Didn't read the whole thread but buyers don't provide the inspection prior to listing because the seller is the one paying for it so the buyers may not trust the inspection at face value. Same for inspections from buyers. Theres an opportunity for them to make outrageous claims on a home that now a seller has to disclose that may or may not be factual and relevant. I know all the inspectors on this board are righteous but there are a holes in every field. Get your own inspection and negotiate based on the report. It's your report not the sellers.
Dramatic negotiations while active under contract and in option period
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Last: 12 days ago by aggiebq03+
I was going to suggest the same thing.SweaterVest said:
Only one real option here…
Bring dozens of copies of the inspection to the open house. Mix some in with the listing flyers, drop some around the bedrooms, bathrooms, you get the picture…
Also, show up and point out all the defects very loud so everyone walking thru can hear.
Yeah, I like that idea. I was previously going to say I would threaten to let the ultimate buyer know about this silliness after the fact, but who knows if that might open you up to a lawsuit. This is better.
Red Pear Realty said:
Ok, here is a real life example that I experienced this last summer while representing a buyer client.
First time buyer client puts a home under contract in the "starter" home category (meaning inspection costs, OM and EM costs, and closing costs are a lot more impactful to buyers in this price point than to those in the luxury segments). This home was in the $300k to $400k price range in Houston. Sellers disclosure is completely clean and left the age of the roof blank. My assumption is that unless what is stated on an SD is bad/wrong, don't believe it. We knew the HVAC system was older going in to it, but the client was willing to take that on as long as it was working properly now.
In between our initial showing and the inspection, the HVAC system goes out and we find out that it's R-22 and probably needs to be replaced as it's ~25 years old. Further, the inspector gauges that the roof is 20-25 years old, which means that it's not insurable and will need to be replaced if my client wants to get insurance for their mortgage. And finally, we find out that although the entire home has recently updated outlets, rockers, and fixtures, nothing is grounded (this is a fire hazard, and no electrician would have done this, meaning it was a DIY special). We went to the seller with an amendment that said we wanted the owner to provide a new roof, new HVAC system, and an electrical system that was properly grounded. He responded by asking for a number instead, so we asked for like $40,000, and he went ballistic, telling us how unreasonable we were being and so on. Oh, and during this time the seller magically found and produced his receipt for the last roof replacement that was like 25 years ago. The sellers agent made it clear that the seller was not going to give anything as "he had already come down during the negotiations" (this one always gets me), so we terminated. I provided the reports we had so that the seller could not hide from these to future prospective buyers like he did with us.
Fast forward about 6 weeks, the house is still for sale, and I get a call from another buyers agent. She asked me why we backed out, so I told her exactly why. I asked if the seller had provided the inspection reports and she said that she was told by the sellers agent that we backed out because we "got cold feet" and that they didn't have any reports. The sellers disclosure had not been updated in the 6 weeks since we terminated. None of that was a mistake, all of it is just plain fraud, and future buyers (likely first time homeowners) shouldn't have to pay thousands of dollars getting into a tar baby because a seller and their agent are liars. I'm going to try and treat people how I would want to be treated, and that includes future buyers.
Moral of the story:
- People will lie when money is on the line.
- If you are looking at a home that has previously been under contract, CALL THE BUYERS AGENT AND ASK WHY THEY TERMINATED.
I don't blame you at all for backing out, seller sounds like a *****. But asking for a new grounded electrical system may have been a bit over the top, in my opinion. 1st, like 90% of the stuff you plug in is only two prong, so the grounded outlet thing is mostly moot. 2nd, homes built before like 1967 (or somewhere close) are grandfathered in as long as outlets are two prong. 3rd, you can bring and ungrounded system up to code by simply installing GFCI's in your circuit and putting all three prong outlets downstream of the GFCI outlet, then labeling them as "GFCI protected" and "No ground fault". This can all be done DIY for probably $200 or less.
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Quote:
3rd, you can bring and ungrounded system up to code by simply installing GFCI's in your circuit and putting all three prong outlets downstream of the GFCI outlet, then labeling them as "GFCI protected" and "No ground fault". This can all be done DIY for probably $200 or less.
Can you show me where this is in IRC 2021?
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Quote:
2nd, homes built before like 1967 (or somewhere close) are grandfathered in as long as outlets are two prong.
Who cares, they effectively lied about it.
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1st, like 90% of the stuff you plug in is only two prong, so the grounded outlet thing is mostly moot.
Why do we use grounded outlets?
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Red Pear Realty said:Quote:
1st, like 90% of the stuff you plug in is only two prong, so the grounded outlet thing is mostly moot.
Why do we use grounded outlets?
IF an electrical device has a three prong cord, it allows the electricity to travel back to the ground, which reduces the chance of shock or fire. But most (probably at least 80%) of electronics only have a two prong cord. You can also minimize the shock and fire risk by installing a GFCI or AFCI outlets, which will trip if something is amiss and is a hell of a lot more affordable and practical than rewiring the system AND will bring the system up to code.
Red Pear Realty said:Quote:
2nd, homes built before like 1967 (or somewhere close) are grandfathered in as long as outlets are two prong.
Who cares, they effectively lied about it.
Like I said, they were a ***** and I don't blame you for backing out. That said, expecting a whole house rewrite on a 60's or earlier starter home is laughable, unless they were promoting it as completely updated.
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SlickHairandlotsofmoney said:Red Pear Realty said:Quote:
1st, like 90% of the stuff you plug in is only two prong, so the grounded outlet thing is mostly moot.
Why do we use grounded outlets?
IF an electrical device has a three prong cord, it allows the electricity to travel back to the ground, which reduces the chance of shock or fire. But most (probably at least 80%) of electronics only have a two prong cord. You can also minimize the shock and fire risk by installing a GFCI or AFCI outlets, which will trip if something is amiss and is a hell of a lot more affordable and practical than rewiring the system AND will bring the system up to code.
Can you show me where the IRC permits this?
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Not an electrician, but have had 3 masters electricians tell me the same thing. Google AI says this:
According to the International Residential Code (IRC), a GFCI protected outlet can be installed on an ungrounded circuit, but it must be clearly labeled with a sticker stating "No Equipment Ground" to indicate that it is not grounded; this allows for protection against ground faults even if the outlet itself is not grounded, though it is still considered less safe than a grounded outlet.
Now I'd argue an ungrounded GFCI is safer most of the time, as it will still work with two prong plugs, whereas ground alone doesn't do anything for you with two prong plugs. Take a look around your home and see how many two vs three prong plugs you are using. I've counted 16 two prong to 2 three prong scanning my living room, kitchen and bedroom.
According to the International Residential Code (IRC), a GFCI protected outlet can be installed on an ungrounded circuit, but it must be clearly labeled with a sticker stating "No Equipment Ground" to indicate that it is not grounded; this allows for protection against ground faults even if the outlet itself is not grounded, though it is still considered less safe than a grounded outlet.
Now I'd argue an ungrounded GFCI is safer most of the time, as it will still work with two prong plugs, whereas ground alone doesn't do anything for you with two prong plugs. Take a look around your home and see how many two vs three prong plugs you are using. I've counted 16 two prong to 2 three prong scanning my living room, kitchen and bedroom.
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Sorry man, but I'm not going to tell clients, "slick from TexAgs said he has three friends who said it's ok" and AI is often wrong. Can you reference the specific code?
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Red Pear Realty said:
Sorry man, but I'm not going to tell clients, "slick from TexAgs said he has three friends who said it's ok" and AI is often wrong. Can you reference the specific code?
As I said, I'm not an electrician. I don't have the code book, but I'm going to take the word of three licensed master electricians over the word of a salesman. I don't blame you for questioning a random stranger on TexAgs, but I suggest you look further into the codes and consult with somebody who has a deeper understanding of the specific codes.
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I'm good. My client ended up buying a great home, in great condition, and it appraised for about 15% over contract price. One of the largest percentages over contract price I've ever had.
Edit. Oh and the electric all worked. Haha
Edit. Oh and the electric all worked. Haha
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Good for you on the sale. Unfortunate for your buyers and sellers that you're ignorant enough to say "I'm good" when confronted with potential code misunderstandings.
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You're the one who keeps saying "code says" but can't produce the code that says.
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It's cute you find this funny, a real testament to your lack of professionalism. I've said 3 times now I'm not an electrician and don't have access to the IRC code book. I texted a master electrician who responded that he doesn't even have an IRC code book because everything IRC has is adopted from NEC, which is more comprehensive than IRC. Anyways, the code you are looking for is NEC 406.4(D)2
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Ok, thank you. Now, go back and read what I wrote in my first post describing the situation. We didn't ask for a complete rewire, just that they properly ground the outlets.
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"Properly grounded" would still likely require a major rewire. The workaround I've brought to your attention isn't "grounded", it just uses a GFCI to kill the circuit in the event of improper current flow.
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So you're advocating for a half-assed fix, got it. No thanks.
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Not at all. It makes the circuit much safer than ungrounded alone. And as mentioned earlier, grounded alone does nothing for anything with a two prong plug, which is the majority of electronics. GFCI still kills the circuit with two prong plugs.
I can promise you that you aren't helping your business any right now. I'd take your ball and go home if I was you.
I can promise you that you aren't helping your business any right now. I'd take your ball and go home if I was you.
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Ok slick, thank you for all of your business wisdom.
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You'd be wise to take it. Best of luck to you.
SlickHairandlotsofmoney said:
I can promise you that you aren't helping your business any right now. I'd take your ball and go home if I was you.
Of all the wrong things you posted, this may be the most wrong.
I'd ask you to be more specific, but I noticed it took you two edits to post one sentence, so I'll leave this one alone.
National Electric Code; National Fire Protection Assocation, Quincy, MA....406.4(D)(2) I think is the current location. Been in the code since about 2000 or so. Any licensed electrician can tell you that. The defacto standard in the US.....the one that states, counties and municipalities adopt as law......not some toothless IRC crap.
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Oh man. I've never seen so many tradesmen advocating for cheap fixes before. Where are y'all when I'm bidding projects? Sounds like I need to hire you.
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When you are in a hole, stop digging.
An appropriate response would be,"I didn't know that. Thanks for letting me know, as that might be really valuable knowledge for one of my future deals."
An appropriate response would be,"I didn't know that. Thanks for letting me know, as that might be really valuable knowledge for one of my future deals."
As an engineering consultant/expert witness working with insurance companies, utilities and electricians getting sued (tradesman to some I guess) I thought I would answer you question about code article section. This has been a pretty common way to upgrade older 2 wire systems and since it becomes GFCI protected once you apply this fix your are BETTER than being just grounding protected since GFCI's trip so fast at such low levels of leakage. Turns out it is a safer solution than rewiring and adding the grounding conductor at a fraction of the cost. If I was an electrician I wouldn't make nearly as much bank reconfiguring with GFCI's as rewiring. Was thinking of using Twelve or Red Pear to list our condo in CS now that our boys are moved out. Don't think I will contact your company now given what I've read here.
Can you explain the bolded part? What make's it safer? Just the fact that the GFCI's trip quickly? Wouldn't a complete rewire up to modern code be the SAFEST solution?Lone Stranger said:
As an engineering consultant/expert witness working with insurance companies, utilities and electricians getting sued (tradesman to some I guess) I thought I would answer you question about code article section. This has been a pretty common way to upgrade older 2 wire systems and since it becomes GFCI protected once you apply this fix your are BETTER than being just grounding protected since GFCI's trip so fast at such low levels of leakage. Turns out it is a safer solution than rewiring and adding the grounding conductor at a fraction of the cost. If I was an electrician I wouldn't make nearly as much bank reconfiguring with GFCI's as rewiring. Was thinking of using Twelve or Red Pear to list our condo in CS now that our boys are moved out. Don't think I will contact your company now given what I've read here.
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Yes. GFCI's get old and stop working all the time (I just had to replace one at my house) and a small percentage of plugs don't work within a month of install. I've also had two different master electricians tell me in the past that they will not take on the liability of the GFCI "fix".
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This is the most action the Real Estate board has seen since 2021!
Back then, people didn't care about "inspection reports". Crazy how 3-4 years ago buyers just wanted to outbid everyone for a home whether they had even seen it or not.
Best of luck to all parties, and everyone that took time to offer some input.
Back then, people didn't care about "inspection reports". Crazy how 3-4 years ago buyers just wanted to outbid everyone for a home whether they had even seen it or not.
Best of luck to all parties, and everyone that took time to offer some input.
So after all this debate and going so far as to request the code number, you're trying to tell us you were aware of the GFCI fix all along?
You need to stop, seriously.
I'll give you credit where due, GFCI's can fail over time, which is why it's important to test them every so often. But grounded systems aren't exempt from failure either. I've seen the flimsy ground tab damage or busted off from outlet installation, wires severed from grounding rods by landscaping crews and even grounding rods that weren't driven to an appropriate depth.
You need to stop, seriously.
I'll give you credit where due, GFCI's can fail over time, which is why it's important to test them every so often. But grounded systems aren't exempt from failure either. I've seen the flimsy ground tab damage or busted off from outlet installation, wires severed from grounding rods by landscaping crews and even grounding rods that weren't driven to an appropriate depth.
Sure....your comment was on the right track. The analysis boils down to the time/current level trip of each device you are relying on for protection to shut the power off. A grounding conductor used to trip a breaker and shut off the power making it fail in a safe manner is slower than the time/magnitude of current to trip a GFCI in every condition. So the GFCI will always trip the power off faster in any short/fault condition and make it fail in a safe manner faster than relying on the breaker trip curve even with a GOOD, SOLID, INTACT grounding path.
Convenient excuse for "I'm want to do the more expensive but not as safe fix' to lay people like you by bringing liability into the discussion. Maybe you just need better tradespeople?
A GFCI will always fail in the safe (off) position as noted by your whining about them.
How many people have any inkling or knowedge when their grounding path in a circuit has become high enough resistance or broken so that it won't trip the breaker under a short/fault condition? There isn't any indicating device to tell you is there?
A GFCI will always fail in the safe (off) position as noted by your whining about them.
How many people have any inkling or knowedge when their grounding path in a circuit has become high enough resistance or broken so that it won't trip the breaker under a short/fault condition? There isn't any indicating device to tell you is there?
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