Trying to prepare for the future and considering a long term care plan through edward jones/ Lincoln National life insurance company. Its a Money guard Market Advantage/ flexible premium variable universal life insurance policy with a long term care rider.

Anyone have any experience with it? It sounds like a decent plan. Just have to put money in for 10 years and the money will grow in the market. You can get a death benefit if you die or if you need the money for long term care. When the money comes out you won't be taxed on it.

Trying to decide if we should do it or just invest money in a brokerage account and can use it for whatever. Down side is its more reliant on the market and we would get taxed on it when we take it out.

I'm interested in this too. My financiL advisor suggested something that sounds like you're talking about but being a few years away I have not dug into it too much.


We are putting enough in an HSA account that it could pay for a long term care for a few years, and the same goes for a Roth IRA I think could pay for 1 year. I don't think my wife will able to get any sort of coverage. Seems like having money that's not taxed wouls be a big factor in the cost, that's why I'm thinking HSA and a Roth IRA, if we can't get something like you're suggesting

The Moneyguard product is life insurance with an accelerated death benefit should you need long term care. The benefit is guaranteed vs. investing in the market. Nationwide has a similar product that may offer lower premiums for the same benefit Both also offer couples policies which provide a bucket of coverage each spouse can tap into in necessary.

These are good options if you need long term care insurance.

I agree on the over insurance but that's why they call it insurance. You can "roll the dice" and spend the last few years in a facility paid for by Medicaid. And that won't be very inviting. I'd rather be able to choose where I stay.

Mas89 said:

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A family member has a long term care policy and currently has home health care 24/7. After a fall last year and a month in a rehab facility, we knew home health care supervised and paid for by family was much better than any facility. The home healthcare policy does not pay for home health care without jumping thru dozens of hoops. No way to make it work with the excellent rotation of workers we currently have.

As always, best to have plenty of funds to pay for unforeseen circumstances. So far, the long term care policy has been a complete waste of money.

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The beauty of the policy to which the OP referred is that once your doctor says you can't do two of the six activities of daily living, the insurance company makes indemnify payments for your monthly benefit amount. There are no hoops to jump through. And it's not use of or lose it.

Edited to add - there is typically a 90-day waiting period before benefits are paid, so this isn't intended to cover a 30-day treatment. They first payment is usually 4-months worth of benefits to cover the 90-days.

Private insurance/warranties are for profit businesses. I know that sounds really simple - but think about it. They have tons of data and know how to price their products/services to turn profits. They generally don't profit from their insureds/customers saving money. Not saying they're not worthwhile...and in many instances they're necessary (homeowners and auto in most cases, e.g.)...but they're generally not in the business of doing you any favors.

It's sort of like Vegas...you may win every now and then. But the house wins more often than not.

This is true. Sometimes the insurance company wins the bet, and sometimes the policy owner does.

Again, these aren't use it or lose it policies. If they aren't used for long term care expenses, they still have a death benefit.

Yes. There is literally a book to read about all the requirements and hoops. The biggest obstacle was all providers having to be certified in certain things and associations. Basically you have to hire a service. Which is where the problems come from. There were so many requirements and conditions it was impossible to make a claim while employing the current staff, several of which had been helping part time for years before the fall.
Much better to hire individuals with years of experience and great local references in our situation.

I would have never understood all the LTC policy information and requirements until trying to actually make a claim. Luckily we have made it work without the LTC benefits so far.
Our only regret is the hours spent on the phone with the insurance company.

Not every policy and/or company is the same. The type that Monywolf is referring to is not the same as, what it sounds like, you have. Mutual insurance companies don't operate with the same approach as publicly traded, for profit companies.

You're right, in the end it's a bet. There's a better than 65% chance that you or your wife will need some version of long-term care assistance later in life (actual actuarial presumptions for a relatively healthy, 50 year old couple). When compared to anything in Vegas, those are pretty good odds that a policy would come in handy and be financially beneficial. When you throw in the death benefit that the combo products offer (like the OP is considering), then it creates an almost no-lose situation in purchasing the insurance.

My mom had a LTC policy we didn't know about until after she died. When I tried for a refund, nope, not happening. Then I read the pre-quals before benefits kicked in, try 2 different docs certifying she needed to be in a facility, 90 days in a facility before payments started, income statements, it was ludicrous. I'd look at a single pay policy from Nationwide over anything with multiple payments. Also check your projected income at retirement, I have enough with my SS, military pension & RMD's so I'm good. Also check what happens if you just kick off before using benefits and any qualifications on receiving any money back, sometimes what they say and what the contract says are 2 different things.

Our FA has said to just fund this out of our investments if we need it. We are currently debt free so this would become an expense line item for us if one of us needed it.

I recall reading on this board a recommendation for a guy who acts as a navigator in dealing with LTC claims. Or am I imagining that?

Your mom doesn't have the hybrid life insurance / long term care policy to which I have referred.

Ballpark price for an LTC policy to cover say two years in a place ? Single or couple ? Will need something like this I guess in a couple years.
Thanks.

One other thing to consider. If your home is paid for it can be sold to provide funds for self care.

OldArmyCT said:

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One other thing to consider. If your home is paid for it can be sold to provide funds for self care.

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Would you recommend that if there's still another spouse in the mix? It seems like the insurance is so much easier as far as peace of mind on this stuff. Especially if you or your spouse are subjected to a long claim i.e. Alzheimer's.

AgOutsideAustin said:

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Ballpark price for an LTC policy to cover say two years in a place ? Single or couple ? Will need something like this I guess in a couple years.
Thanks.

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It depends on your age and your spouse's age and how much monthly coverage you want to buy, for instance $5,000/mo. Look up Genworth cost of care calculator for average cost of care in your area. This will give you average costs for home health care and semi or private rooms in a nursing facility.

The policies have inflation riders so the benefit increases by 3% minimum per year.

Ok thanks

AgOutsideAustin said:

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Ok thanks

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Assuming good health, they can be anywhere from a couple of hundred a month for an average policy with no frills all the way up to $1,000 a month for a combo product (alluded to in posts above) that's finished being paid in 15 years but then lasts forever.

There's a decent sized range depending on what you end up deciding fits you best.

Stive said:

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AgOutsideAustin said:

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Ok thanks

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Assuming good health, they can be anywhere from a couple of hundred a month for an average policy with no frills all the way up to $1,000 a month for a combo product (alluded to in posts above) that's finished being paid in 15 years but then lasts forever.

There's a decent sized range depending on what you end up deciding fits you best.

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Ok thanks I was hoping to get something no frills to decent for about $400-$500/month then use investments to self insure the difference.

AgOutsideAustin said:

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Stive said:

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AgOutsideAustin said:

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Ok thanks

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Assuming good health, they can be anywhere from a couple of hundred a month for an average policy with no frills all the way up to $1,000 a month for a combo product (alluded to in posts above) that's finished being paid in 15 years but then lasts forever.

There's a decent sized range depending on what you end up deciding fits you best.

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Ok thanks I was hoping to get something no frills to decent for about $400-$500/month then use investments to self insure the difference.

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That's doable. You probably won't have inflation protection on the policy, or if you do, it'll be a pretty small amount of coverage. But at current pricing and assumptions, it's doable.

I've used a lot of VULs with LTC riders to check this box off for clients. I rarely ever see any pure LTC policies anymore come to think of it.

The "use it or use it" aspect of it is appealing and it leaves the investments earmarked for other things left untouched.

OldArmyCT said:

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One other thing to consider. If your home is paid for it can be sold to provide funds for self care.

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OldArmy, I am like minded. Without touching investments nor our SEP/IRAs (we are 67&66), we have right at $19,000/month income. Once our RMDs kick in that will obviously go up.

I am confident that with that income, plus the sale of our houses (we have one in College Station also), we are pretty self insured. Now, I guess we could spend ie waste away our kids' inheritance but maybe we will kick off quickly. And I hope that is the case. And yes, I know hope is not a plan!!

I never have been big on insurance. As kids were young and in college I had life insurance but I knew then it was not a sufficient amount. Fortunately for the entire family, that worked out. So I think I will keep that same philosophy into old age.

SnowboardAg said:

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Insurance sells based on fear (as does warranties). Then the frustrating thing is when you really need it, there's all these exclusions and ways that they've written off responsibility.

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This is a serious consideration. My inlaws both had long-term care policies. My FIL didn't qualify for the better provider, since he had an abdominal aortic stent and a history of kidney disease, so he settled for a SILAC policy. My MIL had no health issues, so she did qualify for the better one (John Hancock).

My MIL began having health issues first, after some falls. So we began learning there.

In order to collect on my MIL's policy, she must need assistance with "3 activities of daily living." Other policies may differ in where they set the bar to collect. From JH's website: "Personal care activities that may include bathing, dressing, eating, transferring, toileting, and continence." For example, IIRC, my FIL's policy with SILAC did not count dressing as a qualifying activity of daily living.[url=https://www.johnhancock.com/help-center/long-term-care/glossary.html#][/url]

There's also an "exclusion period" you need to look out for. That means once you reach the threshold of needing the policy, you have to pay yourself for a period while you wait to actually get it. Fortunately, with John Hancock, the exclusion period was only 90 days. AND, JH paid for home health care. AND, one day of home health care counted as a whole week against the exclusion period. We were having the HHC come in 3 days a week (but that only still counted as a week against the exclusion period.) There are policies out there where a day of HHC counts only as one day against the exclusion period. We got thru the 90 days and they both moved into an assisted living facility. Her policy paid for up to $3000 a month (for 3 years, or a max of $109k). That's about half of what their apartment costs, including the $950/mo for "level two care" that they charge for the daily living activity assistance.

My FIL went downhill about a year after she did. But, his issue was his kidney disease. He didn't have problems bathing or feeding himself or toileting, etc. so he didn't qualify yet to collect on his policy. Even if he had gotten to where he needed help with 3 of those items, his exclusion period was a full year. Once we felt like it would have made sense to re-apply to collect on his policy (he was denied an earlier application because he was doing too well...) it was clear that he had less than a year to live. He went from "not qualifying" to "dead" in less than a year, so he collected nothing on the premiums they paid for years.

I'm not arguing for or against LTC policies, I'm just hoping y'all can make better informed decisions after reading this. We sure didn't know these things when we bought our LTC policies, or when my in-laws bought theirs. After our experiences with JH and SILAC, we are probably going to continue paying for ours, but only after we did additional research into the terms and looked at alternatives (i.e. investing the money differently). If we didn't already have our LTCs established, we probably wouldn't sign up for them.

You should thinking about it from the perspective of the end goal in mind.

If you are worried about spending your kids inheritance but not really worried about running out of money you are better off looking at a second to die life insurance policy. You'll likely get more leverage and you don't have to worry about whether or not it will pay.

Alternatively you can just invest enough and not worry about it at all. Self insure.

After both parents went into LTC for different reasons, we went the hybrid policy approach with an inflation rider. Peace of mind.

It's insurance. If you run the numbers on a 10-pay policy and take the annual premium over 10 years and invest it in a separate account earmarked for LTC, assuming your own behavior doesn't get in the way, you're likely to come out ahead by not buying the LTC product. The longer the period of time you use in your calculations the more this is gonna be true.

When it doesn't work out in your favor is if you're not disciplined enough to invest the would-be LTC premiums over the same time frame you'd be paying on the policy, or if you can't leave **** alone when the market drops. Also if you need LTC a lot sooner than expected. Again, it's insurance.

Insurance is vital as you age, IMO. We had a "out of the blue" cancer diagnosis. In one year medical expenses were close to $2 million. Out of pocket ~ $50 total. We had excellent insurance and advised all our family to never scrimp on it. Could we have paid from our investments YES, but that would be taking money from future generations. My advice is to be covered (I'm not in the insurance business if you're wondering).

i'm curious what the premiums on these policies are. Roughly. Especially the LTC + life insurance ones referenced above.

Obviously it depends on age, policy, health, etc....but just curious of data points if anyone cam share.

Hybrid policy wife and I, used IRA funds, about $9k per year for ~10 years (?), started at life ins = $250k, monthly benefit at $3500 each now = about $5k each per month, life ins the same, bought when I was 64

Approx numbers

MAS444 said:

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i'm curious what the premiums on these policies are. Roughly. Especially the LTC + life insurance ones referenced above.

Obviously it depends on age, policy, health, etc....but just curious of data points if anyone cam share.

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Can be structured all kinds of ways as far as how long yo want to pay premiums for, how long you're comfortable coverage lasting, and our death benefit, etc.

To answer your ? With ones I've written lately, you're in the ~$4k/year range.