Jon Rahm has said it was the money, the fact he locked up a Masters invite for life, and that when the PGA-LIV agreement happened last summer, he thought they'll come back together (so may as well take the money if it's going to end the same)

And there's the fact that I really didn't take a position and said people are free to argue over whether the Tour has done a good job. But what's not arguable is that the Tour could have compensated guys anywhere close to what LIV is able to compensate them. The fact that so few guys have left, despite the money being offered, suggests most of the guys on Tour are largely satisfied with the Tour. Does that mean it's perfect? No. But clearly a bunch of the Tour doesn't think it's horribly run or a bunch more would have left.

DannyDuberstein said:

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Jon Rahm has said it was the money, the fact he locked up a Masters invite for life, and that when the PGA-LIV agreement happened last summer, he thought they'll come back together (so may as well take the money if it's going to end the same)

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He can say what he wants publicly as he might have to play under the same bad leadership he now despises with the merger. It was very well publicized he felt betrayed by the administration. You can find a dozen similar articles. He left because he was done with horrible PGAT administration. The money was a bonus and there for years.

https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/jon-rahm-pga-players-feel-betrayed-leadership-liv/story?id=100048305

JON RAHM OPENS UP | Breakthrough, Ep. 3 (youtube.com)

I can find him explaining it in his own words. There were a lot of WTFs when they announced the agreement, but he explained how that dynamic changed to him. It opened the door because he expected they'd come together. Feel free to hear it for yourself.

Interviewer: "So there's a different emotion when it's like, OK,,there is a reality here you could get this massive amount of money?"

Rahm: "Yes. Now when they slap you with a large amount of money in your face, your feelings do change. I try not to be a materialistic person, but I do owe it to my family as well to set them up for success as best I can, and having kids I think changed that quite a bit."

Interviewer: You don't need the world ranking points. Did that play a part?

Rahm: "Yes, absolutely. Winning the Masters was a huge step to thinking about it. And having a US Open exemption to 2031. And the dynamic changed. What opened the door to me was when PGA and LIV struck this agreement. So when that happened, I was thinking 'we are definitely coming together so I owe it to myself to hear it out'"

It's very convenient to keep saying the players have control to change when they really don't. The players on the board are lobbied extremely heavily by the same powers that favor Monahan and others. On top of that there aren't nearly enough board positions for enough players to speak for the entire tour, so it's often stacked towards interests that benefit a select few.

That evidence is no sooner obvious than the decision today by Rory to not take over Webb's term to return to the board after all. In this case he might actually be feeling the heat from all the divisiveness that PGAT leadership have been responsible for over the years leading up to and through the LIV era.

To Rory's credit this time he isn't going to wade back to that if there's going to be contention.

It's way more complicated than simple comments like "players could have changed the tour whenever they wanted" or "it was only about money and shorts and music"

So then you agree with my point that the players have an issue getting the elite players and the rank-and-file players to agree. People keep trying to blame the boogeyman when that is the true fundamental issue

I have never disagreed with that. But it isn't the root issue. Stars on the tour had fundamental disagreements with the leadership and it went nowhere. That's why stars left the tour and continue to leave. It's not simply a haves and have nots split.

Elite players, who could change said leadership if the rank-and-file agreed with them. But they don't so they don't. If the players could unify in what they want, it would happen. They don't so it didn't.

But nevertheless, there were guys that were always going to take a 9 figure payday. Everyone has a price. It feels better to say it was something else. I have respect for Varner being one of the few to say it.

Bunk Moreland said:

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I have never disagreed with that. But it isn't the root issue. Stars on the tour had fundamental disagreements with the leadership and it went nowhere. That's why stars left the tour and continue to leave. It's not simply a haves and have nots split.

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Other than Phil's media rights complaint, what specific disagreements are you referring to and by whom?

JCA1 said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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I have never disagreed with that. But it isn't the root issue. Stars on the tour had fundamental disagreements with the leadership and it went nowhere. That's why stars left the tour and continue to leave. It's not simply a haves and have nots split.

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Other than Phil's media rights complaint, what specific disagreements are you referring to and by whom?

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DJ, Reed, Bryson, and Phil were all documented to have had voiced privately issues they had with the tour. Phil was the only one dumb enough to give his opinions somewhat publicly.

Before the LIV talk nobody said a word about the inner workings of the tour, yet every moment since it has been exposed to be more and more embarrassing.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rory-mcilroy-pga-tour-board-questions-answers-2024

Another article about Rory's situation and the behind the scenes that shows just how little power many PGAT members actually have with their board seats. Phantom votes, making up a position to give to Tiger, the aforementioned deal with PIF though none of the players on the board knew about it.

Spare me the players can make change if they want narrative.

Bunk Moreland said:

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JCA1 said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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I have never disagreed with that. But it isn't the root issue. Stars on the tour had fundamental disagreements with the leadership and it went nowhere. That's why stars left the tour and continue to leave. It's not simply a haves and have nots split.

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Other than Phil's media rights complaint, what specific disagreements are you referring to and by whom?

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DJ, Reed, Bryson, and Phil were all documented to have had voiced privately issues they had with the tour. Phil was the only one dumb enough to give his opinions somewhat publicly.

Before the LIV talk nobody said a word about the inner workings of the tour, yet every moment since it has been exposed to be more and more embarrassing.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rory-mcilroy-pga-tour-board-questions-answers-2024

Another article about Rory's situation and the behind the scenes that shows just how little power many PGAT members actually have with their board seats. Phantom votes, making up a position to give to Tiger, the aforementioned deal with PIF though none of the players on the board knew about it.

Spare me the players can make change if they want narrative.

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What were these issues each had and what made them so significant that it was the reason they left?

Did you read the article? It's because the players don't agree with each other. That's the theme throughout. The Woods phantom seat? Players did it. Mcilroy resigning then trying to get back - who was behind it? Players including him. Who blocked it? Other players.

The LIV merger was "we are absolutely outgunned" desperation. Which they are massively outgunned. Figuring out a way to sort that out and get these guys together again is what they should be doing

Not sure. It's been 2 or 3 years. These are just a few of the names I remember being mentioned as having expressed issues privately with the tour and hearing virtually nothing back.

DannyDuberstein said:

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Did you read the article? It's because the players don't agree with each other. That's the theme throughout. The Woods phantom seat? Players did it. Mcilroy resigning then trying to get back - who was behind it? Players including him. Who blocked it? Other players.

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You say players as a monolithic statement in one post and as if they're all fractured in another. You can't have it both ways. That's the entire point. "players" means nothing, especially since one of your original arguments is the Tour of players are all fractured.

Also, if the LIV merger was what you say, then why aren't they doing that? Seems they're doing anything but trying to get back together.

I'm not trying to have anything both ways. I just think this dance to blame someone else for the fact they can't agree is a joke.

It's just bizarre how much people want to insist it's not the hundreds of millions of dollars but always some unexplained and never publicly stated rift with the Tour that's why people left.

Did people have some issues? I'm sure they did. Are you aware of any business anywhere with more than 2 employees where no one has any complaints about their job? Because I'm not. But that doesn't mean that these issues were the primary driving force for why people left. Particularly when there's a giant, flashing neon 9-figure explanation that makes way more sense.

Quote:

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Technically, no; it's an elected position. But when McIlroy resigned it was just the five other player directors who elected Spieth, not the entire tour membership. It's also worth remembering the players created a new position for Woods on the board out of thin air. You're not wrong for thinking everyone is just making this up as they go.

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From the article. The "players" didn't elect Spieth. The board players did. That article doesn't go into detail on how and who decided tiger should be added.

It looks better to blame something vs say "yeah, i just couldn't pass up that amount of money". I don't blame anyone for cashing in.

Bunk Moreland said:

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Quote:

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Technically, no; it's an elected position. But when McIlroy resigned it was just the five other player directors who elected Spieth, not the entire tour membership. It's also worth remembering the players created a new position for Woods on the board out of thin air. You're not wrong for thinking everyone is just making this up as they go.

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From the article. The "players" didn't elect Spieth. The board players did. That article doesn't go into detail on how and who decided tiger should be added.

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Okay then. Exhibit A of these players not getting along and being their own worst enemy of the majority of players wouldn't have been good with him. But nah, it's someone else's fault that they can't get it together

JCA1 said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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Not sure. It's been 2 or 3 years. These are just a few of the names I remember being mentioned as having expressed issues privately with the tour and hearing virtually nothing back.

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So you think the reason DJ left is some vague issue you can't really recall (and may just be a rumor since he didn't say it publicly) and not the $125 million? That's really what you believe?

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I don't believe many if any of the true top players on LIV left solely for the money. They all had various reasons for leaving. Brooks likely because of his injury situation at the time. Old guys of course took the bag so LIV could buomd a bench. Other guys excited to try and build something new or be able to play internationally near or in their home countries who don't base their lives around the USA. Other guys for the equity options team play and a F1 world league formula could bring. Other guys due to grievances with the PGAT.

ALL influenced by the money of course. But the position you and others seem to want to believe is it was money and only money for everyone and I don't think it's accurate. If that were the case Rahm would not have left. He admitted money mattered but he also was not happy with the direction of the Tour leadership. The money talks more when the group you're told to publicly defend at every tournament is keeping you in the dark about key decisions while also touting you as some shining example of what's good about the tour and bad about LIV, using you as a pawn.

Given how pathetic Monahan, the TOUR leadership, and many tour defending folks from players to media etc have looked during all of this, id say it's extremely foolish to think the entire movement is only about money (or shorts and music for DD).

And the entire overarching point is "the money was there and it made sense for my personal SITUATION, and the lack of leadership by the PGAT made the decision very easy," then it seems the issue is the PGAT. Which ISNT controlled by "the players" no matter how convenient it is to say.

Bunk Moreland said:

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JCA1 said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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Not sure. It's been 2 or 3 years. These are just a few of the names I remember being mentioned as having expressed issues privately with the tour and hearing virtually nothing back.

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So you think the reason DJ left is some vague issue you can't really recall (and may just be a rumor since he didn't say it publicly) and not the $125 million? That's really what you believe?

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I don't believe many if any of the true top players on LIV left solely for the money. They all had various reasons for leaving. Brooks likely because of his injury situation at the time. Old guys of course took the bag so LIV could buomd a bench. Other guys excited to try and build something new or be able to play internationally near or in their home countries who don't base their lives around the USA. Other guys for the equity options team play and a F1 world league formula could bring. Other guys due to grievances with the PGAT.

ALL influenced by the money of course. But the position you and others seem to want to believe is it was money and only money for everyone and I don't think it's accurate. If that were the case Rahm would not have left. He admitted money mattered but he also was not happy with the direction of the Tour leadership. The money talks more when the group you're told to publicly defend at every tournament is keeping you in the dark about key decisions while also touting you as some shining example of what's good about the tour and bad about LIV, using you as a pawn.

Given how pathetic Monahan, the TOUR leadership, and many tour defending folks from players to media etc have looked during all of this, id say it's extremely foolish to think the entire movement is only about money (or shorts and music for DD).

And the entire overarching point is "the money was there and it made sense for my personal SITUATION, and the lack of leadership by the PGAT made the decision very easy," then it seems the issue is the PGAT. Which ISNT controlled by "the players" no matter how convenient it is to say.

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I've never said it was only money. I've only brought it up because you and others continually claim the tour is responsible for why people left. Your post above says issues with the tour is why the stars left. That's why I responded the way I did. And here you are again completely unable to even remotely identify what any of these issues even purportedly are (or how it was in the Tour's power to do anything about them). I'm not saying the tour is perfect. But I do think it's probably on par with most other sports leagues (and businesses for that matter). Some subset of your employees are always going to be complaining about something. If all it takes is saying "well, it's not public but we all know a bunch of guys have issues" I'm not sure what sports league or business survives that standard. If they've done such a bad job they deserve to be fired and/or put out of business, providing specifics shouldn't be too much to ask.

I actually agree with most of the other reasons you state here. For instance, I think a big reason Cam left was he was in the States when Covid hit and got stuck here for over a year. I think he got really homesick and Norman was able to lure him away in part by promising him that LIV would make Australia a focal point.

And I'll edit to add a point about Rahm. You seem to be conflating 2 different points in time. Immediately after the framework agreement was announced, he expressed frustration about being left in the dark. Understandable and a lot of guys felt the same way. But he later cooled down and, to my knowledge, never said anything like this as a reason for leaving.

I think everyone is kinda right

A lot of guys weren't real pleased/kinda frustrated with PGA leadership and then there was an opportunity for more money.

Some guys likely left more for the money
Some likely left to make a statement
Some left for the easier schedule

I would say almost everyone isn't going to publicly say the real reason they left because they don't want to burn bridges.

Just because a guy publicy says "I left for the money" doesn't mean that's the only reason he left

And don't think guys like phil left just to prove a point....money is always a factor

A lot of guys that wanted to leave didn't because of uncertainty and a few guys that left did so cause they have exemptions into majors and that's all they care about

Hopefully we get a better product out of this soon

Aggie369 said:

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Hopefully we get a better product out of this soon

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So much this. This is all I care about now. Just make it happen. I want Scottie and Rahm and Cam and Brooks and Rory and Bryson playing against each other most weeks.

And I'll say that selfishly… I don't think a "better product" means 8-12 global tournaments on at the wee hours of the morning in the US + majors or any team component. I want individual golf, 72 holes, no music, no shotgun starts (at least on weekend). I couldn't care less if they wear shorts.

Now, replace the John Deere with a tournament in Australia or Europe or Dubai, and I'm all ears for SOME international play.

4 majors + Oceana + Dubai/ME + Europe x2 + Asia + a wild card in South America or South Africa or somewhere like that. That's 10. Add in 10 more US events and call it a day (make 4-6 of them "elevated, no cut" that are based on a qualifying formula only. Everything else is like half points and you can play in them if you want. Beef up Jorn Ferry a bit and make relegation easier. For required tournaments provide a good stipend for travel (private air travel or travel for family is on you) and a guaranteed base payout for caddies.

Not sure why that's so hard. Saudi money could easily make that work.

Yeah, the international players were the least surprising to me. I'm sure it was not as difficult to sway some of them. Brooks was pretty broken mid-2022. Nonstop injuries and really seemed to be drained and questioning himself; perfect opportunity for a big offer of financial security to have a lot of influence. And I think DJ was a fringe case of the older players; not over-the-hill yet but getting to where he could see it in the not too distant future. So again, prime chance to convince him

Bryson and Fat Pat have always marched to a different beat. They didn't surprise me either.

DannyDuberstein said:

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Yeah, the international players were the least surprising to me. I'm sure it was not as difficult to sway some of them.

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Sounds like the difference in staying with a North American PGAT (favored by some highly influential American players) versus a global tour (favored by Rory and more of the international guys) may be one of the biggest obstacles to re-unification. If the rumors are true, one of the big pushbacks is a significant contingent of American players aren't excited about a world tour that would potentially require them to travel the globe for half the year.

Agree. That's a really big impact for some guys. Maybe you play a handful fewer tournaments, but when quite a few more are overseas, some of these dudes wont have the appetite for it that others do.

It may sound like a bad idea but what about lowering the age to enter the Senior tour? There are a lot of guys in their 40s winding down who don't want the grind of the PGA Tour but still want to play competively. Don't make it an all or nothing thing but exempt them into a few events per year starting at 40 and increasing the number at 45. Give them a chance to play 3 round tournaments and bring some relevance to that tour.

Most of these guys hate playing more than 2 weeks in a row, let alone flying every where for a world tour. To everyone else around the world, its no big deal because those tours are played across multiple countries/continents and the PGA is basically just the US. I'm even less hopeful something gets worked out now. But the tour is definitely going to have to change because the private equity guys are going to want a return on this investment.

98Ag99Grad said:

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Most of these guys hate playing more than 2 weeks in a row, let alone flying every where for a world tour. To everyone else around the world, its no big deal because those tours are played across multiple countries/continents and the PGA is basically just the US. I'm even less hopeful something gets worked out now. But the tour is definitely going to have to change because the private equity guys are going to want a return on this investment.

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I have always thought the PGAT should have had a 2 event Australia swing before the Hawaii events. Maybe have the TOC as an elevated event over there. But, that ship has sailed.

I'm starting to think the DP Tour and LIV should just merge. That would give LIV guys OWGR points, solve the Ryder Cup issue for the Euros, and create a defacto "world tour". DP is always getting shat on by the PGAT so I could see this happening if nothing gets done.

98Ag99Grad said:

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I'm starting to think the DP Tour and LIV should just merge. That would give LIV guys OWGR points, solve the Ryder Cup issue for the Euros, and create a defacto "world tour". DP is always getting shat on by the PGAT so I could see this happening if nothing gets done.

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They Saudis want in North America. It's the issue hanging over the entire fiasco.

Yeah but they can only wait around so long. Speith stated the PIF isn't even needed now that the private money deal has been made.