Need some input because I am losing my mind:

- Trying to replace a standard single pole light switch in the bathroom with a switch+LED guide light. This just allows for some light in there at night for visits.

- New switch requires a white neutral wire in addition to hot, load, and ground (already wired to existing switch)

- Using the same hot, load, and ground wires, I pulled the neutral/white wire that was paired with my hot (black) out of a white wire pigtail to use on the new switch.

- When I turn the breaker back on, the new switch does nothing. No main light, no guide light, all dead. The switch next to it for the fan works just fine, so I know the breaker isn't flipping back off immediately.

- Tried flipping hot and load, just cause maybe I screwed up. Same result, nada.

- Put the old basic switch back on there and everything works just fine. So this tells me that I don't have wires touching that might be causing a problem. That was my only other thought.

- Even tried removing the LED bulb and using an older CFL bulb and still nothing.

- Have tried 2 different brands of switch/night light with the same result. I assumed the first one was a defective unit. No way I got 2 brand new defective units from different companies.


WHAT AM I MISSING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm guessing it would have something to do with the white wire, but if that's the case, why would the switch not work? The instructions say the white is only for the night light part.

Why did you pull the neutral out of a pigtail? Seems unnecessary. And what happened to the other half of the pigtail? Did you wire it to the switch too?

So I have 4 white wires all coming into the box that were pigtailed together using a wire nut. So I pulled one out, recapped the other 3, and used it for the switch.

I also have 3 other black load wires coming into the box that have a small piece of wire coming out that is used as the load on the current switch. Those are pigtailed together and capped the same as the extra whites.

Wait, I see, the night light needs the neutral so that it can run when the switch is turned off.

But by just removing a white wire from the 4 pigtailed together and not connecting it back in, you killed or bypassed a portion the circuit. Without seeing the rest of the box none of us can really say, but my guess is one of those other white wires, if wired to your switch, would at least power up the night light.

My guess is the easiest fix would be to run a white jumper to that group of 4 white wires pigtailed together.

Would that explain why even the light switch doesn't work? I guess that circuit needs to be continued for the hot black wire to work?

DeBoss said:

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So I have 4 white wires all coming into the box that were pigtailed together using a wire nut. So I pulled one out, recapped the other 3, and used it for the switch.

I also have 3 other black load wires coming into the box that have a small piece of wire coming out that is used as the load on the current switch. Those are pigtailed together and capped the same as the extra whites.

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Ok yeah that's what I mean by jumper. I could be using that term incorrectly. Not an expert at all but I did just rewire/relocate a bunch of switches while renovating my house. I hesitate to give out too much advice since I can't see the box, but it does seem like the easiest way would be for you to run a short wire from that bunch of white wires to you switch, just like they did the hot side. trouble is that's 5 wires in one wire nut and depending on the wire gauge that might be one too many.

The alternative would be to take the white wire that you removed from the pigtail, run it to the switch, and then run your short white wire from the same post back to the pigtail.

DeBoss said:

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Would that explain why even the light switch doesn't work? I guess that circuit needs to be continued for the hot black wire to work?

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Depends on which white wire you removed from the pigtail, and what its function is. Again tough to say without seeing it. But yes that's my guess. whichever white wire you removed cut off the neutral returning from the load.

DeBoss said:

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So I have 4 white wires all coming into the box that were pigtailed together using a wire nut. So I pulled one out, recapped the other 3, and used it for the switch.

I also have 3 other black load wires coming into the box that have a small piece of wire coming out that is used as the load on the current switch. Those are pigtailed together and capped the same as the extra whites.

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This is likely your problem. Only one of those neutrals is the return wire to the panel; therefore, the neutrals should all remain tied together. Your switch probably has its own set of wires (flying leads) for Source (Blk), Load (Blk), Neutral (Wht), and Ground (Grn). Instead of pulling a neutural out of the existing bundle, you need to add the switch White wire to the bundle so ultimately you will have 5 Neutrals under one wire nut. You may need a larger wire nut to accommodate this.

DeBoss said:

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So I have 4 white wires all coming into the box that were pigtailed together using a wire nut. So I pulled one out, recapped the other 3, and used it for the switch.

I also have 3 other black load wires coming into the box that have a small piece of wire coming out that is used as the load on the current switch. Those are pigtailed together and capped the same as the extra whites.

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Agree with above. You disconnected something. You should be adding into that birds nest, not removing/re-purposing existing wires.

'03ag said:

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Wait, I see, the night light needs the neutral so that it can run when the switch is turned off.

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Technically, a night light would work with out the neutral (like the old pilot light switches), but it means artificially introducing current onto your ground, which you don't want to do.

DeBoss said:

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- Using the same hot, load, and ground wires, I pulled the neutral/white wire that was paired with my hot (black) out of a white wire pigtail to use on the new switch.

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To put it succinctly, you plugged a power strip back into itself.

Regular switch, which interrupts the circuit to shut off the light
breaker---> black wire ---> light switch --> light fixture --> white wire --> neutral bus bar in your panel

Night light switch
breaker---> black wire ---> night light switch
neutral bus bar in your panel--> white wire --> light fixture
neutral bus bar in your panel--> white wire --> night light switch

The night light switch is essentially flipping back and forth between turning on your light fixture or turning on your night light. When you pulled the wire out, you got this

breaker---> black wire ---> night light switch
nothing --> white wire --> light fixture
nothing --> white wire --> night light switch

Power needs an innie and an outie, you took away the outie. Need to be REALLY careful about disconnecting random neutrals like that. In plenty of residential applications, a couple of circuits will share the neutral back to the panel to save wire. It makes the installation a multi-wire branch circuit. If you lose the neutral on a multi-wire branch circuit, there is the potential to send 240V across the two circuits, and then bad things happen to your tv, appliances, phone charger, etc.

DeBoss said:

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I also have 3 other black load wires coming into the box that have a small piece of wire coming out that is used as the load on the current switch. Those are pigtailed together and capped the same as the extra whites.

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I think you mean line. And the whites aren't extra.

Thanks for the input and the heads up on being careful with the whites. The switch itself did not come with any wires, which is why I'm using the ones I already had on the old switch.

So based on what I'm hearing, taking a short "jumper" wire from my switch back into the pigtailed whites is going to be the best plan?

Adding the 2 pics I took of it:




Pic 1
Pic 2

Yes you'll need a jumper regardless. Like I said before you'll need to make sure the wire nut can handle 5 wires, or you can wire one of the existing white wires to the switch, then run the jumper back to the wire nut.

I prefer using the back wire clamps rather than wrapping the lead around the post. seen here around the 2:50 mark.


It will make it easier to wire through the switch if going that route. It makes it easier to wire two leads to one terminal.

Tonight I'm going to add a quick jumper from the white and see if that works. Either it will work, my house will burn down, or I'm going to give up on ever doing electrical again.

Thanks fellas.

DeBoss said:

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Thanks for the input and the heads up on being careful with the whites. The switch itself did not come with any wires, which is why I'm using the ones I already had on the old switch.

So based on what I'm hearing, taking a short "jumper" wire from my switch back into the pigtailed whites is going to be the best plan?

Adding the 2 pics I took of it:




Pic 1
Pic 2

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In pic 1 the neutral wire is made up wrong on the terminal. The wire should be wrapped clockwise around the terminal like the black and ground are.

'03ag said:

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Yes you'll need a jumper regardless. Like I said before you'll need to make sure the wire nut can handle 5 wires, or you can wire one of the existing white wires to the switch, then run the jumper back to the wire nut.

I prefer using the back wire clamps rather than wrapping the lead around the post. seen here around the 2:50 mark.


It will make it easier to wire through the switch if going that route. It makes it easier to wire two leads to one terminal.

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A red wire nut can handle a max of 5 12 gauge wires

haha, my bad. Decided to get drunk the last 2 nights instead of doing electrical. Don't feel like they go well together. Also have to go get 6 inches of 12 gauge to make the jumper because I can't find any in all my extra crap.

EDIT - That was supposed to be a thumbs up.

Ha. Good choice. If you're around Colleyville tomorrow you can pick up a jumper wire from the house I'm renovating. I have a crapload of scrap wire laying around. I'll be in and out all day

Got the wire and installed. Switch works fine but light won't turn on. When i flip the switch on for the lights, the LED flashes like it all of a sudden got power but needs to turn off cause it's now bright. Could I have the load and hot backwards?

DeBoss said:

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Got the wire and installed. Switch works fine but light won't turn on. When i flip the switch on for the lights, the LED flashes like it all of a sudden got power but needs to turn off cause it's now bright. Could I have the load and hot backwards?

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That would be my guess.

You really need to get one of these. Worth every penny when doing any electrical work. It verifies that you cut power to the correct breaker. And it you can use it to distinguish between the hot in and the line out.

Had them backwards. Flipped them last night and everything works perfectly. Thanks for everyone's help. Just another time TexAgs has helped me out. To the point even my wife asks if I checked TexAgs first.