Business & Investing
Sponsored by

CDs are getting called early

7,348 Views | 45 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by Monywolf
permabull
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I just got an email saying that two CDs I have with Chase are getting called early. One was 5.5% maturing 12/6/24 and the other is 5.55% maturing 11/29/24.

I don't think I have ever seen this happen but its an obvious sign they are betting on rates to continue to drop. Interesting data point for anyone trying to lock in a long term CD to sacrifice some bps to make sure it's call protected.
Spaceship
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I didn't know they could do that.
Diggity
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/callable-certificate-of-deposit.asp
Furlock Bones
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
As they say, the house always wins. heads we win; tails you lose.

Sims
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I think a lot of borrowers would be surprised to find this language in their loan docs "Borrower will pay this loan in full immediately upon Lender's demand, but if no demand is made...."(then it goes on to describe the payment terms you thought you had).

It's almost surely there...
LMCane
How long do you want to ignore this user?
permabull said:

I just got an email saying that two CDs I have with Chase are getting called early. One was 5.5% maturing 12/6/24 and the other is 5.55% maturing 11/29/24.

I don't think I have ever seen this happen but its an obvious sign they are betting on rates to continue to drop. Interesting data point for anyone trying to lock in a long term CD to sacrifice some bps to make sure it's call protected.

same with me

two months ago my 2 year CD was called early
permabull
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I'm okay with it... I knew what I was getting into I just have never had it happen.

Its the same as someone paying off their car loan early. Basically I lent the bank money and they are paying me back early.

They are still paying me the interest for the months they held the loan
10andBOUNCE
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Just got notified this morning JP Morgan calling my CD that was maturing in December at 5.5%.

Curious what SPAXX will adjust to and when.
redag06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
If they are still paying the interest for those months, don't see the issue.

Throw the money in another CD, while rates are still up.
E
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Ive never heard of this before.

You get paid the full anticipated amount early? If so, i'd say that is a win.
permabull
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
for each one I am getting my full 10k back but I am only getting 9 months of interest not the full 12
Proposition Joe
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Yeah the whole point is it doesn't make financial sense for them to pay the interest on the remainder of the term based on the new rates so they are going to just return your principal and whatever interest you received before they called them.

Which if I understand correctly, means "callable" CDs are actually a rung below HYSA's simply due to accessibility of funds.
EliteZags
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
if they can do that without penalty we should be able to too
Stive
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Some CDs are callable and some are not. Know what you're putting your money into.
LMCane
How long do you want to ignore this user?
E said:

Ive never heard of this before.

You get paid the full anticipated amount early? If so, i'd say that is a win.
No that is not what happens.

I had a year CD, they paid me for the 8 months they kept it and returned it to me.
SW AG80
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
EliteZags said:

if they can do that without penalty we should be able to too
"we" are not the house. House always wins.
Sims
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
EliteZags said:

if they can do that without penalty we should be able to too
They typically do pay a penalty...the rates on callable CDs are (generally) higher than those on non-callable CDs.
I bleed maroon
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Sims said:

EliteZags said:

if they can do that without penalty we should be able to too
They typically do pay a penalty...the rates on callable CDs are (generally) higher than those on non-callable CDs.
Agree - they're pre-paying the "premium" for the ability to call. Gotta read the fine print on all financial instruments. (NOTE: I suspect there needs to be more consumer-protection regulatory work done on the bank disclosure requirements for these).

Another case in point - - Ally Bank used to offer (not sure if they still do) an 11-month penalty-free withdrawal CD and a one-time "raise your rate" 2+ year CD. Both of these implicitly charge for the privilege in the rates they offer.
permabull
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Yeah they likely can just issue a new 3 month CD for less than 5.5% and use the money they get from that to buy mine back
Troglodyte
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
These banks are the big boys. I would be interested if anyone is getting a CD called from a medium or small bank. Those are the banks that are suffering.
rathAG05
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
JPMorgan started issuing callable CD's a couple months back.. If you had an advisor they should have disclosed that. If you don't, then you didn't read the fine print.
permabull
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I knew they were callable...
Casey TableTennis
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
This is why Yield to Call (YTC), and yield to Worst (YTW) are critical to know at inception/purchase. In theory YTC is YTW if bought in the primary offering. Could vary if a secondary market purchase of a brokered CD, and rate environment has moved.
mosdefn14
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Jpm has had the highest callable CDs most weeks I look. They're nearly 1% higher than a non callable at 12-24mos. That tells you something. Dimon isn't dumb.
TxAg20
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Goldman overnight deposit account is paying 5.34% right now and your money is liquid every day.

I'm in some 13 month structured notes paying ~9% and they got up to 13% for new notes in early August. There's risk of loss if the S&P has dropped 40% on the date of maturity compared to the date of issuance, but otherwise it's a 13 month CD and the interest is taxed as capital gains rather than income.

With the options above, I have no interest in a 5.5% CD.
PeekingDuck
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Well done
Proposition Joe
How long do you want to ignore this user?
You can get 5.4%+ on a HYSA, which is better than a callable CD.
12thAngryMan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
How does one find and invest in these structured notes?
TxAg20
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I think all the larger investment banks offer them. Ray J, Merrill, GS, etc. Smaller banks can probably also offer them via other investment banks. They can be customized by tenor, value, and underlying risk. I like pegging mine to S&P 40% drop because (no risk of loss if S&P drops <40%) I believe that has never happened in a 13 month period. The rates fluctuate with volatility. In times of low volatility, you'll see upper single-digit rates. In higher volatility, you'll see low double-digit rates.

Edit: Here's some basics on Structured Notes from my FA last year. He used S&P minus 10% in his example, but you can use whatever number you're comfortable with:

* There are various types of structured notes, but typically they can be thought of as a debt instrument issued by a financial institution whose return is tied to the performance of another asset (equity/index/commodity/currency).


* For our separately managed account in particular, the strategy invests in several equity-linked structured notes across various maturities and issuers in what are often referred to as "contingent coupon notes." For example, they might invest in a structured note issued by JP Morgan with a maturity of 13 months, which offers an investor ~10% coupon (sometimes refer to as the "cap" or "max return"), as long as the S&P 500 is not 10% below current levels (which is referred to as a "buffer") when the note matures. In this scenario, if the S&P 500 has returned better than -10%, then you receive your 10% coupon (even if the market was up more). If the market ended up being down more than -10% when the note matures, your would have participated at an enhanced rate after the -10%. For example, if the enhanced rate was 1.1x participation and the S&P 500 returned -15% when the note matures, it would have returned -5.5% (you didn't begin participating in the downside until -10%, however you participated at a faster rate thereafter).

* Market Risk: This particular notes may underperform long equity in an appreciating market since upside potential is capped. Additionally, the market could be down more than your buffer on the particular day your note matures, and rally the next day. This is why it is why it can be beneficial to have notes with diversified maturities.


* Issuer/Credit Risk: Additionally, these notes include zero coupon bonds and, like other bonds, have risk of issuer default. This is why it is also important to diversify risk amongst different issuers.


* Other things to contemplate when considering structured notes relative to bonds or traditional long equity exposure:


* When the structured note matures it is a forced taxable event, albeit at long-term capital gains/losses rates


* Notes do not produce income until maturity because it is a zero coupon bond, versus long equities paying dividends and bonds paying interest, generally on a more frequent basis


* These note portfolios generally fall in-between the risk spectrum of equities and bonds and target ~2/3 the volatility of equities


* While these investments can be attractive and make sense in a broader portfolio, they should not be thought of as a replacement for cash which has daily liquidity or for investment grade fixed income, which in our view is the only asset class that offers a deflation hedge.


* These are often designed to be held to maturity, however there are secondary market opportunities, although these instruments have mark to market and liquidity risk.
I bleed maroon
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Proposition Joe said:

You can get 5.4%+ on a HYSA, which is better than a callable CD.
Yep. I'm trying to think of situations where a callable CD will be better at the same rate - FDIC protection? don't think so. Bankruptcy Priority? don't think so. Frictional/operational costs for the bank or enacting the call may make them slightly more reticent to move? Maybe, ever so slightly. Financial statement desireability for individuals or corporations? Doubt it, but there may be situations where CDs are viewed more favorably for some loan applications or other due diligence purposes. Bankers, any insight?
TxAg20
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I think CD's are a very simple concept for savers to understand and you can typically get them at the bank where you already have a deposit account. The advantage is simplicity and convenience.

I know a couple who are risk-averse that have done very well financially. Their investment portfolio is 90+% CD ladders. Probably mid-8 figures in CD's.
Ranger222
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Discover just sent out an email yesterday offering 5.1 on a 9 month good until 9/28
permabull
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I bleed maroon said:

Proposition Joe said:

You can get 5.4%+ on a HYSA, which is better than a callable CD.
Yep. I'm trying to think of situations where a callable CD will be better at the same rate - FDIC protection? don't think so. Bankruptcy Priority? don't think so. Frictional/operational costs for the bank or enacting the call may make them slightly more reticent to move? Maybe, ever so slightly. Financial statement desireability for individuals or corporations? Doubt it, but there may be situations where CDs are viewed more favorably for some loan applications or other due diligence purposes. Bankers, any insight?

Simplicity is one... buying CDs in your brokerage account keeps everything in one place vs signing up for different banks once or twice a year.

I am already likely wasting my time chasing the arbitrage of going with brokered CD's and t-bills over the money market that earns at most 30-50 bps less.
Bonfire97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I really don't understand buying callable CDs when interest rates are at a 15 year high over an extra half a percent. That's a great deal for the bank, though.
Proposition Joe
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Bonfire97 said:

I really don't understand buying callable CDs when interest rates are at a 15 year high over an extra half a percent. That's a great deal for the bank, though.

I'm sure some are OK with the bit of an added gamble, but I'd guess most people assume that a CD is a CD and had/have no idea about the "callable" aspect of it. I certainly wouldn't have.
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.