Like Greg and Phil are choir boys!

Genuinely appreciate the responses. It was not a loaded question, although it might have come off that way. I really enjoy following professional golf, and have felt really torn over it lately because apparently I'm supposed to pick a side. Truth is, there's things I like, and things I don't like, when it comes to LIV.
- I'm all for a conversation on more team format golf. LIV is onto something there. Like the F1 comp a lot, but don't think they've quite mastered it yet.
- On the supporting caddies, support staff, families... I'm taking a wait-and-see with that. This is still very much the recruiting phase for LIV, and it wouldn't shock me if the covering of all expenses for caddies and such will be coming to a halt soon (if it hasn't already).
- One part I can't quite rid myself of yet is the desire for prestigious wins and historical context. Nothing LIV can do about that right now. I just have too much context with the Tour and it's history/events.
- I'm back and forth on the shotgun start. Definitely can see the logic behind it, but think it also brings a lot more excitement to the players competing in a LIV tournament that it does for me. Often times, I'm all for the rub of the green when it comes to bad draws.

Again, not entirely sure where I land. Was just seeing if there was perhaps anything from a golf product standpoint I wasn't considering. If it ends up making professional golf more enjoyable to follow, then it's a net positive for me.

One issue with the shotgun starts is that it means 3 man groups. It's a significantly slower paced round and less optimal for viewers. There's a reason that the PGA goes to 2 on the weekend in the spring as soon as the days get long enough to allow it. Pro 2somes get around in about 4 hours. A 3some takes more like 5:15+. That difference is all dead time waiting on leaders to hit shots

My issue with the shotgun start is everyone finishing on different holes. At least for me, I like knowing what guys have left in terms of number of holes and what those holes are ("he's down by 2 but has a reachable par-4 and a par-5 coming up, this should be good" etc.). Unless you have the course memorized, it's really difficult to know what everyone on the leaderboard has left and is just not as fun to follow.

I disagree with the last part solely because golf is a niche sport at its core. You're not going to attract the "casual" fan with a more fun atmosphere imo.

The casual fan only cares about the majors full stop. So at that point, does the music, shotgun start, etc make that much of a difference for a die hard golf fan that is willing to tune into a random tournament in March?

Ultimately that is what is going to matter, because the "casual" golf fan is rarely tuning into anything except the majors or another event with major stakes on the line.

That's LIV's biggest issue IMO, the stakes are seemingly very low.

_lefraud_ said:

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They'll also be OWGR points up for grab. Jay and his buddies are just hypocrites.

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It's good to be the king.

Correct that golf and tennis are niche sports.

KC_Ag14 said:

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Genuinely appreciate the responses. It was not a loaded question, although it might have come off that way. I really enjoy following professional golf, and have felt really torn over it lately because apparently I'm supposed to pick a side. Truth is, there's things I like, and things I don't like, when it comes to LIV.
- I'm all for a conversation on more team format golf. LIV is onto something there. Like the F1 comp a lot, but don't think they've quite mastered it yet.
- On the supporting caddies, support staff, families... I'm taking a wait-and-see with that. This is still very much the recruiting phase for LIV, and it wouldn't shock me if the covering of all expenses for caddies and such will be coming to a halt soon (if it hasn't already).
- One part I can't quite rid myself of yet is the desire for prestigious wins and historical context. Nothing LIV can do about that right now. I just have too much context with the Tour and it's history/events.
- I'm back and forth on the shotgun start. Definitely can see the logic behind it, but think it also brings a lot more excitement to the players competing in a LIV tournament that it does for me. Often times, I'm all for the rub of the green when it comes to bad draws.

Again, not entirely sure where I land. Was just seeing if there was perhaps anything from a golf product standpoint I wasn't considering. If it ends up making professional golf more enjoyable to follow, then it's a net positive for me.

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Good post and I agree with a lot of your thoughts. I've been fully open to LIV or any competitor if they can offer something different but I'd prefer a world where the tours coexist instead of put up fences. I also think it's abundantly clear that the last 10 months or whenever the first event kicked off for LIV that they exposed a lot of warts that people like Monahan were pretending didn't exist for years. There was downright arrogance on the part of PGAT leadership. With today's news, there can be no more spin on that topic imo.

What I really like about watching LIV so far is how they frame the course in the presentation. I've mentioned it on the threads before but I feel like I can see the course much better or they give more of a feel that you're there with them. Masters and the US Am are 2 others where I often get the same sense.

I like the team concept but agree with you that it's not fully baked. If they're convinced they need to do shotgun start with the entire field in 3-somes, then they should do teams of 3 and have either round 1 or 2 be the entire team playing together. I wouldn't mind shotgun R1 mixed, all teams of 3 R2 together, 2-somes with non shotgun start on the final round to highlight individual performance on final day. Or hell, adjust and move to 4 rounds and have the team part end on Saturday after 3 shotgun start rounds and then go into Sunday fully as individuals and in pairs. Something different from the current model.

Seems you see more golf watching their broadcasts which is always good. I think they need to continue to do better finding guys on heaters and following them more consistently as they hop around a lot right now without much rhyme or reason.

As I said on the first event of the year thread...their lack of promoting/advertising on TV, sports websites, social media etc is astoundingly stupid when they've got to condition people to find the channel to watch them. Also...they've got to fix the YTTV situation and have the CW channel on there show the coverage. Not for me...but for the vast majority who flat refuse to switch apps...especially for something that will likely be casual watching anyway.

I watched some of the LIV golf telecast and wasn't impressed with it overall. Their scoreboard was cluttered and the tv analysts were over the top such as Feherty's comments. I think the PGA Tour has done a good job responding to the LIV threat and improving some areas. I agree that it would be nice for all of the golf world to coexist but that isn't going to happen soon. As for the team concept, that will be hard to do and have the average fan follow and be engaged with it.

Excited for the changes on the pga tour. It should actually improve the product. The tour pivoted and it was because of the new liv product. Now let's see what liv does to counter it bc there now is not much reason, other than cash, to go to liv. If you are top 50
In the world you are in a much better spot than pre liv

Matsui said:

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Excited for the changes on the pga tour. It should actually improve the product. The tour pivoted and it was because of the new liv product. Now let's see what liv does to counter it bc there now is not much reason, other than cash, to go to liv. If you are top 50
In the world you are in a much better spot than pre liv

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And this is why they did it. To help secure the best players. This ultimately hurts the others and makes for less drama, but I digress.

I'm not pro LIV, in fact I still enjoy the PGAT more than LIV. But I hate bullies and that's exactly what the PGAT is doing. Blackballing NETFLIX. Agents blackballing players. Sponsors, friends, etc etc.

We saw the tour with no competition. It was stale, hoarding cash etc. we need competition.

These "elevated" PGAT events will be good for viewing, better players with better ratings. The problem is the traditional tour stops that were not selected as "elevated" events will suffer as a result. With the top guys playing the same events, the other tournaments will have lesser fields, fewer fan interest, ticket sales, etc These tournaments will lose sponsors when the bigger names don't show year after year. Pros and cons I guess, but it is an improvement imo.

JCA1 said:

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My issue with the shotgun start is everyone finishing on different holes. At least for me, I like knowing what guys have left in terms of number of holes and what those holes are ("he's down by 2 but has a reachable par-4 and a par-5 coming up, this should be good" etc.). Unless you have the course memorized, it's really difficult to know what everyone on the leaderboard has left and is just not as fun to follow.

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Agreed. I think they should shotgun start the first two rounds and then traditional start the final round.

Bunk Moreland said:

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HeyAbbott said:

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Then LIV golf should have put a better product on the golf course but they can't because they suck.

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Not that simple. They could put out the best product on the course but if they're blackballed by major media the result will stay the same.

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This sounds like the argument that WNBA and women's soccer fans use.

"The only reason nobody watches the WNBA is because the media just doesn't give it the same coverage as the NBA"

… or maybe the product just isn't as good

Mateo84 said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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HeyAbbott said:

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Then LIV golf should have put a better product on the golf course but they can't because they suck.

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Not that simple. They could put out the best product on the course but if they're blackballed by major media the result will stay the same.

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This sounds like the argument that WNBA and women's soccer fans use.

"The only reason nobody watches the WNBA is because the media just doesn't give it the same coverage as the NBA"

… or maybe the product just isn't as good

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No one uses that argument. At least anyone that is taken seriously.

Mateo84 said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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HeyAbbott said:

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Then LIV golf should have put a better product on the golf course but they can't because they suck.

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Not that simple. They could put out the best product on the course but if they're blackballed by major media the result will stay the same.

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This sounds like the argument that WNBA and women's soccer fans use.

"The only reason nobody watches the WNBA is because the media just doesn't give it the same coverage as the NBA"

… or maybe the product just isn't as good

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So you think the LIV had unbiased coverage from the media and there wasn't collusion by the PGAT and partners against the LIV?

AgLA06 said:

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Mateo84 said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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HeyAbbott said:

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Then LIV golf should have put a better product on the golf course but they can't because they suck.

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Not that simple. They could put out the best product on the course but if they're blackballed by major media the result will stay the same.

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This sounds like the argument that WNBA and women's soccer fans use.

"The only reason nobody watches the WNBA is because the media just doesn't give it the same coverage as the NBA"

… or maybe the product just isn't as good

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So you think the LIV had unbiased coverage from the media and there wasn't collusion by the PGAT and partners against the LIV?

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Did you think the PGAT was going to sit on its hands and not try to stop the LIV? It's not collusion, it's two contractually joined entities protecting their interests. Aka business.

Quote:

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It's not collusion, it's two contractually joined entities protecting their interests. Aka business.

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It makes business sense for a Network titled "Golf Channel," who covers golf from multiple tours, worldwide, pro and am....to refuse to cover a golf league that features the reigning Open Champion, 2021 PGA Champion, 2020 Masters & US Open champions, 2019 PGA Champion, 2018 Masters, PGA & US Open Champion, 2017 Masters & US Open Champion, 2016 US Open & Open Champion?

Really? a network with that title that covers all that other golf wouldn't want to cover, even just with highlights, this league?

Bunk Moreland said:

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Quote:

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It's not collusion, it's two contractually joined entities protecting their interests. Aka business.

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It makes business sense for a Network titled "Golf Channel," who covers golf from multiple tours, worldwide, pro and am....to refuse to cover a golf league that features the reigning Open Champion, 2021 PGA Champion, 2020 Masters & US Open champions, 2019 PGA Champion, 2018 Masters, PGA & US Open Champion, 2017 Masters & US Open Champion, 2016 US Open & Open Champion?

Really? a network with that title that covers all that other golf wouldn't want to cover, even just with highlights, this league?

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Golf Channel is owned by NBC Universal. NBC will broadcast 32 PGA tour events this year on Golf Channel and Peacock, with 8 of those also showing rounds on regular NBC. Yes, it makes zero financial sense for NBC to promote the direct rival of one of their major partners.

CNN stands for Cable Network News and it hasn't broadcast "News" in decades

guadalupeag said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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Quote:

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It's not collusion, it's two contractually joined entities protecting their interests. Aka business.

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It makes business sense for a Network titled "Golf Channel," who covers golf from multiple tours, worldwide, pro and am....to refuse to cover a golf league that features the reigning Open Champion, 2021 PGA Champion, 2020 Masters & US Open champions, 2019 PGA Champion, 2018 Masters, PGA & US Open Champion, 2017 Masters & US Open Champion, 2016 US Open & Open Champion?

Really? a network with that title that covers all that other golf wouldn't want to cover, even just with highlights, this league?

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Golf Channel is owned by NBC Universal. NBC will broadcast 32 PGA tour events this year on Golf Channel and Peacock, with 8 of those also showing rounds on regular NBC. Yes, it makes zero financial sense for NBC to promote the direct rival of one of their major partners.

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Do you think ESPN will show B1G football highlights in the future? I'm betting they do.

Bunk Moreland said:

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guadalupeag said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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Quote:

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It's not collusion, it's two contractually joined entities protecting their interests. Aka business.

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It makes business sense for a Network titled "Golf Channel," who covers golf from multiple tours, worldwide, pro and am....to refuse to cover a golf league that features the reigning Open Champion, 2021 PGA Champion, 2020 Masters & US Open champions, 2019 PGA Champion, 2018 Masters, PGA & US Open Champion, 2017 Masters & US Open Champion, 2016 US Open & Open Champion?

Really? a network with that title that covers all that other golf wouldn't want to cover, even just with highlights, this league?

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Golf Channel is owned by NBC Universal. NBC will broadcast 32 PGA tour events this year on Golf Channel and Peacock, with 8 of those also showing rounds on regular NBC. Yes, it makes zero financial sense for NBC to promote the direct rival of one of their major partners.

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Do you think ESPN will show B1G football highlights in the future? I'm betting they do.

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The B1G is a separate conference of an overall league of which ESPN is a major partner. Promoting the B1G helps the overall league while not harming ESPN's conference partners. Not even comparable to LIV/PGA.

guadalupeag said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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guadalupeag said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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Quote:

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It's not collusion, it's two contractually joined entities protecting their interests. Aka business.

---

It makes business sense for a Network titled "Golf Channel," who covers golf from multiple tours, worldwide, pro and am....to refuse to cover a golf league that features the reigning Open Champion, 2021 PGA Champion, 2020 Masters & US Open champions, 2019 PGA Champion, 2018 Masters, PGA & US Open Champion, 2017 Masters & US Open Champion, 2016 US Open & Open Champion?

Really? a network with that title that covers all that other golf wouldn't want to cover, even just with highlights, this league?

---

Golf Channel is owned by NBC Universal. NBC will broadcast 32 PGA tour events this year on Golf Channel and Peacock, with 8 of those also showing rounds on regular NBC. Yes, it makes zero financial sense for NBC to promote the direct rival of one of their major partners.

---

Do you think ESPN will show B1G football highlights in the future? I'm betting they do.

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The B1G is a separate conference of an overall league of which ESPN is a major partner. Promoting the B1G helps the overall league while not harming ESPN's conference partners. Not even comparable to LIV/PGA.

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LIV has players who participate in tournaments that overlap with tournaments related to both NBC Universal and the PGA Tour. It's absolutely comparable.

Are only 200k people watching B1G football?

DannyDuberstein said:

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Are only 200k people watching B1G football?

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No because they get distribution by major networks. This circular logic is where the conversation started.

There's no logic at all in thinking NBC should be pimping LIV

guadalupeag said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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guadalupeag said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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Quote:

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It's not collusion, it's two contractually joined entities protecting their interests. Aka business.

---

It makes business sense for a Network titled "Golf Channel," who covers golf from multiple tours, worldwide, pro and am....to refuse to cover a golf league that features the reigning Open Champion, 2021 PGA Champion, 2020 Masters & US Open champions, 2019 PGA Champion, 2018 Masters, PGA & US Open Champion, 2017 Masters & US Open Champion, 2016 US Open & Open Champion?

Really? a network with that title that covers all that other golf wouldn't want to cover, even just with highlights, this league?

---

Golf Channel is owned by NBC Universal. NBC will broadcast 32 PGA tour events this year on Golf Channel and Peacock, with 8 of those also showing rounds on regular NBC. Yes, it makes zero financial sense for NBC to promote the direct rival of one of their major partners.

---

Do you think ESPN will show B1G football highlights in the future? I'm betting they do.

---

The B1G is a separate conference of an overall league of which ESPN is a major partner. Promoting the B1G helps the overall league while not harming ESPN's conference partners. Not even comparable to LIV/PGA.

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By this reasoning it would also help promoting LIV since their players also play on DP and other tours.

Us addicts that tune in for Euro golf on the DP tour don't need more advertising. Doubt they're worried or trying to grow viewership there much.

Showing highlights of B1G games doesn't steal market share from the SEC. Promoting LIV could absolutely steal market share from the PGA. Again, these are not comparable situations. Now if ESPN starts showing commercials for the B1G Saturday game of the week there might be an argument, but we all know that won't happen.

One thing LIV has going for it imo is the actual tournament experience for the spectator. I think the way it's set up is probably better than a PGA event for the following reasons.

1. you know that when you go to the tournament you have the chance to see all players since there is no cut
2. music on the course promotes a more fun atmosphere for the spectator imo (less hush hush and promotes that you're allowed to have a good time)
3. quicker- you dont have to get there at 7am and leave at 5pm
4. more action- weekends at a pga event can be long and drawn out if you're not able to walk the course. You can sit on one of the holes on the back 9 and it may not be until 10am or later until the first group comes around. and vice cersa, if you choose to sit at hole #1 the action is over by lunch time

Does #4 not contradict #3? I think it's nice that if a group wants to post up at one hole all day they can, knowing they'll be done in several hours, or if they want they can hang around until the last group finishes. It's up to the spectators to decide. The shotgun start decides for you.

Phil’s talking about LIV but what about the European Tour that’s been completely stitched up? Rahm has mentioned how it’s a sacrifice for him to play his home open because points are so low. International players will play home events even less than they do now and that sucks.

— Flushing It (@flushingitgolf) March 3, 2023

For further reference of what Phil is talking about: pic.twitter.com/FkRVUudXtd

— Flushing It (@flushingitgolf) March 3, 2023

Interesting conversations happening out there.

Remember. Anti-trust and collusion violations are ok as long as you have a hall of fame and pay the media to do what you say.