Sure, but materials matter as do the general construction manager.

I may be completely off base, but in my few interactions with builders, the custom builder managers seem to manage fewer builds and be more knowledgeable and involved. Obviously this is a company by company, manager by manager basis, but as a trend.

Then materials, my sister bought a home in a master planned community that wasn't cheap and I'm shocked by the finishes in it. Fiberboard cabinets, the bathrooms have Vortens toilets, which have recalls, the half bath in the living space wasn't even finished out with a built in vanity, just a cheap pedestal sink.

My only experience with Jamestown is financing a couple of custom builds. Easy to work with and no complaints from the client. PIB likes to control everything start to finish on my experience.

the # of homes managed has also skyrocketed for production builders.

Pre-covid housing boom in DFW, my builder was managing 8-10 homes at a time across 2 close neighborhoods (Highland). Huntington guys were doing 2-4 at a time.

He said, about 3 months after we moved in March-21, that he was managing something like 18-20.

The booming demand, materials shortages labor shortages has created a perfect storm in some areas.

Johnny Boyziel 2 said:

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I spent 8 years of my career building homes for both "production" and "fully custom" home builders. Whether you want to believe it or not, the majority of the vendors and subcontractors are working on all levels of homes. Just to name few - site prep, erosion control, foundation, foundation engineers, plumbing, material suppliers, framers, roofers, masons, electrical, HVAC, security, drywall, landscapers, irrigation, garage doors, and inspectors. Some of the more skilled trades may be an exception, such as trim carpenters and painters, but they are rare. The most professional and skilled trim carpenter I had ever worked with was for a production builder. There is not enough "custom" work going on for many of these trades and vendors to be kept busy enough.

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There is no doubt that some of the major contractors have crews that they send on both the production contracts and also on purely custom homes......truly custom homes are rare enough that major contractors (like electrical, plumbing, roofing, slab) could not stay in business if they relied only on the continuity of completely custom.

- My BIL is a senior executive for one of the largest production homebuilders in Texas. I lived for two years across the highway in a rental house during the two years it took to build our home. My wife and/or myself visited the project at least twice a day during that time, usually three or four times a day. We basically assumed the role that an architect would perform with our builder. We spent an awful lot of time with the various contractors that would work on the home for months at a time. Here are things I would note:

- Usually our builder but sometimes his foreman was at the house every single day of construction......always for at least an hour a day.

- We would spend sometimes two months waiting for a specific crew to finish one of our builder's other projects before coming to our project. The builder would insist on specific crews from the major contractors. For the very skilled trades like stone masonry, framing, and finish carpentry the builder would consume at least 80% of the contractor's annual work load. Builder insisted we wait for these crews in order to ensure quality.

- Everything was at my cost (again, a fixed fee contract with the builder). An absolute bargain.

- Builder would do multiple walk throughs with each contractor on such things as the exact placement of light fixtures, plugs, direction of tile, etc.

- All the skilled trades contractors were sole proprietorship owners with the owner running his one and only crew.

- Framing contractor paid his three/four employees a fixed salary of $90,000 per year, lunch provided, breaks provided, eight hours a day, paid his employees even if rained out etc.

- Builder/framing contractor sent multiple, delivered loads of wood back to the supplier due to quality issues.

- Stone masons spent four continuous months on the job. For every two pallets of rock delivered, the mason would sent one pallet back to the supplier because he didn't like the color of some of the stone on the pallet.

- Builder even fired the electrical contractor whom he had a three-year dozens of units plus relationship with half way thru the project because of their lack of attention to detail.

- Builder could have easily contracted twice the projects he had in the pipeline, but folks were unwilling to get in the building que required by his major contractors and he would not compromise on using those contractors.

Even for the major contractors that had crews that worked on production homes as well......there is just a different level of quality and attention to detail when the contractor is performing based on cost versus a fixed amount for a production unit. As for the quality of the materials.....that's just a $$$ decision each step of the way as we went along....but we would get to decide that quality....from the engineered beams to the light sockets.

Yes, it was definitely at a premium compared to what I would have paid for a higher end production home in a planned community. But, after owing homes/farms in seven different states/countries over thirty years (and even custom building previously).....we knew what we wanted and what quality we demanded in a home in which we expect to spend the rest of our lives.

My biggest disappointment......went through three insurance companies and four insurance appraisals arguing with the insurance companies about the replacement cost of our home. All of them insisted the replacement cost was far more than the total we had paid just a few months previous. Finally settled on an insured amount (of course excluding personal property) that was 144% of what the home had cost me to build.

My second biggest disappointment.....you of course would never hire a highly custom barn builder to build your custom home. You should also never hire a highly custom home builder to build a highly custom barn. No end of headaches on my part ensuring a quality product on the barn from that same builder who had not also been building really nice barns for a dozen years. Most of those headaches related to timing issues for a barn vs. a custom home.....I can wait two years for a house.....I can't wait ten months for a barn while I board my horses. He and I both retrospectively regret contracting to build the barn along with the house rather than going with a barn specialist.

A two year build time is insane, no matter how custom. Waiting months for "specific crews" really made me chuckle. Classic. I'm sure it's a really nice home, though.

But, what do I know? That was my past life, and I am now an expert in electrical work. My current job has absolutely nothing to do with electrical work, but my BIL is an electrician.

Johnny Boyziel 2 said:

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A two year build time is insane, no matter how custom. Waiting months for "specific crews" really made me chuckle. Classic. I'm sure it's a really nice home, though.

But, what do I know? That was my past life, and I am now an expert in electrical work. My current job has absolutely nothing to do with electrical work, but my BIL is an electrician.

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Well, my BIL is an expert in production home building in his current life and can help you understand the difference between a production build and an actual custom build in today's environment.

Nah, I'm good. I'm fully aware of the difference. I don't need a lesson from someone who clearly has no pride in his work, and resorts to trashing his own employer.

Your earlier reference to a realtor pushing a "custom home" for a higher fee tells me all I need to know about this subject.

HarleySpoon said:

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Johnny Boyziel 2 said:

---

I spent 8 years of my career building homes for both "production" and "fully custom" home builders. Whether you want to believe it or not, the majority of the vendors and subcontractors are working on all levels of homes. Just to name few - site prep, erosion control, foundation, foundation engineers, plumbing, material suppliers, framers, roofers, masons, electrical, HVAC, security, drywall, landscapers, irrigation, garage doors, and inspectors. Some of the more skilled trades may be an exception, such as trim carpenters and painters, but they are rare. The most professional and skilled trim carpenter I had ever worked with was for a production builder. There is not enough "custom" work going on for many of these trades and vendors to be kept busy enough.

---

There is no doubt that some of the major contractors have crews that they send on both the production contracts and also on purely custom homes......truly custom homes are rare enough that major contractors (like electrical, plumbing, roofing, slab) could not stay in business if they relied only on the continuity of completely custom.

- My BIL is a senior executive for one of the largest production homebuilders in Texas. I lived for two years across the highway in a rental house during the two years it took to build our home. My wife and/or myself visited the project at least twice a day during that time, usually three or four times a day. We basically assumed the role that an architect would perform with our builder. We spent an awful lot of time with the various contractors that would work on the home for months at a time. Here are things I would note:

- Usually our builder but sometimes his foreman was at the house every single day of construction......always for at least an hour a day.

- We would spend sometimes two months waiting for a specific crew to finish one of our builder's other projects before coming to our project. The builder would insist on specific crews from the major contractors. For the very skilled trades like stone masonry, framing, and finish carpentry the builder would consume at least 80% of the contractor's annual work load. Builder insisted we wait for these crews in order to ensure quality.

- Everything was at my cost (again, a fixed fee contract with the builder). An absolute bargain.

- Builder would do multiple walk throughs with each contractor on such things as the exact placement of light fixtures, plugs, direction of tile, etc.

- All the skilled trades contractors were sole proprietorship owners with the owner running his one and only crew.

- Framing contractor paid his three/four employees a fixed salary of $90,000 per year, lunch provided, breaks provided, eight hours a day, paid his employees even if rained out etc.

- Builder/framing contractor sent multiple, delivered loads of wood back to the supplier due to quality issues.

- Stone masons spent four continuous months on the job. For every two pallets of rock delivered, the mason would sent one pallet back to the supplier because he didn't like the color of some of the stone on the pallet.

- Builder even fired the electrical contractor whom he had a three-year dozens of units plus relationship with half way thru the project because of their lack of attention to detail.

- Builder could have easily contracted twice the projects he had in the pipeline, but folks were unwilling to get in the building que required by his major contractors and he would not compromise on using those contractors.

Even for the major contractors that had crews that worked on production homes as well......there is just a different level of quality and attention to detail when the contractor is performing based on cost versus a fixed amount for a production unit. As for the quality of the materials.....that's just a $$$ decision each step of the way as we went along....but we would get to decide that quality....from the engineered beams to the light sockets.

Yes, it was definitely at a premium compared to what I would have paid for a higher end production home in a planned community. But, after owing homes/farms in seven different states/countries over thirty years (and even custom building previously).....we knew what we wanted and what quality we demanded in a home in which we expect to spend the rest of our lives.

My biggest disappointment......went through three insurance companies and four insurance appraisals arguing with the insurance companies about the replacement cost of our home. All of them insisted the replacement cost was far more than the total we had paid just a few months previous. Finally settled on an insured amount (of course excluding personal property) that was 144% of what the home had cost me to build.

My second biggest disappointment.....you of course would never hire a highly custom barn builder to build your custom home. You should also never hire a highly custom home builder to build a highly custom barn. No end of headaches on my part ensuring a quality product on the barn from that same builder who had not also been building really nice barns for a dozen years. Most of those headaches related to timing issues for a barn vs. a custom home.....I can wait two years for a house.....I can't wait ten months for a barn while I board my horses. He and I both retrospectively regret contracting to build the barn along with the house rather than going with a barn specialist.

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Sounds like a horrible, disorganized builder who is capable of selling a ketchup popsicle to an old lady in white gloves. Yikes. Good on him for putting clients through that and somehow making them happy at end.

Sounds like the guy who runs providential homes https://breathlesshomes.com/. That guy makes a beautiful home that is so high quality and hires excellent people. He puts a high emphasis on his framing crew as well. His lady who worked at his model homes is so kind. When I was in residency making less than 50k a year, my wife and I would pull up in our ten year old car and go see his houses and she'd just be so kind and show us the house fully without rushing or judging us.

We ended up buying instead of building due to cost issues but if I had the coin, I'd use him hands down.

May be worth shooting Jamie (red pear) a note. He helped us with our purchase in Oak Forest and lives in the neighborhood. Probably has several clients who have bought from both. I've walked through several of both and probably prefer Jamestown