Reasonable price for structural engineering report and other questions

2,530 Views | 22 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by Gary79Ag
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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Long story short - we have a retaining wall and all the hell that comes with it.

We had a structural engineer come out and do a report, and then went looking for somebody to do the work based on his report. He had advised basically excavating behind the wall and putting in proper draining materials as well as a new french drain). We had 4 folks come out and take a look and all of them pretty much agreed the wall could not simply be patched as he had advised. Some of those folks didn't even want to try to bid because this is apparently a larger job than they wanted to take on (part of the wall is double stacked about 6 feet high). Unfortunately, it took a while to get some of these folks out, so it may be that the wall has deteriorated since the original report was done as well.

We have had one company that has been very professional, has come out a few times to look and I do think they know what it would take to fix the wall. That said, they're not sure you can easily patch the wall either. They've recommended a second structural report, but the guy they recommended wants $500 (about 2x what the previous one cost). Obviously red flags went off in my head since this is their recommendation, but the guy seems to be a legitimate structural engineer with an independent business and I don't think there is any sort of collusion here.

I'm at a loss as it seems like most folks we've had out agree the wall can't be patched as the original engineer suggests, but also tend to give me the line of "you don't want to know what it will cost to replace entirely", but I clearly have to figure out how to handle this. So far, most folks are suggesting somewhere between $20-30K for a complete rebuild (the wall is about 100 linear feet, with about 35% of that being a double stacked wall that goes from 5.5-6 feet high...the remainder is about 3-3.5 feet tall), while the one company has said that they would be willing to give us a better price if they could use the resulting wall for promotional materials.

I'm not sure how to proceed. We have a report, but can't find anyone that is willing to take on the job outlined in the report (and the engineer has not offered any help in identifying a trusted company, which isn't his job so I understand). We have found some folks willing to do the work, but they want another report done because they're not comfortable with the approach initially selected. We don't plan to live here forever, so I'm trying to figure how to avoid a small-medium sized car payment for a wall at a house we don't want to live in for more than another 3-5 years. So I feel like my options suck given the combination of price, suggested work and being able to find a reputable company to do the work.

Any advice is welcome.

In Dallas (Rockwall) if anyone has specific recs.

sellthefarm
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What's the wall made of?
Absolute
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Engineers vary just like any other professional. 400 to 500 is pretty typical for them to do foundation evaluations. Not sure if they change that for walls. Most probably don't.

I have a list I give out if you want it.
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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It's stone.
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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Absolute said:

Engineers vary just like any other professional. 400 to 500 is pretty typical for them to do foundation evaluations. Not sure if they change that for walls. Most probably don't.

I have a list I give out if you want it.


Thanks absolute. I'm going to talk to this guy on Saturday and if I'm still searching after that I'll let you know and get the list.
UnderoosAg
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Absolute said:

Engineers vary just like any other professional. 400 to 500 is pretty typical for them to do foundation evaluations. Not sure if they change that for walls. Most probably don't.

I have a list I give out if you want it.


Before reading all of your post completely, I'd have guessed the first guy was about $500. Most structural firms I know of bill their senior engineers at $125-150/hr. Couple of hours to go look at it, couple hours to write report.
sellthefarm
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So what's wrong with the wall that the first engineer just said to redo the backfill and drainage?
Gary79Ag
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Pics would be nice to see!
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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sellthefarm said:

So what's wrong with the wall that the first engineer just said to redo the backfill and drainage?


He basically said it would be too expensive to replace the whole thing and that if we were moving in the next few years, we should just do the backfill/french drain and patch the cracks to stop it from getting worse and let somebody else fix it down the line. It was honestly pretty confusing and I should have probably pressed him for a better explanation. He did say if it were a situation where the HOA were paying, he'd have suggested a complete rebuild, but I think his main point was with that being so expensive, at least patch it and stop the bleeding now and whoever buys the house in the next few years can deal with the rebuild.


I'll try to get some pics tonight.
trip
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As am engineer that writes these type reports, judging by the wording you said, he doesn't want to make a formal recommendation. Typically means he doesn't have enough to formally give a good recommendation.

What I would do if I were you is call the guy. Ask him, OFF THE RECORD, what would you do if he was in your situation. That way he will tell you what he thinks without being legally responsible. He will tell you the truth at that point. Engineers want to help. but they can't always say the truth in a report.

The key is warm him up so he knows nothing legally or through the company won't come down on him.
Absolute
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trip said:

As am engineer that writes these type reports, judging by the wording you said, he doesn't want to make a formal recommendation. Typically means he doesn't have enough to formally give a good recommendation.

What I would do if I were you is call the guy. Ask him, OFF THE RECORD, what would you do if he was in your situation. That way he will tell you what he thinks without being legally responsible. He will tell you the truth at that point. Engineers want to help. but they can't always say the truth in a report.

The key is warm him up so he knows nothing legally or through the company won't come down on him.


Kind of sounds ds like he did that in the explanation above. As I am in a similar type field, I get it as well.

I am also curious as to why the repair guy wants another/different engineer to look at it. Wonder if he is afraid to get left holding the bag.

Retaining walls sure do suck around here.
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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I asked him over the phone and was basically told I needed to contact Landscape Contractors. The problem is most of those guys seem to be interested in smaller jobs. Honestly, this thing looks/feels more like a foundation job in size/scale than a typical 2-3 foot retaining wall from stone or brick.

I'll try and get you guys some more pics.

I think the main reason the other guys suggested another report was just that they didn't feel that the recommendations he made would work for the wall he was looking at. I would normally disregard that, but it seemed to be the consistent opinion of folks who looked at the wall (basically that redoing the drainage would still leave a wall that was obviously patched together and would cost me big when we went to sell).

At this point, even I'm kind of happy to get a second opinion and this time I'll be there, so I'll be able to get more of his "off the record, not an official recommendation" thoughts on the thing.
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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Pic time...







JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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These pics are all from the report, so they're not necessarily great overall at capturing the wall, but are more specifically pointing out the points of distress.
Absolute
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Did I come look at your shower problem?
Agineer
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I would contact Falkofske Engineering if you want a second opinion.

I am not affiliated with them but they know their stuff when it comes to rubble walls.
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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Absolute said:

Did I come look at your shower problem?


YES.

Lol. I just realized that.

This house has been super fun.
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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Agineer said:

I would contact Falkofske Engineering if you want a second opinion.

I am not affiliated with them but they know their stuff when it comes to rubble walls.


Thanks! I'm looking for all the recs I can simply because I want to make sure folks have some incentive to be honest and not just give us the biggest job they can.
Absolute
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Ok. Thought I recognized the wall. Can understand the contractors wanting more input now. That is not a simple wall.
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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Yeah - thinking back about when you came out, I'm pretty sure you recommended we get somebody to come take a look at the wall. It's definitely a beast.
Gary79Ag
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If they didn't install a french drain or something similar behind the wall when it was built, it was a disaster in the making. Gotta have a decent water drainage system behind it due to normal water drainage hydraulics for a wall of that size!
AgEngineer72
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There are drain pipes showing in the pictures so it seems reasonable that there are some provision for drainage. After seeing the pics I understand any reluctance to take on the job. But I also wonder if it wouldn't be prudent to do a repair on the lower front and leave the bulk of the wall alone. Especially if your time window is 2-5 years. Of course the wall status may be deceiving from tge limited anount I can see.
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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Yeah - I think that is generally what the first SE was saying as far as fix the drainage issues, repair the parts of the wall currently damaged and then get out before you have to do the full thing.

Again though, what I'm learning, is that having an SE recommend me do something and finding a reputable company willing to actually implement the plan are two wildly different things.

I think the drainage is probably there behind the wall, but either clogged or crushed or something else that is preventing it from working. The discoloration is new since we've moved in (2 years almost exactly), but I'm not sure if that is something that could have been "fixed" while the house was sold to us. The left of the stairs was obivously patched and that was done before we moved in, so it wouldn't shock me if this was all an issue a while back and it's just really starting to manifest itself at this point.

The moral of the story - don't buy a house with a retaining wall.
Gary79Ag
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AgEngineer72 said:

There are drain pipes showing in the pictures so it seems reasonable that there are some provision for drainage. After seeing the pics I understand any reluctance to take on the job. But I also wonder if it wouldn't be prudent to do a repair on the lower front and leave the bulk of the wall alone. Especially if your time window is 2-5 years. Of course the wall status may be deceiving from tge limited anount I can see.
It's one thing just putting in a few drain pipes through the wall to allow drainage through the wall, but a wall of that size needs a french drainage system installed behind it with 4" minimum dainage pipes that drain out either in the lower level yard area or out to the street area. Lots of hydraulics/pressures occurring behind that wall if one is not installed properly!

Needs something like this back there...

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