas if I remember correctly.
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KRamp90
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11:22a, 5/25/23
AG
I had a Goodman installed when my Trane went out. Efficiency rating is sub par. However, it was half the price, and came with a lifetime parts and labor warranty. It is also loud, but not annoyingly so. Little to no difference in my electric bill. I am in Austin, and its a heat pump.
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MGS
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1:27p, 5/25/23
FWIW, I've got two 19-year-old Amana (Goodman) units that are still running strong.
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Jack Ruby
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9:31p, 5/25/23
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88agswin
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In reply to AgLA06 • 6:26a, 5/26/23
AG
AgLA06 said:
Well, they own Goodman and that's their main brand for Texas if I remember correctly.
They do own Goodman and Amana and they are made in the same facility right here in Waller, TX....however the Daikin is NOT made on the same assembly line and is NOT the same as Goodman and Amana. The Goodman and Amana units are both budget units. Daikin itself has a much larger footprint than many of the names on the list. Daikin has a better warranty than any of them and I can put a Daikin Fit variable speed system in for less money than the Trane 2 speed unit. Trane is also still backlogged on warranty parts. I am not knocking Trane in general and still sell them....There will always be people that will buy the mercedes of AC systems. We just offer the choice and let the homeowners decide.
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BrazosDog02
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7:37a, 5/26/23
AG
I had a Daikin system. Two stage, VS blower, it was sweet. 10 or 12 year parts and labor warranty, manufactured 30 minutes from my house. Never had a single issue from it. The Lennox on the other hand had a 14 day lead time on their 10 year warranty. Warranty was great, waiting two weeks for a part to be shipped from wherever the **** they come from sucked.
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tgivaughn
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In reply to 1208HawkTree • 4:34p, 5/26/23
AG
... and the Solution was? Inquiring minds need to know ....
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JMR
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In reply to Ribeye-Rare • 7:21a, 5/30/23
S
Ribeye-Rare said:
Quote:
Just had a guy out to look and long story short, we got a quote that boggles my mind to replace both of ours.
It's always 'funny' to me how often I hear this from folks who may just need some relatively minor repair (either electrical or a low charge due to a leak) and yet the A/C guy sees that their system is 'old' and tells him that:

(i) you're throwing good money after bad on fixing a system like this;
(ii) they don't use this refrigerant any more -- it's 'outlawed';
(iii) the government and your electrical provider will give you 'credits' to cover most of the cost of a new system; and,
(iv) you need to do the right thing for your kids.

Followed by -- "I've worked up a quote for you. Sign here right under where it says $15K and we'll get started."

Even my own elderly mother (in another town) fell for this ruse. When I found out, I was angry but I didn't say anything to her about it. She thought she did well.

Now (2023) that R410A is the new 'obsolete' refrigerant (as was R22), I'll bet a lot of people will be getting this treatment this summer.

I've witnessed that the retirement of a lot of the older techs has made A/C contractors hire marginally qualified warm bodies and some of those guys are pretty green and mistake prone. Plus, systems used to be more simple to troubleshoot and diagnose. For a lot of companies, it's now much 'easier' to cut the refrigerant lines, replace the outdoor and indoor units, braze the lines back together, evacuate and charge than it is to actually fix an existing system.

TLDR; -- be there when your second opinion guy comes around and shows you there's no refrigerant in the system and if it's true tell him you'll pay him to find the leak. R22 was a great refrigerant. It runs at relatively low pressures and as a results folks didn't experience near as many leaks and blown coils as they do now.

Since you mentioned an electrical storm - I'd be more prone to check a breaker, contactor or capacitor (or electronic board) before I would have thought a leak would be created.

Final thought - yes, R22 is expensive but other refrigerants have gone up, too. Also, the cheaper R407C is a drop-in replacement for R22, and unless your compressor is so old it uses the older mineral oil lubricant, can be put in an existing system with no compressor change out.

Good luck.
spot on!!
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