And this is the problem with your posting. That was literally what was proposed by the Saudis and turned down by PGAT leadership. And that's why were here.DannyDuberstein said:AgLA06 said:If only the PGAT had used those billions to solidify their charities, done all the things they've done the last 2 years, and acted in the players interests instead of starting a war with a group that just wanted a developmental league in return similar to PGAT China.DannyDuberstein said:
They have been successful in getting some good players to join LIV because they were willing to spend $3 billion in spite of hardly any fans watching. Some has-beens also successfully plussed up their retirement funds. Thats the success
Than none of this would have happened.
LOL, this is such fantasy
phil being phil
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Last: 8 mo ago by 98Ag99Grad
OK so we all agree that golf is in a much worse spot now and y'all are just arguing over how we got there?
That makes sense.
That makes sense.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
I don't.agsalaska said:
OK so we all agree that golf is in a much worse spot now and y'all are just arguing over how we got there?
That makes sense.
At some point there either going to merge or one is going to fail. In either case golf overall will be much better off. The short term 2 leagues is a means to an end.
What makes you think it will be better off? Was there something broken about it that needed to be fixed?AgLA06 said:I don't.agsalaska said:
OK so we all agree that golf is in a much worse spot now and y'all are just arguing over how we got there?
That makes sense.
At some point there either going to merge or one is going to fail. In either case golf overall will be much better off. The short term 2 leagues is a means to an end.
Again just curious, I have paid very little attention to this.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
Players got more rich. Golf got worse for fans. At best we get to players richer and golf back to par with fans. I am not optimistic though. I think it will stay pretty fractured for several more years.
I guess I do not follow AgLA06s term 'much better off' That implies something major needed to be fixed.DannyDuberstein said:
Players got more rich. Golf got worse for fans. At best we get to players richer and golf back to par with fans. I am not optimistic though. I think it will stay pretty fractured for several more years.
I hear that about NCAA football too and am pessimistic at best in it's long term health.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
Exactly. So the good players are playing each other about 20 times per year counting majors? Ummm, we had that. It was called 2021 and prior. Oh, but this time it will be in shorts! With music!
agsalaska said:I guess I do not follow AgLA06s term 'much better off' That implies something major needed to be fixed.DannyDuberstein said:
Players got more rich. Golf got worse for fans. At best we get to players richer and golf back to par with fans. I am not optimistic though. I think it will stay pretty fractured for several more years.
I hear that about NCAA football too and am pessimistic at best in it's long term health.
It's not just you. His argument is virtually impossible to follow. When a star leaves for LIV's pile of cash, it wasn't the pile of cash, it was the Tour not taking care of its stars. When the rank and file complain about the new elevated tourneys, he again complains that the Tour is not taking care of its players. Even though those 2 arguments are diametrically opposed and there was no way to please both. The only constant is the Tour was at fault and the total denial of any hard choices, complexity or tradeoffs.
Danny has explained it well. LIV got a lot of guys who were already rich richer because no one had to balance the books. Not much else has been gained. And this is most evident by the Tour's dwindling numbers and LIV's total inability to attract an audience.
it has been a success for all the players no doubt. LIV guys making guaranteed money and PGAT players playing for much larger purses since LIV started......now in terms of the viewer, thats another conversation then what I was speaking to.agsalaska said:
Was it a huge success? I don't really know. I went from watching probably 20 hours of golf a month to zero in just a couple of years. Until I saw this thread I didn't even know Phil still played. I guess I thought that he retired.
Maybe that's just me. Is it? How are golf ratings right now? Attendance? General interest in pro golf?
Those are real questions because I have no idea.
Yea I just do not see what needed to be fixed so badly.
I see the arguments in baseball(my favorite sport) and they made pretty drastic changes and have greatly improved the product.
This may be a stretch for some of yall, but it sounds like a Real Madrid fan trying to explain how the soccer system is broken and only the super league can fix it even though that would quite clearly destroy 90% of soccer. Something similar is happening in college football.
I just do not see what was so wrong about the pre LIV model. Was it the shorts? OK. Wear shorts. Music? nah I don't think that's fixing something that was broken. Caddie pay? Sure I think a lot of us can see that one. But none of that is worth losing 20% of your fan base over.
I see the arguments in baseball(my favorite sport) and they made pretty drastic changes and have greatly improved the product.
This may be a stretch for some of yall, but it sounds like a Real Madrid fan trying to explain how the soccer system is broken and only the super league can fix it even though that would quite clearly destroy 90% of soccer. Something similar is happening in college football.
I just do not see what was so wrong about the pre LIV model. Was it the shorts? OK. Wear shorts. Music? nah I don't think that's fixing something that was broken. Caddie pay? Sure I think a lot of us can see that one. But none of that is worth losing 20% of your fan base over.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
I was referring to golf. As in how was this a good thing for golf. Obviously several dozen millionares got more millions. But that's short term thinking and does not translate to squat other than that.AustinCountyAg said:it has been a success for all the players no doubt. LIV guys making guaranteed money and PGAT players playing for much larger purses since LIV started......now in terms of the viewer, thats another conversation then what I was speaking to.agsalaska said:
Was it a huge success? I don't really know. I went from watching probably 20 hours of golf a month to zero in just a couple of years. Until I saw this thread I didn't even know Phil still played. I guess I thought that he retired.
Maybe that's just me. Is it? How are golf ratings right now? Attendance? General interest in pro golf?
Those are real questions because I have no idea.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
AustinCountyAg said:it has been a success for all the players no doubt. LIV guys making guaranteed money and PGAT players playing for much larger purses since LIV started......now in terms of the viewer, thats another conversation then what I was speaking to.agsalaska said:
Was it a huge success? I don't really know. I went from watching probably 20 hours of golf a month to zero in just a couple of years. Until I saw this thread I didn't even know Phil still played. I guess I thought that he retired.
Maybe that's just me. Is it? How are golf ratings right now? Attendance? General interest in pro golf?
Those are real questions because I have no idea.
I guess that's a success in a Brewster's Milllions sense.
Right. Like Paul Krugman explaining why the economy is so good right now kind of success.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
Long time lurker on this board but first-time poster. First off, DD's hate of LIV comes across as irrational to me. There clearly is/was a divide in what professional golfers thought they should be getting paid on the PGA Tour versus what those that went to LIV are getting paid. Players in other professional sports have much more guaranteed money compared to what the PGA has traditionally offered. I also think the ideas that 'Saudi' money being pumped into LIV is somehow morally unacceptable while the PGA Tour accepts all kinds of money from China and no one cares, do not align.
Professional golf might not necessarily be better as a whole right now, but a change was eventually going to happen regardless.
Professional golf might not necessarily be better as a whole right now, but a change was eventually going to happen regardless.
Take out all the political crap and the fact is the LIV golf product just sucks… The locations suck, the format sucks, minus a few players the fields suck. The tours need to find a way to bring the best golfers back together besides the majors.
agsalaska said:What makes you think it will be better off? Was there something broken about it that needed to be fixed?AgLA06 said:I don't.agsalaska said:
OK so we all agree that golf is in a much worse spot now and y'all are just arguing over how we got there?
That makes sense.
At some point there either going to merge or one is going to fail. In either case golf overall will be much better off. The short term 2 leagues is a means to an end.
Again just curious, I have paid very little attention to this.
The majority of the revenues for PGAT weren't going to the charities or the players. The first 2 reasons the PGAT was formed to support. That's a major issue for a supposed charity where the administration was soaking up percentages that would get a do not donate grade for any other charity.
They made bad decision after bad decision that cost both thr charities and the players money. Then they lied about it until LIV forced them to do the opposite.
Next Year is the Year said:
Long time lurker on this board but first-time poster. First off, DD's hate of LIV comes across as irrational to me. There clearly is/was a divide in what professional golfers thought they should be getting paid on the PGA Tour versus what those that went to LIV are getting paid. Players in other professional sports have much more guaranteed money compared to what the PGA has traditionally offered. I also think the ideas that 'Saudi' money being pumped into LIV is somehow morally unacceptable while the PGA Tour accepts all kinds of money from China and no one cares, do not align.
Professional golf might not necessarily be better as a whole right now, but a change was eventually going to happen regardless.
I don't like seeing golf fractured and therefore less entertaining as a result, which it quantifiably has become less entertaining. If that is irrational in your opinion, cool. The numbers don't lie though; far fewer fans are watching.
And nowhere have I said Saudi money is morally unacceptable. It's simply that LIV has an endless supply of it so the PGA stood no chance. It's why I think the "unhappy" stuff doesn't fly. LIV was able to moneywhip players at a level that no regular business ever would and that's why they got the name guys they have. Disagree?
Then where was it going? Networks?AgLA06 said:agsalaska said:What makes you think it will be better off? Was there something broken about it that needed to be fixed?AgLA06 said:I don't.agsalaska said:
OK so we all agree that golf is in a much worse spot now and y'all are just arguing over how we got there?
That makes sense.
At some point there either going to merge or one is going to fail. In either case golf overall will be much better off. The short term 2 leagues is a means to an end.
Again just curious, I have paid very little attention to this.
The majority of the revenues for PGAT weren't going to the charities or the players. The first 2 reasons the PGAT was formed to support. That's a major issue for a supposed charity where the administration was soaking up percentages that would get a do not donate grade for amy other charity.
They made bad decision after bad decision that cost both thr charities and the players money. Then they lied about it until LIV forced them to do the opposite.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
The players ARE the PGA. If they wanted the $$$ to flow differently, it was well within their power to change it. Again, a lot of this comes between the elite players and the rank-and-file. It's their league. It's not NFL, MLB, or the NBA. There is no ownership to deal with. They are the owners and always had the power
agsalaska said:Then where was it going? Networks?AgLA06 said:agsalaska said:What makes you think it will be better off? Was there something broken about it that needed to be fixed?AgLA06 said:I don't.agsalaska said:
OK so we all agree that golf is in a much worse spot now and y'all are just arguing over how we got there?
That makes sense.
At some point there either going to merge or one is going to fail. In either case golf overall will be much better off. The short term 2 leagues is a means to an end.
Again just curious, I have paid very little attention to this.
The majority of the revenues for PGAT weren't going to the charities or the players. The first 2 reasons the PGAT was formed to support. That's a major issue for a supposed charity where the administration was soaking up percentages that would get a do not donate grade for amy other charity.
They made bad decision after bad decision that cost both thr charities and the players money. Then they lied about it until LIV forced them to do the opposite.
I don't believe that's been answered in public. Last I looked they had taken down much of the information regarding revenue and specific charity donations / awards.
Next Year is the Year said:
Long time lurker on this board but first-time poster. First off, DD's hate of LIV comes across as irrational to me. There clearly is/was a divide in what professional golfers thought they should be getting paid on the PGA Tour versus what those that went to LIV are getting paid. Players in other professional sports have much more guaranteed money compared to what the PGA has traditionally offered. I also think the ideas that 'Saudi' money being pumped into LIV is somehow morally unacceptable while the PGA Tour accepts all kinds of money from China and no one cares, do not align.
Professional golf might not necessarily be better as a whole right now, but a change was eventually going to happen regardless.
Those are team sports where the players are employees. If you remember way back when this first all started, the rallying cry of the guys jumping to LiV is they are independent contractors, beholden to no one, who can play when and where they want.
Are there individual sports that have guaranteed contracts? Just don't see the comparison you're trying to make.
I think you should look at it more objectively. People are turning on the TV to watch all of the big name players (Scottie, Rory, JT, Speith, Day, etc) and the TV networks are making tons of money because of that. All of those players along with the others should be getting guaranteed money based on that. LIV exists now because it addressed that issue.
Players make up the majority of the PGA Board. Spieth is on it. If they want guaranteed money, they had/have the power to grant it. But that does mean overcoming (1) the historical selling point that these guys eat what they kill in this league, and (2) they need PGA players not named Spieth to agree that more money goes to Spieth
One of the things I like about LIV is that I know who is playing in each tournament. This past weekend at the Byron Nelson was a collection of "who's he" players at the end. One thing that the PGA players and media need to accept is that LIV has made the PGA players more valuable with more opportunities for success. So when a pga tour guy talks about a penalty for a LIV guy must pay to go back to the pga, I say "NO!!" The pga guys should be grateful that the LIV guys took the chance (and boatloads of money) and made the pga guys more valuable with more power. It's like when the AFL started.
Next Year is the Year said:
I think you should look at it more objectively. People are turning on the TV to watch all of the big name players (Scottie, Rory, JT, Speith, Day, etc) and the TV networks are making tons of money because of that. All of those players along with the others should be getting guaranteed money based on that. LIV exists now because it addressed that issue.
Well, you should be happy to learn that the Tour already does that to some degree with their PIP program.
But since you're interested in objectivity, how exactly are you going to parse out and put a value on how many viewers each separate player brings to the broadcast? Should Rickie make more than Wyndham Clark, despite Clark being a much better player right now, based on the Orange flat bill hat count at Bay Hill?
If you're so interested in objectivity, it seems like the most "objective" way to pay them is by earning it on the course. That's earned Scottie $20 mill with 4 months to go in the season. Seems like it's working fine to me.
I'm just thankful that Phil and other big name LIV golfers can finally make a living and not suffer financially as PGA golfers.
I thought this was about LIV. That's what I addressed.AgLA06 said:Aggie2 said:
What I don't like about LIV is the Saudis are involved. Just don't trust them. Nor do I trust Greg Norman. Beyond that it's just another professional golf league. I can see it turning out like the National Football League and the American Football League.
But you have no problem with PGAT China or the LPGAT Saudi funding.
That's the problem. You can't say Saudi bad ane give the PGAT a pass on China.Aggie2 said:I thought this was about LIV. That's what I addressed.AgLA06 said:Aggie2 said:
What I don't like about LIV is the Saudis are involved. Just don't trust them. Nor do I trust Greg Norman. Beyond that it's just another professional golf league. I can see it turning out like the National Football League and the American Football League.
But you have no problem with PGAT China or the LPGAT Saudi funding.
Players were busy focused on becoming the best golfers they could be. They trusted the PGA Tour to look out for their best interest, which is the PGA Tour's mission. Executives of the PGA Tour, a non-profit by the way, were content with their fat compensation packages - top 20 execs pulled down $57+ million, 8 made $2+ million with Monahan pulling down $18+ million per the latest form 990 - and arrogantly thought there would never be an alternative for players.DannyDuberstein said:
The players ARE the PGA. If they wanted the $$$ to flow differently, it was well within their power to change it. Again, a lot of this comes between the elite players and the rank-and-file. It's their league. It's not NFL, MLB, or the NBA. There is no ownership to deal with. They are the owners and always had the power
LIV comes along and the PGA Tour's & media's response is to bash with the "sportswashing" angle, conveniently omitting that the European & LPGA Tours have had events for years in Saudi, China, and other places known for human rights violations. LIV gets some big names, and whatta-ya-know, the PGA Tour suddenly comes up with much larger payouts via PIP and significantly increased purses, specifically for the signature events. Almost like a lot of what Phil was saying early on before LIV was actually correct.
The PGA Tour could have done all of this when LIV rumors were starting and it would have shut any alternative tour down. But they thought it wouldn't happen or would fail, so they didn't do anything until forced. Sad how it has played out for professional golf.
People can certainly argue over whether the Tour's brass has done a good job over the last few years. But I don't find the idea that an extra few million a year would have prevented guys from taking a 9-figure signing bonus. You think DJ turns down a reported $125 million signing bonus (plus whatever he earns in the tournaments) if the Tour had upped the purses a couple years earlier?TheRatt87 said:Players were busy focused on becoming the best golfers they could be. They trusted the PGA Tour to look out for their best interest, which is the PGA Tour's mission. Executives of the PGA Tour, a non-profit by the way, were content with their fat compensation packages - top 20 execs pulled down $57+ million, 8 made $2+ million with Monahan pulling down $18+ million per the latest form 990 - and arrogantly thought there would never be an alternative for players.DannyDuberstein said:
The players ARE the PGA. If they wanted the $$$ to flow differently, it was well within their power to change it. Again, a lot of this comes between the elite players and the rank-and-file. It's their league. It's not NFL, MLB, or the NBA. There is no ownership to deal with. They are the owners and always had the power
LIV comes along and the PGA Tour's & media's response is to bash with the "sportswashing" angle, conveniently omitting that the European & LPGA Tours have had events for years in Saudi, China, and other places known for human rights violations. LIV gets some big names, and whatta-ya-know, the PGA Tour suddenly comes up with much larger payouts via PIP and significantly increased purses, specifically for the signature events. Almost like a lot of what Phil was saying early on before LIV was actually correct.
The PGA Tour could have done all of this when LIV rumors were starting and it would have shut any alternative tour down. But they thought it wouldn't happen or would fail, so they didn't do anything until forced. Sad how it has played out for professional golf.
Either this is about money or its not. If it's about money, LIV wins every time.
Going back and reading between the lines. When asked about a PIF deal Cantlay has always said his responsibility is a good deal for the *entire* membership. Rory's idea is to get the top 100 from across PGA Tour and LIV and go on a world tour. There are different mouths to try to…
— Dan Rapaport (@Daniel_Rapaport) May 8, 2024
The players make up the majority of the Board. They run the PGA.
As mentioned above, there really isn't any competing with the volume of LIV money. They were willing to whatever ridiculous price it took to get players, without the handcuffs of needing some kind of return or payback or any basis in business reality.
As mentioned above, there really isn't any competing with the volume of LIV money. They were willing to whatever ridiculous price it took to get players, without the handcuffs of needing some kind of return or payback or any basis in business reality.
I'm OK with a "world tour" as long as the ones who get a gazillion dollars are the ones who are actually currently winning.
I always enjoyed golf and tennis because of the "don't perform / don't eat" aspect of it. Now there are a bunch of crybaby'$ out there with big checks in their bags telling everyone how things ought to be run. That was the genesis of my OP regarding Phil (not who is right or wrong in this whole sad affair). Phil has obviously got the Greg Norman disease now.
I always enjoyed golf and tennis because of the "don't perform / don't eat" aspect of it. Now there are a bunch of crybaby'$ out there with big checks in their bags telling everyone how things ought to be run. That was the genesis of my OP regarding Phil (not who is right or wrong in this whole sad affair). Phil has obviously got the Greg Norman disease now.
Sure they do. That's why Monahan & the other execs make nearly $60 million total annually. And why Monahan & the other execs entered into the LIV merger discussions without so much as breathing a word to Rory & the other players on the policy board. Because it's the players that run the PGA Tour.DannyDuberstein said:
The players make up the majority of the Board. They run the PGA.
You keep telling yourself that. Jon Rahm and others disagree.JCA1 said:People can certainly argue over whether the Tour's brass has done a good job over the last few years. But I don't find the idea that an extra few million a year would have prevented guys from taking a 9-figure signing bonus. You think DJ turns down a reported $125 million signing bonus (plus whatever he earns in the tournaments) if the Tour had upped the purses a couple years earlier?TheRatt87 said:Players were busy focused on becoming the best golfers they could be. They trusted the PGA Tour to look out for their best interest, which is the PGA Tour's mission. Executives of the PGA Tour, a non-profit by the way, were content with their fat compensation packages - top 20 execs pulled down $57+ million, 8 made $2+ million with Monahan pulling down $18+ million per the latest form 990 - and arrogantly thought there would never be an alternative for players.DannyDuberstein said:
The players ARE the PGA. If they wanted the $$$ to flow differently, it was well within their power to change it. Again, a lot of this comes between the elite players and the rank-and-file. It's their league. It's not NFL, MLB, or the NBA. There is no ownership to deal with. They are the owners and always had the power
LIV comes along and the PGA Tour's & media's response is to bash with the "sportswashing" angle, conveniently omitting that the European & LPGA Tours have had events for years in Saudi, China, and other places known for human rights violations. LIV gets some big names, and whatta-ya-know, the PGA Tour suddenly comes up with much larger payouts via PIP and significantly increased purses, specifically for the signature events. Almost like a lot of what Phil was saying early on before LIV was actually correct.
The PGA Tour could have done all of this when LIV rumors were starting and it would have shut any alternative tour down. But they thought it wouldn't happen or would fail, so they didn't do anything until forced. Sad how it has played out for professional golf.
Either this is about money or its not. If it's about money, LIV wins every time.
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