Need some advice and/or tips.

Existing Conditions:
- Pine 1 X 8 clapboard on framing w/ roofing felt
- Cementitious 12 X 24 shingle siding over clapboard w/ roofing felt

You can see both here:


Once I remove the existing siding, I'm going to install insulation before installing the new siding. Hardie offers two options - attaching the Hardieplank directly to the framing, or over 7/16" OSB with a vapor barrier between either.



- Is there any particular benefit to adding OSB, other than for extra coverage?

- If the OSB is going on the sunny sides (S & W) of the house, is there a benefit to using radiant barrier OSB? Is it worth the extra $1.80/sheet?

- I've seen some debate on Tyvek vs. felt. Does it really matter? Does it matter attaching it to framing vs. OSB?

- Any other advice or tips anyone cares to offer?



[This message has been edited by Ryan the Temp (edited 2/14/2011 1:57p).]

I don't know much about this but I do remember how heavy the Hardie planks were and that we had to use screws, not nails to attach it. Why are you planning to remove the existing siding? Couldn't you just wrap the walls with your barrier and screw the planks to your siding? Tyvex and stryofoam is what was used on our house.

We need to insulate the walls.

the OSB will help keep your home a little quieter maybe and keep any waviness from showing up too badly in the siding, but other than that its not really necessary. As for the felt vs. tyvek, they are both a little silly in my opinion. The whole idea behind a moiture barrier is to provide a "seamless" weather barrier.....but how do you attach it? With nails and staples....many little holes with a weather barrier thats no longer continuous. Then, you put your siding over that and add ever more nail holes. Anyway, I think Hardi says you have to use it, so be sure you follow their installation instructions or else they void their warranty. FYI, when we had ours installed, we had rigid insulation existing, which then had OSB installed over it, then tyvek, and then the hardiplanks. I was not so sure about putting the OSB over the rigid insulation (since the rigid can be compressed and damage) but the hardi rep was loving it as long as we anchored back to the studs and not just the insulation itself.

RoperJoe -

Did they use screws or nails? I had thought about putting some rigid foam on. The hangup for me there is the idea of having to modify the door and window frames to compensate for the added wall thickness.

The door and window frame issue is not as big as you'd think. It's really just stock trim, and it disappears once you caulk and paint.

I would definitely make sure you sheath, if not with bracing, some product that's designed to carry a load like OSB -- or the actual proper application of QuietBrace.

I've decided to install OSB with 1/2" rigid foam. My understanding is rigid foam will negate the need for felt or Tyvek if I tape the joints.

I think this type of application will necessitate using screws to attach the Hardie, but I'm not 100% sure.

We were told nails would pull out of Hardiplank too easily and not to hammer it...hubby drilled small pilot holes and used screws.

I don't have the time to look it up right now, but the Hardi instructions posted on the website and are really very clear. I'm 99% certain you can still use nails over the rigid foam. Can I suggest that you use the metal-faced rigid foam for that little extra radiant barrier protection?

quote:

---

We were told nails would pull out of Hardiplank too easily and not to hammer it...hubby drilled small pilot holes and used screws.

---

This is true, but for different reasons than you might think -- you can fracture/shatter the Hardi by trying to set the nail with a hammer and beating the surface of the material. You need to use a pneumatic framing or roofing nailer that will set the nail below the surface. Nails will not pull out if you a) use ring shank nails, b) make sure you're using the nail gun right, set the gun so it sets the nail flush with the material, and refrain from bounce nailing. With the lapboard, you should not have any exposed nails at all except on the trim.

I'm actually about to re-side as well, but I'm replacing T-11 plywood, so I'm using hardipanel instead. I'm using 2" ring shank flat-headed framing nails, and I'm setting the nails about an 8th of an inch below the surface and caulking over the holes.

What caulk you use is important. I've found that the GE and DAP paintable caulks crack way too easily in the sun that we have down here. I've found that BigStretch caulk works pretty darned well.

The big note I wanted to point out is that with lapboard specifically you install the trim first, and then install the lapboard between it. This requires a lot higher degree of precision when you're cutting, but if you read the fine print you void the warranty if you don't. (All stylecraft houses are built this way, which is great for Stylecraft because their liability for anything ends at 10 years and they don't care at that point of the Hardi blows off the side of the house and Hardi doesn't cover it.) Other things that will void your Hardi warranty are installing dissimilar materials (i.e. wood trim with lapboard siding, or wood soffit with lapboard siding) and failing to seal and keep sealed the entire envelope so that water doesn't penetrate into the cement fiber material, which COULD cause it to swell or fracture. You absolutely cannot rip down 1"x4" trim to 1"x2", and you are not supposed to miter corners.

Watch how deep your window trim is if you're adding sheathing without replacing the windows. You will need to make sure that you don't leave a gap between the edge of the window sash and the trim, 1 inch of sheathing+trim can mean a big gap.

[This message has been edited by superspeck (edited 2/15/2011 2:04p).]

Well, I'm probably going to void the warranty immediately. I can't replace the trim to architectural details as they exist today without using wood trim.

As for the gap between the trim and the window frame, I'm probably going to just face the frame with additional trim that extends out farther.

"My understanding is rigid foam will negate the need for felt or Tyvek if I tape the joints."

This is incorrect. Rigid foam does not provide a vapor barrier unless it has a facing on it. Just follow the instructions that Hardi has to maintain warranty. You can shim out the window trim if the depth is a problem. Good luck!

The Owens Corning rigid foam has a clear plastic coating.

Hardies warranty is voided on 99.9% of all houses made. If you countersink one nail, its voided. You def can't strip a 1x4 as the poster above mentioned. Again, as I've mentioned, if you want a superior product, SmartSide > Hardie. Stonger and easier to use. Same fire rating and won't rot. Only 50 year warrantied product. Looks better too.

And there's only one approved lap siding that's direct to stud. 7/16 SmartSide Lap and Panel. Hardie shanks or nails will still give you trouble.

I've been told Smartside is not a cementitious product. Having cemetitious siding is of significant benefit to my homeowners policy in Harris County. (most carriers won't even write a policy on a house without cementitious siding in Harris County)

SmartSide is a composite resin product, not a cementitious product. Even though it has SOME of the same benefits, it doesn't get you the same insurance benefits that a cementitious product will.

That's really interesting because the TX Dept of Insurance says that FC on wood frame should be rated as stucco not masonry. Visit TDI website for more details. One of the biggest myths

Warranty Comparison
LP SmartSide:
All products are covered by the same 5(labor and material refund)5/50 transferrable warranty

Fiber Cement:
Hardie Lap- 30 yr warranty (as of May 09) (not transferrable)
Cemplank Lap- 25 yr warranty
Trim- 10 yr warranty
Panel- 25 yr warranty

Product Attributes Comparison
LP SmartSide:
• 16’ lengths provide 33% fewer seams
• 1 HOUR Fire Rating
• NAHB found it installs a minimum of 12% (and up to 36% ) faster than fiber cement
• Absorbs significantly less paint than fiber cement
• Panels (8’,9’,10’) are structurally rated and can be applied direct to stud (no additional sheathing required)
• Silica-free- Environmentally friendly, safe, requires no special tooling- cuts like real wood
• Strong and flexible- significantly less breakage on jobsite
• Affordable
• Aesthetically Looks like natural wood
Fiber Cement:
• 12’ lengths result in 33% more seams
• Absorbs significant amount of paint
• Installs minimum 12% slower than LP SmartSide
• Not structurally rated
• Requires special tooling and masks, contains silica
• Warranty voided for many nailing practices


[This message has been edited by therealfan (edited 2/17/2011 8:48a).]

I was looking to switch insurance carriers several months ago, and there was no one reputable who would write a policy in Harris County on my home unless I had cementitious siding. Even my current carrier said the requirements for their new policies require cementitious siding.

Total BS, imo, especially considering my house is 75 years old.

That is, I would contact the TX Dept of Insurance and complain. You shouldn't have to do that.

I'm not really worried about it, and I'm not doing the project to satisfy my insurance carrier. The clapboard siding just won't take paint anymore, so I figured it was a good opportunity to go ahead and replace it. As much as I hate to lose that historic home charm of clapboard siding, I like the Colonial style Hardie as a reasonable alternative.

The really nice part of the project is the ability to retrofit my exterior walls with insulation, fire stops, and other structural and energy efficient components. I'm going to have a better house when I'm done.

Realfan....some of your info on hardie is incorrect. You can shim out windows if need be. You can install haride plank direct to studs. Neither of these will void warranty.

The installation instructions also indicate Hardie Trim can be attached over Hardie Plank in addition to abutting it.

You can Roperjoe but you absolutely have to have a backing. that's all I was saying. Hardie has changed thier installation practices 4 times in 6 years. You may want to double check because they don't stand behind their products and unless every one of your galvanized nails are not countersinked, the James Hardie warranty is as good as the piece of paper it's on. See their lawsuits in Australia.

TheRealFan is the only person I've found who is a fan of LP SmartSide. I've talked to builders, wholesalers, renovation guys, etc. and NONE of them had good things to say about the product or LP.

That's funny superspeck, because I work with builders for a living, as well as framers. Name my a framer that loves working with Brittle Hardie. I do this for a living. Onyx HOmes, Darling, Pulte, KHov, Landon, LGI, Horton, Cheldan, Bloomfield, I could go on and on are builders in the State of TX that use LP SmartSide of some sort.

I don't know why you're calling me out when I'm just adding info to a thread. If you want to use a more expensive, brittle, less warrantied product go ahead. If someone loves working with it, that's fine, but in the field-that's never the case. breakage, re-painting this pourous product, maybe someone wants to deal with it.

The reality is Hardie in the 90's did a great PR job on the consumer. It doesn't change over night.

Smartside has sold over 7 billion feet in the US the last 16 years. It's out there, it's proven. Turn the page.

Go to Woodson Lumber ask for Bill or McCoy's. McCoy's Bryan is the to LP SmartSide dealer in the State in volume. Borski Builders uses it locally. Stylecraft has used the trim in the past.

[This message has been edited by therealfan (edited 2/18/2011 8:15p).]

Hardie is a good product but Smartboard gives you better results. Framers love it, Consumers love it.

Advantech is the best sub-floor on the market. It's Value added OSB. Are there old dogs that call it "waferwood" and say it's particle chip board and say Plywood is superior? sure. But just look at the facts and the research. That's all. There ARE other alternatives.

[This message has been edited by therealfan (edited 2/18/2011 8:16p).]

I called a couple of the dealers who were listed on their website for my area. A couple of them refuse to sell it, and 3 others basically said, "Sure, we can order it, but why would you want to use it?" None of them had anything nice to say about it.

Who'd you talk to? They're going to sell material in their yard or what they can't get rid of, they're order takers. I used to work at a lumberyard.

That, I think, was the point of two people who have actually done research into the product and talked to people about it ... even the order-takers won't take orders for it, even when you aren't asking for their honest opinion. They offered their opinion, pointed out that they actually make more on it, and point out the upsides like how the lengths are more convenient for DIYers.

The guy at McCoy's chopped a few feet off a piece of Hardi trim and a piece of smartside trim. He proceeded to beat on it in a few ways and we looked closely at the results. The hardi outperformed the SmartSide in every result. This obviously wasn't a laboratory test, but I'd now be leery of having smartside on my house in a hailstorm.

The advice was unasked for -- it was offered, to the supply house's detriment. The demonstration was unasked for, but was the simple result of a skeptical "Why are you telling me this then?" The answer was "Because we don't like selling this stuff and watching people have problems with it, we don't trust LP products, and we don't think you should buy it, especially as a DIYer that has no one to turn to but us and the manufacturer for resolution when there's problems. We don't want to see you come back. Use Hardi. The smartSide is crap."

You've pumped SmartSide around here for years, therealfan. Those of us who have re-sided have repeatedly rebuffed you, and all you do is get more angry that we're using the competitor's product. You insist that you don't work for the manufacturer or anything ... I don't know why you're still pushing it...

Actually I've pumped a lot of products, even Certainteed Fibercement. You facts in a comparison are with a order taker at a lumberyard. I've seen way too many ppl burned by hardi in the past. soak a piece of smart trim. Soak fibercement. See how it performs. I'm not getting angry but were all Ags here, I think-and if disputing that its not a good alternative than you really haven't done you research. If its a DIY project, there really is no argument. If someone is sold on plywood vs osb or cement vs engineered strand then that's fine. If haardie is so great why did they change their warranty? Why is LPs 50 yrs? The LP siding they're referring to is Innerseal. Not SmartSide.

it's funny that I should stumble upon this thread... I work in residential construction, and I had a conversation friday with a colleague about how much better Smartside was than Hardie board. The conversation stemmed from the sagging ceilings on the back porches on 2 seperate houses that we entered, that were side by side no less, in the same neighborhood. Take that for what you will.

[This message has been edited by TheTrillFan (edited 2/20/2011 10:46a).]

If we are talking useless warranties and lawsuits, let us not forget the tremendous lawsuit from "smartside version 1.1, aka Masonite" which I believe nearly broke lp in the 90's. As someone else "in the biz" I can tell you, most builders will prefer to use hardie in my area. The smartside is still a wood product. That said, hardie has a strict warranty. If you can't follow the install instructions, stick with lp. Unless you are going to live in said house forever, it prob does not matter, though buyers are probably in large more comfortable with hardie.