Why do ya'll keep requiring home owners to raise water heaters 18" if they are installed in the garage or adjacent room?


It isn't required by code or manufacture specs for any WH made since 2003. It's a waste of money for the seller's having to fix something that isn't broken, and also a waste for the buyers to have to pay re-inspection fees to appraisers. It also delays closings while we wait on repairs that aren't needed.

Appraiser is only following orders from VA and FHA.

Inspectors are noting current city building ordinances/code.

And by the way, all the bellyaching about appraisers requiring a re-inspection as if we do it for the fees, know this - the fees are not high enough to generate a profit, especially when we have other full fee assignments pressing. It is also a pain to re-schedule and get access. We do it because we have to.

Shooter McGavin said:

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Appraiser is only following orders from VA and FHA.

Inspectors are noting current city building ordinances/code.

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Where in the orders from the VA/FHA does it say the appraiser can make up their own code?

They aren't code inspectors, so they are claiming it is a safety issue. The National Fuel Gas Code, International Builders Code, International Plumbers Code, & Manufacturers Specs for Water Heaters all state that the WH does not need to be elevated if it is Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant(FVIR.) As of July 1st, 2003, every WH built for sale in the US is required to be FVIR.

I think I would trust all of those codes and installation specs with my safety, before the opinion of an appraiser that is not licensed or qualified to call code violations.




Inspectors is pretty much the same argument. They call everything to CYA which is understandable.

This is from the TREC Standards of Practices
(VIII) burners, burner ignition devices or heating elements, switches, or thermostats that are not a minimum of 18 inches above the lowest garage floor elevation, unless the unit is listed for garage floor installation;

That is some tricky wording from TREC. No water heaters are "listed for garage floor installation." Every single WH made in the last 15 years is listed as Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant(FVIR) which in turn means they are not required to be elevated. and can be installed on the ground.

Go read the HUD manual 4000.1

Then come back here and tell us what it says.

Shooter McGavin said:

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Go read the HUD manual 4000.1

Then come back here and tell us what it says.

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I was curious why the disconnect so I pulled up HUD manual 4000.1. The only time it references water heaters:
The Appraiser must examine the water heater to ensure that it has a temperature and pressure-relief valve with piping to safely divert escaping steam or hot water.

Shooter McGavin said:

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Go read the HUD manual 4000.1

Then come back here and tell us what it says.

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This is all I got. It doesn't really tell us anything about raising WH 18"



g. Mechanical Components and Utilities (09/14/15)


Effective for case numbers assigned on or after September 14, 2015
The Appraiser must notify the Mortgagee if mechanical systems do not appear:

• to have reasonable future utility, durability, and economy;
• to be safe to operate;
• to be protected from destructive elements; or
• to have adequate capacity.

The Appraiser must observe the physical condition of the plumbing, heating and electrical systems. The Appraiser must operate the applicable systems and observe their performance. If the systems appear to be damaged or do not appear to function properly, the Appraiser must condition the appraisal for repair or further inspection.
If the Property is vacant, the Appraiser must note in the report whether the utilities were on or off at the time of the appraisal.
If the utilities are not on at the time of observation and the systems could not be operated, the Appraiser must:
1. render the appraisal as subject to re-observation;
2. condition the appraisal upon further observation to determine if the systems are in proper working order once the utilities are restored; and
3. complete the appraisal under the extraordinary assumption that utilities and mechanical systems, and appliances are in working order.
The Appraiser must note that the re-observation may result in additional repair requirements once all the utilities are on and fully functional.
If systems could not be operated due to weather conditions, the Appraiser must clearly note this in the report. The Appraiser should not operate the systems if doing so may damage equipment or when outside temperatures will not allow the system to operate.
Electrical, plumbing, or heating/cooling certifications may be required when the Appraiser cannot determine if one or all of these systems are working properly.

Quote:

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iii. Plumbing System
The Appraiser must notify the Mortgagee of the deficiency of MPR or MPS if the plumbing system does not function to supply water pressure, flow and waste removal.
The Appraiser must flush the toilets and operate a sample of faucets to observe water pressure and flow, to determine that the plumbing system is intact, that it does not emit foul odors, that faucets function appropriately, that both cold and hot water run, and that there are no readily observable evidence of leaks or structural damage under fixtures.
The Appraiser must examine the water heater to ensure that it has a temperature and pressure-relief valve with piping to safely divert escaping steam or hot water.

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Same here

Well, there you go

Required by the TREC inspection SoP as well.

Absolute said:

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Required by the TREC inspection SoP as well.

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This quote below is from my earlier post. I've talked to an inspector that helped write the SOP and he said it's a "gray area." Since they are listed as FVIR and doesn't specifically word for word state that it is for garage floor installation, they call it in their reports. If you challenge the appraiser, they aren't certified inspectors so they ask for the inspection report which list this as a deficiency. Thus they require it to be elevated because the inspector called it.

It's just mindboggling that neither party has figured out that the code changed 15 years ago. It states it very clearly that FVIR waters heaters are not required to be elevated. Every single WH made since 2003 is required by law to be FVIR.




This is from the TREC Standards of Practices
(VIII) burners, burner ignition devices or heating elements, switches, or thermostats that are not a minimum of 18 inches above the lowest garage floor elevation, unless the unit is listed for garage floor installation;

That is some tricky wording from TREC. No water heaters are "listed for garage floor installation." Every single WH made in the last 15 years is listed as Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant(FVIR) which in turn means they are not required to be elevated. and can be installed on the ground.

Not sure why you want to have the battle. But why are cities requiring it in New Construction? The seal chamber on the new tanks could fail.

Neither appraisers nor inspectors are code inspectors. These things are inspected to typical and/or safety standards. Not necessarily pure code. If you don't want to raise the unit in an old house, say no and move on. The issue may be "Grey" in the standards in your opinion and the opinion of your friend. But I guarentee you that if the inspector was being investigated by TREC for a complaint they would hold the lack of that callout against him in the form of a heavy fine.

Codes and standards are not black and white or perfect. Why do tankless water heaters have to have tpr? They are not pressure vessels and won't explode like a tank. But they are still required. Why do some cities require a safety bullard to protect the water heater In the garage and others don't? It is a good idea. Why do some cities require the exhaust flue be secured to the transition and most don't. You would probably be amazed by how many dislodged flues I find. It is a legitimate safety concern.

Inspectors, again, are not pure code checkers. We look at a combo code, normal / typical, and potential or worst case safety concerns.

Diggity said:

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PhatMack19 said:

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Asking questions to appraisers and inspectors reminds me a lot of when my kids ask why they have to do something. When I don't have a good reason, the answer is because I said so and I'm the boss.

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I led you to the answer. Appraisers don't require it. If they do, you have the ammunition to call them out.

You're welcome.

Shooter McGavin said:

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Diggity said:

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PhatMack19 said:

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Asking questions to appraisers and inspectors reminds me a lot of when my kids ask why they have to do something. When I don't have a good reason, the answer is because I said so and I'm the boss.

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I led you to the answer. Appraisers don't require it. If they do, you have the ammunition to call them out.

You're welcome.

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He did require it. I called him out. He asked for the inspection report which mentioned it and said I had to raise it or not close on the house. I asked inspector why he called it when it's not code. He wrote the SOP and said it's a gray area, so he calls things to cover his ass.

The appraiser wouldn't even discuss it, or read my email that clearly listed all of the codes because he's above me I guess. Raise it or no loan because he's the boss.

Fair enough. However, what you fail to understand is that TREC standards ARE often grey. There is a lot of stuff that is "call it deficient if it is wrong" without ever defining what wrong is. Of course there are codes.but home inspectors are not code inspectors. Until the water heater specifically says it can be installed on the ground or TREC changes the standard to specifically exclude FVIR fromt he requirement. I will continue to call it out. I have seen enough things fail over the years that I would not entirely trust the FVIR construction not to fail at some point.

I would question why, if as you say, EVERYONE says it does not have to be raised but inspectors and appraisers, EVERY city I inspect in currently appears to require it new construction. They are always raised. Hell, even Electric water heaters are raised in new construction.

Your mistake was giving the report to the appraiser. You should have said no at that point. The report was not done for him. Or you should have had a licensed plumber come out and state that you don't have to raise the water heater. I suspect most of them probably don't want to state that either.

Honestly, I am offended by the constant CYA comments. There IS some CYA in every profession. There is more CYA language in my report than I would like, blame the legal system that sues for anything and everything whether it makes sense or not. However, I DO NOT walk around on an inspection thinking about how to cover my ass. I look for things that I believe maybe a concern for my clients. Things that may cost them money or their lives. You would be shocked how many truly dangerous things I find. I also call out things that are in the TREC standards or my understanding of the standards as a generalist. I promise you the home inspector was not thinking about how to make your life miserable, he was just trying to do his job. Let it go.

Amen to what Kevin just said. I deal with inspectors every day. Most of them are just trying to do a good job for their client. Are there bad ones? Yes, of course. There are terrible Realtors out there too, but I can promise you I don't want to be lumped in with them.

I'm starting to think it was a home inspector/appraiser that sued McDonald's after burning themselves with their coffee because it wasn't written on the cup that it was HOT. It's pretty much common sense that coffee is hot and not to spill it on yourself. I guess until TREC catches up with 15 yr old standards, then we will keep having to waste money and time.

I raise WH in new construction if it is in the garage. From what I have been explained by my city inspector, it needs to be raised if a car can run into it. Adjacent rooms do not need to be raised. Every city can set their own code.

I didn't give the appraiser the inspection, the buyers agent did. It was my listing of a recently widowed woman, that I know well, that doesn't have much more than her home. She paid a plumber less than a year ago to install a WH, which was done to code. I told her the appraiser required it to be raised, she called and the plumber defended his work. She asked me why the appraiser would require that if its not code. How should I answer that question?

Most of the time I just tell the people to blow the few hundred bucks to get it done and move on. This lady doesn't have money to blow and getting any work done around here since Harvey is ridiculous. I bought the materials and raised the WH myself(so now I'm probably liable which is neat.) So now I'm out ~$150 in materials and a few hours of time. Some people on here claim we make $5k an hour, so I figure this repair cost me well over $10 grand. I am just trying to figure out why.....

PhatMack19 said:

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I'm starting to think it was a home inspector/appraiser that sued McDonald's after burning themselves with their coffee because it wasn't written on the cup that it was HOT. It's pretty much common sense that coffee is hot and not to spill it on yourself. I guess until TREC catches up with 15 yr old standards, then we will keep having to waste money and time.

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Really dude?

You sound kind of whiny. You want me to pull back the curtains and tell you what appraisers think? OK

We want to give an opinion of value. That's all we want to do. We don't want to be the water heater police. We don't want to deal with whiny Realtors and builders that complain about EVERY LITTLE EFFING requirement.

You saw the 4000.1. We have to test appliances, make a complete visual inspection of the attic, get down in the crawl space in houses with pier & beam foundation and inspect the piers and check depth, and on and on.

We keep getting added responsibilities, for little to no extra fee. The liability for appraisers is insane.

I didn't get in the appraisal game to be a property inspector, interior decorator critic, environmental inspector, surveyor, demographer yet we keep getting more and more requirements.

And amazingly, after we write these 40 page reports we still get second guessed by Realtors, builders, loan officers, underwriters, processors, review appraisers, Collateral Underwriter algorithms, neighbors, buyers and sellers. Some get so pissed that they want to sue. Over a $400-500 report.

You got hosed by an one appraiser? Unfortunate. But to come on social media and throw an entire industry under the bus because you had to fulfill a requirement is being a *****.

Shooter McGavin said:

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PhatMack19 said:

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I'm starting to think it was a home inspector/appraiser that sued McDonald's after burning themselves with their coffee because it wasn't written on the cup that it was HOT. It's pretty much common sense that coffee is hot and not to spill it on yourself. I guess until TREC catches up with 15 yr old standards, then we will keep having to waste money and time.

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Really dude?

You sound kind of whiny. You want me to pull back the curtains and tell you what appraisers think? OK

We want to give an opinion of value. That's all we want to do. We don't want to be the water heater police. We don't want to deal with whiny Realtors and builders that complain about EVERY LITTLE EFFING requirement.

You saw the 4000.1. We have to test appliances, make a complete visual inspection of the attic, get down in the crawl space in houses with pier & beam foundation and inspect the piers and check depth, and on and on.

We keep getting added responsibilities, for little to no extra fee. The liability for appraisers is insane.

I didn't get in the appraisal game to be a property inspector, interior decorator critic, environmental inspector, surveyor, demographer yet we keep getting more and more requirements.

And amazingly, after we write these 40 page reports we still get second guessed by Realtors, builders, loan officers, underwriters, processors, review appraisers, Collateral Underwriter algorithms, neighbors, buyers and sellers. Some get so pissed that they want to sue. Over a $400-500 report.

You got hosed by an one appraiser? Unfortunate. But to come on social media and throw an entire industry under the bus because you had to fulfill a requirement is being a *****.

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Here here.

It has become so bad that many of the appraisers I know just flat out wont do an FHA job anymore. I'd love to show you the list of things we have to do/correct on these reports because they are flat out insane.

I can understand the frustration of some buyers and seller's, but in these cases, and as demonstrated here, **** often runs downhill and appraisers and inspectors are often at the bottom of that hill.

Most of the ticky-tack things that get blamed on appraisers are often the result of a directive of an underwriter. Those people are the wet-blankets of the mortgage/real estate process.

Shooter McGavin said:

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PhatMack19 said:

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I'm starting to think it was a home inspector/appraiser that sued McDonald's after burning themselves with their coffee because it wasn't written on the cup that it was HOT. It's pretty much common sense that coffee is hot and not to spill it on yourself. I guess until TREC catches up with 15 yr old standards, then we will keep having to waste money and time.

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Really dude?

You sound kind of whiny. You want me to pull back the curtains and tell you what appraisers think? OK

We want to give an opinion of value. That's all we want to do. We don't want to be the water heater police. We don't want to deal with whiny Realtors and builders that complain about EVERY LITTLE EFFING requirement.

You saw the 4000.1. We have to test appliances, make a complete visual inspection of the attic, get down in the crawl space in houses with pier & beam foundation and inspect the piers and check depth, and on and on.

We keep getting added responsibilities, for little to no extra fee. The liability for appraisers is insane.

I didn't get in the appraisal game to be a property inspector, interior decorator critic, environmental inspector, surveyor, demographer yet we keep getting more and more requirements.

And amazingly, after we write these 40 page reports we still get second guessed by Realtors, builders, loan officers, underwriters, processors, review appraisers, Collateral Underwriter algorithms, neighbors, buyers and sellers. Some get so pissed that they want to sue. Over a $400-500 report.

You got hosed by an one appraiser? Unfortunate. But to come on social media and throw an entire industry under the bus because you had to fulfill a requirement is being a *****.

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So here is my question. I feel I've had a really really really crappy appraisal. Came in way low. Our team has a bunch of reasons why but long story short, the guy spent 11 minutes at my house doing the appraisal. I personally think he was extremely lazy and didn't do his job. After seeing your note above, I honestly can't believe there is any way to do an appraisal on a 4/3, 2500 sq ft house in 11 minutes.

Quote:

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So here is my question. I feel I've had a really really really crappy appraisal. Came in way low. Our team has a bunch of reasons why but long story short, the guy spent 11 minutes at my house doing the appraisal. I personally think he was extremely lazy and didn't do his job. After seeing your note above, I honestly can't believe there is any way to do an appraisal on a 4/3, 2500 sq ft house in 11 minutes.

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I'll tell you a fairy tale about my house. I live in CS just south of campus and purchased a 1960's house in immaculate original condition.

$50,000 in renovations and 2 years later I refinanced. Guess what? My appraisal with all the upgrades was the same as it was 2 year prior.

Yes, I was pissed. Yes, it mess up my refi. Could I change it? No.

Move on.

I have no problem moving on, I already have.

Still waiting to hear how many of you appraisers spend less than 15 minutes onsite doing an appraisal.

What is the average amount of time spend onsite?

Appraiser is here right now. I will tell you how long he is onsite

Edit 45 mins.

Insert disgonbgud gif here

A single story house your size can easily be done in 10-15 minutes.

Remember, pictures are being taken for the report that the appraiser can refer back to.

Shooter -

In your post above you reference all these requirements that keep getting added to you and how you didn't get in this industry to be an inspector, etc. however they keep adding all these responsibilities.

If this is the case, this is why I question any appraisal taking 10 minutes.

I think a lot of you appraisers are taking up for your industry which I have no problem with. I don't dislike your industry and I believe its very important.

What I do dislike is being able to provide comps, measurements, and several other pieces of data to show that our appraiser was just lazy and didn't do his job, appealing with all this data and him waiting the full 48 hours just to say, I'm not changing anything. I don't appreciate some guy showing up in flip fops, tshirt, shorts, stroll around my house for about 10 minutes and leave. Thanks to my cameras, I can assure you this guy did NOTHING but stroll around with his camera. I saw no measurements taken, no laser being used, etc. There are bad eggs in every industry and I felt like I got one.

I get it and I'm not here to bash appraisers, I'm here to discuss the issue and by filing a complaint to the appraisal board, I hope I can wake this guy up to actually do his job whether consequences are bestowed upon him or not.