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Trump confirms plan for $15T bitcoin strategic reserve

6,832 Views | 79 Replies | Last: 13 days ago by Pacifico
Kansas Kid
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Monywolf said:

You don't think monetary inflation has been a problem? Why do you think bitcoin is even a thing?

I would prefer my government buy and hold the hardest asset known to man.
And please tell me how this reserve is going to solve inflation? Don't forget we have a gold reserve which has had no impact on inflation? Also, how are we going to buy this without leading to more inflation/debt?

Remember this is intended as a reserve and not to make our currency redeemable for Bitcoin like the gold standard days.
Kansas Kid
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TxAG#2011 said:

chris1515 said:

How would this not be a gift of an exit strategy given to all the criminals holding their illicitly gained bitcoin?

Right now they can slowly bleed out their holdings with small sales. If they dump too much, the price might crater. But a whale of a buyer like the US govt to come along trying to build a reserve would be able to absorb massive amounts of sales.

This would be a horrible idea if the US actually purchased bitcoin to go into such a reserve.


Bitcoin does over 10 figures worth of volume daily I don't think those criminals are gonna make much of a dent lol
You are confusing rapid trading between traders vs large buy and hold. The first is what most of the volume is and leads to small price fluctuations.

The recent large jump has been caused by there being a large increase in buy and hold from the new ETFs. If someone like the Winklevoss twins tried to unload all of their stash in one day, the price would collapse like other similar markets.
Monywolf
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Bitcoin is inflation resistant by code. Do your own research if you want to know why its the hardest asset.
TxAG#2011
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Kansas Kid said:

TxAG#2011 said:

chris1515 said:

How would this not be a gift of an exit strategy given to all the criminals holding their illicitly gained bitcoin?

Right now they can slowly bleed out their holdings with small sales. If they dump too much, the price might crater. But a whale of a buyer like the US govt to come along trying to build a reserve would be able to absorb massive amounts of sales.

This would be a horrible idea if the US actually purchased bitcoin to go into such a reserve.


Bitcoin does over 10 figures worth of volume daily I don't think those criminals are gonna make much of a dent lol
You are confusing rapid trading between traders vs large buy and hold. The first is what most of the volume is and leads to small price fluctuations.

The recent large jump has been caused by there being a large increase in buy and hold from the new ETFs. If someone like the Winklevoss twins tried to unload all of their stash in one day, the price would collapse like other similar markets.


Collapse? No it wouldn't. Maybe 7 years ago. Bitcoin absorbs 9 figure sells virtually every hour. Leverage traders hit it every minute.
LatinAggie1997
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AG
TxAG#2011 said:

Kansas Kid said:

TxAG#2011 said:

chris1515 said:

How would this not be a gift of an exit strategy given to all the criminals holding their illicitly gained bitcoin?

Right now they can slowly bleed out their holdings with small sales. If they dump too much, the price might crater. But a whale of a buyer like the US govt to come along trying to build a reserve would be able to absorb massive amounts of sales.

This would be a horrible idea if the US actually purchased bitcoin to go into such a reserve.


Bitcoin does over 10 figures worth of volume daily I don't think those criminals are gonna make much of a dent lol
You are confusing rapid trading between traders vs large buy and hold. The first is what most of the volume is and leads to small price fluctuations.

The recent large jump has been caused by there being a large increase in buy and hold from the new ETFs. If someone like the Winklevoss twins tried to unload all of their stash in one day, the price would collapse like other similar markets.


Collapse? No it wouldn't. Maybe 7 years ago. Bitcoin absorbs 9 figure sells virtually every hour. Leverage traders hit it every minute.


Agreed.
Bitcoin's recently dropped $1.57 billion to under $97k to liquidate longs. Today we are over $104k.
LatinAggie1997
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AG
The Gov. can buy BTC
@$100k & it'll go to $200k
@$200k & it'll go to #400k
@$400k & it'll go to $800k
@$800k & it'll go to $1 mill.

The rest of the world will follow suit, especially if we sell off some gold. Why perpetuate fiat that loses buying power against inflation. We can make the dollar stronger as the world's reserve currency with a BTC reserve.
themissinglink
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AG
Its Texas Aggies, dammit said:

Luke Gromen argues beginning at ~1:55 that the bitcoin strategic reserve is being driven by the national security apparatus to address negative consequences of the 50-year fiat experiment. He says these include political instability due to increasing wealth inequality and an inability to manufacture war materiel due to excessive offshoring of manufacturing capacity. Interesting.


I listened to about 15 minutes of it at the point you reference and couldn't take it anymore. He's got bits that sounds smart at surface level because his interviewer isn't smart enough to push back with the right questions. It's a deficit hawk and protectionist using similar language as the gold bugs but with a different asset saying "but this asset is better".

He seems to place blame of the perceived problems (and ignore any benefits) of globalization entirely on fiat currency. He doesn't understand how markets and supply/demand actually work in allocating scarcity in the global economy. Currency is just a unit of exchange.

We buy weapons supplies from other countries because it would consume more resources to do it domestically. We could do it here, we'd just be poorer if we did. Same with a number of other industries we've offshored. We can't "compete" with China largely because our labor and manufacturing capabilities are going to higher/better uses of those precious resources.

Income inequality has gotten larger because improved technology and a more global market allows the best products/services/people to reach more people.

I can't seem to fully understand his criticism of the bond market and how it's dictating our national defense. He praises price controls and rationing as a way to control inflation during WWII.

How is spending $15T on a Bitcoin reserve going to help solve all of this? His argument seems to be that the current system doesn't work so we need to "refinance" the current debt using bitcoin, reshore everything and implement austerity measures. So we'll all be poorer, but at least we got rid of the fiat currency.

I think BTC and more specifically blockchain is interesting, but after 15 years of hype about how it will transform payment methods and the benefits of web3, it has yet to actually find legitimate real world uses beyond drugs, arms dealers and pump-and-dump schemes.
Monywolf
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themissinglink said:

Its Texas Aggies, dammit said:

Luke Gromen argues beginning at ~1:55 that the bitcoin strategic reserve is being driven by the national security apparatus to address negative consequences of the 50-year fiat experiment. He says these include political instability due to increasing wealth inequality and an inability to manufacture war materiel due to excessive offshoring of manufacturing capacity. Interesting.


I listened to about 15 minutes of it at the point you reference and couldn't take it anymore. He's got bits that sounds smart at surface level because his interviewer isn't smart enough to push back with the right questions. It's a deficit hawk and protectionist using similar language as the gold bugs but with a different asset saying "but this asset is better".

He seems to place blame of the perceived problems (and ignore any benefits) of globalization entirely on fiat currency. He doesn't understand how markets and supply/demand actually work in allocating scarcity in the global economy. Currency is just a unit of exchange.

We buy weapons supplies from other countries because it would consume more resources to do it domestically. We could do it here, we'd just be poorer if we did. Same with a number of other industries we've offshored. We can't "compete" with China largely because our labor and manufacturing capabilities are going to higher/better uses of those precious resources.

Income inequality has gotten larger because improved technology and a more global market allows the best products/services/people to reach more people.

I can't seem to fully understand his criticism of the bond market and how it's dictating our national defense. He praises price controls and rationing as a way to control inflation during WWII.

How is spending $15T on a Bitcoin reserve going to help solve all of this? His argument seems to be that the current system doesn't work so we need to "refinance" the current debt using bitcoin, reshore everything and implement austerity measures. So we'll all be poorer, but at least we got rid of the fiat currency.

I think BTC and more specifically blockchain is interesting, but after 15 years of hype about how it will transform payment methods and the benefits of web3, it has yet to actually find legitimate real world uses beyond drugs, arms dealers and pump-and-dump schemes.
It doesn't have to be a payment system. Store of value over time works quite well.

And the US dollar has been used way more for drugs, arms, and pump and dump schemes.
LatinAggie1997
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AG
That's myopic.

Cardano's Iagon is close to finalizing at least one, maybe 2 deals, with F100 companies (decentralized cloud storage and compute)

Cardano's WMTX is bringing internet and cellular service to areas previously unconnected. They are also going to launch a mobile service to compete woth Verizon & AT&T.

Cardano is in talk with states about voting on blockchain. The states actually reached out.

Cardano's Gero Dashboard is working on bridging web2 to web3 via their Dashboard. Onboarding fiat, buying, selling, exchanging, and storage. Imagine Coinbase integrated into a decentralized wallet, making payments, cash back, and cross-chain etc. (One stop shop)

Cardano's Nuvola is running nodes for multiple Cardano projects so that they can focus on their more important tasks. They are cross-chain. They are also launching a rewards selling/trading platform. Unused flight miles, CC rewards, etc. Sell them on their app.


Forgot about Cardano/Midnight -

themissinglink
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AG
LatinAggie1997 said:

That's myopic.

Cardano's Iagon is close to finalizing at least one, maybe 2 deals, with F100 companies (decentralized cloud storage and compute)

Cardano's WMTX is bringing internet and cellular service to areas previously unconnected. They are also going to launch a mobile service to compete woth Verizon & AT&T.

Cardano is in talk with states about voting on blockchain. The states actually reached out.

Cardano's Gero Dashboard is working on bridging web2 to web3 via their Dashboard. Onboarding fiat, buying, selling, exchanging, and storage. Imagine Coinbase integrated into a decentralized wallet, making payments, cash back, and cross-chain etc. (One stop shop)

Cardano's Nuvola is running nodes for multiple Cardano projects so that they can focus on their more important tasks. They are cross-chain. They are also launching a rewards selling/trading platform. Unused flight miles, CC rewards, etc. Sell them on their app.
That's great. Cardano is the future then. Why are we going to be spending $15T buying bitcoin?
jamey
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AG
So cardano is money and bitcoin is gold

Do I have it right
Monywolf
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Study
LatinAggie1997
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AG
One is Web3 for running governments and enterprise. A modern internet, MS Windows, Netgear Nighthawk, etc., while BTC is a store of value.
YouBet
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AG
Lord. Crypto has many different use cases depending on which one you are talking about.

Some of yall need to just spend some time learning instead of just **** posting about a topic you don't understand.
Monywolf
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YouBet said:

Lord. Crypto has many different use cases depending on which one you are talking about.

Some of yall need to just spend some time learning instead of just **** posting about a topic you don't understand.
It's the people who have zero understanding and no interest in learning.
themissinglink
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AG
YouBet said:

Lord. Crypto has many different use cases depending on which one you are talking about.

Some of yall need to just spend some time learning instead of just **** posting about a topic you don't understand.
Certainly understand blockchain has a number of theoretical use cases and they will soon be rolled out… so why again do we need to spend 3x the size of the federal budget buying BTC? To completely deflate our currency to create a reserve currency, so that other countries will compete deflate their currency and move to the reserve currency?
YouBet
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AG
themissinglink said:

YouBet said:

Lord. Crypto has many different use cases depending on which one you are talking about.

Some of yall need to just spend some time learning instead of just **** posting about a topic you don't understand.
Certainly understand blockchain has a number of theoretical use cases and they will soon be rolled out… so why again do we need to spend 3x the size of the federal budget buying BTC? To completely deflate our currency to create a reserve currency, so that other countries will compete deflate their currency and move to the reserve currency?


I'm not necessarily advocating for this. I also admittedly missed the fact that the proposal was for $15T. I missed the T. Skimmed over that thinking it was a B.

So, yes, doing that right now would have some pretty bad impacts. My point on others needing to educate themselves on crypto stands.
Kansas Kid
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I would love for the advocates of this policy to educate me on how a reserve that is 20x the size of our gold reserve and about 5x the entire crypto market today is going to 1) solve inflation, our debt problem, or any other national crisis, 2) how do you create this reserve without causing a massive spike in crypto currency values, 3) how will this be paid for that doesn't explode our debt and /or the USDs in circulation and 4) if we need a store of value of 15T, why not do some or most it in gold and silver which have been stores of value for 1000s of years and are accepted by virtually every country or counterparty in the world. (It also works if the electric grid is destroyed by EMPs.)

I don't need to hear how Bitcoin is a good investment for individuals, I am already there and have some.
LatinAggie1997
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AG
Kansas Kid said:

I would love for the advocates of this policy to educate me on how a reserve that is 20x the size of our gold reserve and about 5x the entire crypto market today is going to 1) solve inflation, our debt problem, or any other national crisis, 2) how do you create this reserve without causing a massive spike in crypto currency values, 3) how will this be paid for that doesn't explode our debt and /or the USDs in circulation and 4) if we need a store of value of 15T, why not do some or most it in gold and silver which have been stores of value for 1000s of years and are accepted by virtually every country or counterparty in the world. (It also works if the electric grid is destroyed by EMPs.)

I don't need to hear how Bitcoin is a good investment for individuals, I am already there and have some.


Well, there are crypto folks, Wall St folks, and academics, that have all explained why it's a smart move. You just have truly want to understand it and that requires a little bit of research.
jamey
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AG
YouBet said:

themissinglink said:

YouBet said:

Lord. Crypto has many different use cases depending on which one you are talking about.

Some of yall need to just spend some time learning instead of just **** posting about a topic you don't understand.
Certainly understand blockchain has a number of theoretical use cases and they will soon be rolled out… so why again do we need to spend 3x the size of the federal budget buying BTC? To completely deflate our currency to create a reserve currency, so that other countries will compete deflate their currency and move to the reserve currency?


I'm not necessarily advocating for this. I also admittedly missed the fact that the proposal was for $15T. I missed the T. Skimmed over that thinking it was a B.

So, yes, doing that right now would have some pretty bad impacts. My point on others needing to educate themselves on crypto stands.


That's with some predicted future price is how I understand it based on the title of the link. I don't have access to the whole article though

Its not 15T in today's dollars
Kansas Kid
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Then why not post a few of these to help educate us on how a $15 TRILLION reserve makes sense and how it will be funded. The only things I have seen was for a reserve that was less than 1% of this amount?
Yukon Cornelius
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AG
If Bitcoin is the future how can you not accumulate it as the United States?

There's more to it than just buying and pumping the price too.

For example tether and circle (USDC) are massive holders and buyers of US treasuries. Tether being one of the largest in the world.

Crypto currencies in the future via stable coins via US treasuries can cement the dollar into the digital age.


Another aspect of YS accumulating bitcoin is it will bring Bitcoin business etc to the United States in a global economy.

For example. US Banks could become the best custodial services for Bitcoin in the world. So global btc could being paying a custodial fee to US banks.


So it's far far more than just buying and holding. And the timeline for this planning is more than a few years.

They are planning for generations to come. Get on board. Become a legend for your offspring into the future
LatinAggie1997
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AG
Kansas Kid said:

Then why not post a few of these to help educate us on how a $15 TRILLION reserve makes sense and how it will be funded. The only things I have seen was for a reserve that was less than 1% of this amount?


You can take the initiative.

Now, as I recall - the phrasing was to buy 1 million BTC as a national Reserve, as Bitcoin is projected to surpass gold (15T), it would make fiscal sense. We aren't buying 15T. My guess is we spend less than 500B, and perhaps sell 200 B in gold.
YouBet
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AG
LatinAggie1997 said:

Kansas Kid said:

Then why not post a few of these to help educate us on how a $15 TRILLION reserve makes sense and how it will be funded. The only things I have seen was for a reserve that was less than 1% of this amount?


You can take the initiative.

Now, as I recall - the phrasing was to buy 1 million BTC as a national Reserve, as Bitcoin is projected to surpass gold (15T), it would make fiscal sense. We aren't buying 15T. My guess is we spend less than 500B, and perhaps sell 200 B in gold.


Well, that's more palpable.
LatinAggie1997
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AG
ITrust Capital commercial just ran - "Invest in Bitcoin with iTrust."

I had not seen this one.
Monywolf
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Kansas Kid said:

Then why not post a few of these to help educate us on how a $15 TRILLION reserve makes sense and how it will be funded. The only things I have seen was for a reserve that was less than 1% of this amount?
Wait until Kansas Kid finds out how our deficit is funded.
Kansas Kid
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Monywolf said:

Kansas Kid said:

Then why not post a few of these to help educate us on how a $15 TRILLION reserve makes sense and how it will be funded. The only things I have seen was for a reserve that was less than 1% of this amount?
Wait until Kansas Kid finds out how our deficit is funded.

Wait until you realize this will have absolutely no impact on inflation and would put the Federal government as the biggest player in Bitcoin. What could possibly go wrong with that? Anyone that thinks the "reserve" wouldn't be used for political purpose like the SPR was used by Biden. This is why I really struggle with this idea. It will make current investors a lot of money for certain but after that, it will screw up the market.
I bleed maroon
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AG
Kansas Kid said:

Monywolf said:

Kansas Kid said:

Then why not post a few of these to help educate us on how a $15 TRILLION reserve makes sense and how it will be funded. The only things I have seen was for a reserve that was less than 1% of this amount?
Wait until Kansas Kid finds out how our deficit is funded.

Wait until you realize this will have absolutely no impact on inflation and would put the Federal government as the biggest player in Bitcoin. What could possibly go wrong with that? Anyone that thinks the "reserve" wouldn't be used for political purpose like the SPR was used by Biden. This is why I really struggle with this idea. It will make current investors a lot of money for certain but after that, it will screw up the market.
It's actually kind of funny how people get tied up in pretzel knots over issues like this. It's easier for the fanboys to lecture and preach to people on the need to "study" or "research" bitcoin than to critically think through the issues.

On one hand, the bitcoin-uber-alles crew is vehemently anti-government, saying fiat currency is evil due to its' potential to be impacted by government decisions, but on the other hand, they're asking for massive government intrusion into the free-market by artificially propping up their chosen "currency" by creating an unwarranted reserve (much like the SPR, as you note). They're for small government, except when they aren't. No logical consistency. This is before mentioning the obvious alternative use argument that paying down the debt is far better for all US citizens, for ALL types of currency.

Of course, the answer is primarily for the market to sort this out (with appropriate consumer protection safeguards), but each side has incentive for shortcuts (with non-economically justified after-effects) because it supports their own self-interest and bias.
MRB10
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AG
I don't know that I've ever heard of a bitcoiner advocate for a reserve because they want the federal government to back stop the demand or prop up the price. Generally, most of us are greedy and want as many coins as WE can get at the cheapest price(USD) and a reserve doesn't align with that desire. Advocating for a reserve is because we genuinely believe our monetary system is broken, the effects of dollar debasement and inflation is criminal, and many national/world issues would improve if we went back to a hard money standard. Bitcoin is currently the best hard money option in a digital age.

The idea that we want the federal government involved simply to pump the price, or backstop demand, so early adopters can buy more lambos is ridiculous.
one safe place
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I am waiting for Elon and his own crypto. Wonder if it will be called Eloncoin, or Muskcoin, or not even have "coin" in the name?
Kansas Kid
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MRB10 said:

I don't know that I've ever heard of a bitcoiner advocate for a reserve because they want the federal government to back stop the demand or prop up the price. Generally, most of us are greedy and want as many coins as WE can get at the cheapest price(USD) and a reserve doesn't align with that desire. Advocating for a reserve is because we genuinely believe our monetary system is broken, the effects of dollar debasement and inflation is criminal, and many national/world issues would improve if we went back to a hard money standard. Bitcoin is currently the best hard money option in a digital age.

The idea that we want the federal government involved simply to pump the price, or backstop demand, so early adopters can buy more lambos is ridiculous.

This is an argument for a digital currency or a USD that is exchangeable at a fixed rate for Bitcoin like the gold standard days. A strategic reserve doesn't accomplish any of this because we still have the fiat currency as the medium of exchange.
MRB10
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AG
You're correct. But using tax payer money to build up a reserve of a money/asset that can do the things I mentioned should be attractive if you really believe bitcoin does those things. The fact that the price is likely to increase exponentially due to its capped supply and we can potentially use it to reduce our fiat debt is a consideration but is not the only consideration.

You also need a stockpile of the hard money before you can make the fiat paper redeemable for said hard money.
Bag
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AG
the thing that I love most about BTC is the de-banking aspect of it, I figure when I get to 10 BTC it might be all the money I will ever need. What actually got me into BTC is I believe it to be the only tangible way to protest against the federal government, rampant consumerism and the federal reserve.
LMCane
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YouBet said:

Do we know the context of Buffett's comment? Was it strictly in reference to BTC? Was it in reference to all crypto? Was it in reference to the concept of digital currency?

These are three distinct things.
Buffett was very much against Bitcoin and made no secret of it



if you followed his advice here you just lost 2 trillion dollars
jamey
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AG
Monywolf said:

Selling it for fiat?


Yes, and put that into something traditional like QQQ or VOO
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