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Indexed universal life insurance policies

1,493 Views | 19 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by Joseph in Cypress
valvemonkey91
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AG
I am a financial novice. I've maxed out 401K for 30yrs and have a pension from an oil company. Looking at a 4yr retirement date. I was just introduced to this financial vehicle. Was wanting some input from some of the experts here. YouTube videos abound (both pro and con. Dave Ramsey isn't a fan but videos say he has a misunderstanding of the his concept.

Any folks on here have experience with this as a retirement vehicle?

Claims abound that it is better than a Roth and you never lose your principle as they leverage your contribution's with upside options.

TIA
I bleed maroon
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This is one I have some personal experience with - -

It MAY be worth it for you, but it may not. I was in a similar position about a decade ago, and bought one. I did a lot of analysis, and while it has underperformed my expectations, it has generally been OK, compared to the alternatives. My belief is that it's a rare and tiny group of people that can really benefit from it (mainly those already maxing out their other retirement savings sources).

First, and most importantly, if you don't actually need or want the life insurance portion, I'd stay away. In my case, I wanted a million of permanent coverage to be in effect through retirement, as my term life was going to run out at some point (after your level term period, the premiums skyrocket, and it's only worth keeping if you're terminal, or in VERY poor health). So, I got the universal indexed life, and selected the increasing death benefit option (every year your cash value increase is added to the million initial coverage amount). I maxed out premiums for 7 years (can't go over a certain calculated amount, or the IRS will consider it an investment, and not life insurance), and now pay nothing in premiums (it is guaranteed to never lapse or be canceled).

Bottom line, I have in effect been getting "free" insurance coverage and a decent rate of return on the cash value over the past decade. My death benefit is now over $1.45 million, and my cash value is $450k. The return has been more in the 3-5% range than the 8-10% that was projected before purchase (which I never believed would happen). I expected 5-6%ish, so it's kind of in the ballpark, but a bit short. Please understand, the past decade has been a pretty exceptional return environment, so it may get worse from here for me, and may be worse from the get-go for you.

It is true that your cash value is guaranteed to be growing at least 0%. So, it's safe from that perspective. There is a cost for this - - depending on your policy, it is usually due to a cap on the maximum returns, or a "participation rate" where you only get a percentage (40-60% in my case - it adjusts from time to time) of the returns of the index(es) involved. It can also use both of these limitations (mine does).

The other big gotcha is that you have to want to keep this thing a LOOOONG time. "Surrender charges" are assessed for the first 7-10 years of the contract, if you want to cash it in. It's a declining percentage, like 7-8% the first year grading down to 0 over time. This is mainly to cover the commissions your salesperson earns on the sale. I wish there was a "no-load" version, but I must admit that this vehicle requires a LOT of explanation to even a financially sophisticated buyer, which a good salesperson will do. A bad salesperson will just tell you to look at the "illustrated rate (the 8-10% mentioned earlier) and tell you it's a no-brainer.

Most policies link to the S&P 500 Index, which is just fine. I went for an even more exotic flavor, and have a global index method. I have 3 indexes in the policy - the S&P, the EuroStoxx Index, and the Hang Seng Index. Every 1-5 years, I get 75% of the highest performer, 25% of the next highest, and they drop the lowest performer. This is once again paid for by haircutting the return, or putting a cap on it (frustratingly, this is all at the whim of the insurance company each year). In hindsight, I would have been better off with just the S&P, but this may change in the future (who knows?). It is definitely unnecessarily complex, but since my main use was for supplemental retirement income and the life insurance, I was OK with a bit more risk (and complexity).

The policies are INITIALLY reviewed and approved by the state insurance departments, but there is really no decent "ins-and-outs" financial summary routinely provided for the policy - - life insurance companies are not good with customer-friendly annual statements (and you usually can't get any decent interim info until the next annual report). So, you are taking it a bit on faith that they will calculate everything appropriately (with your only recourse being to file a complaint with the state insurance department).

I don't regret my purchase, but I think you should go into it with your eyes wide open, do your due diligence, and ask as many people about it as possible before deciding to take the plunge.
Mas89
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Keep it simple and this " financial vehicle" is anything but simple. And get away from any advisor trying to sell you that.
If you want life insurance, buy a term policy with a level 10 or 20 year term which will be expensive at your age.
Cash in some of your retirement, pay the tax, and buy some silver and gold American Eagle coins. I'm convinced our currency is going to be greatly devalued consistently over the coming rest of our years. Not so sure the sp 500 and overall equities markets will keep up.
I bleed maroon
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Mas89 said:

Keep it simple and this " financial vehicle" is anything but simple. And get away from any advisor trying to sell you that.
I generally agree with this advice, for most people. I'm a lifelong "buy term and invest the difference" guy when it comes to life insurance.

However, in my case, the alternatives I was considering at the time included buying a number of residential real estate investments, and potentially active small business investing/ownership. Both of those have significantly higher transaction costs, risks, and likelihood of proactive management needed. The passive nature of the indexed life was actually a feature, not a drawback, for me.
P.H. Dexippus
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Primer
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/5-reasons-not-to-buy-indexed-universal-life-insurance/

Boggleheads is your friend on this topic
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7890814#p7890814
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=372827
ChoppinDs40
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Aren't these also tax free income when taking the distributions?

That's what been attractive to me as we'll have lots of taxable income (likely) from pension, 401k and IRA withdrawals.
I bleed maroon
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That's a good question. I'm not sure of the answer. I think your distributions are tax-free up to the total of your cumulative premium paid, and then taxed as capital gains, but the IRS might have some sort of formula that applies (some portion of each withdrawal is taxable)? The tax-free accumulation made it more attractive to me than adding to an after-tax brokerage account (as I had plenty there already). It was really a diversification move as much as anything.

In any case, my initial thinking was I'd just take policy loans against the cash value if I needed cash along the way. I think the loans are tax free indefinitely (but of course you have to pay interest).
ChoppinDs40
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I bleed maroon said:

That's a good question. I'm not sure of the answer. I think your distributions are tax-free up to the total of your cumulative premium paid, and then taxed as capital gains, but the IRS might have some sort of formula that applies (some portion of each withdrawal is taxable)? The tax-free accumulation made it more attractive to me than adding to an after-tax brokerage account (as I had plenty there already). It was really a diversification move as much as anything.

In any case, my initial thinking was I'd just take policy loans against the cash value if I needed cash along the way. I think the loans are tax free indefinitely (but of course you have to pay interest).


Yes that's what I meant. Taking loans that never get repaid. Interest should be less than the growth.

The way I've seen them set up is you contribute for 20 years, hit the 7 year mark for the IRS hurdle, then they'll set up a distribution schedule to walk the balance to 0 by the time you're like 80.
valvemonkey91
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ChoppinDs40 said:

Aren't these also tax free income when taking the distributions?

That's what been attractive to me as we'll have lots of taxable income (likely) from pension, 401k and IRA withdrawals.


100% tax free under IRS rule 7702 (according to the YouTube videos I have been watching).
htxag09
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Excuse my ignorance, but this sounds like whole life? How is it different?
valvemonkey91
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htxag09 said:

Excuse my ignorance, but this sounds like whole life? How is it different?


Just now learning about them but basic claims are:

It's a life insurance policy that provides access to your cash, tax free - for everything from supplemental retirement income, business capital, children's education and emergency funds.

You can never lose your principle investment as gains are leveraged by call options.

And when you die, the death benefit transfers to your beneficiaries tax free.


The cash value portion of the policy is indexed to an exchange of your choice (S&P, Russell, etc) for a specified time and your profits are based on the performance of them. If the indies has a down year, the options simply expire and no principle is lost.

Ag13
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valvemonkey91 said:

I am a financial novice. I've maxed out 401K for 30yrs and have a pension from an oil company. Looking at a 4yr retirement date. I was just introduced to this financial vehicle. Was wanting some input from some of the experts here. YouTube videos abound (both pro and con. Dave Ramsey isn't a fan but videos say he has a misunderstanding of the his concept.

Any folks on here have experience with this as a retirement vehicle?

Claims abound that it is better than a Roth and you never lose your principle as they leverage your contribution's with upside options.

TIA
Who's trying to sell it to you? Ask them how much commission they make off the sale. And then ask how that's going to be paid for and why it's possibly better than investing in an index ETF with a fee of less than 0.10%.

Never lose your principle is a very broad claim to make and I have seen personally where people end up with less than they put in due to changing rates and monster fees. The person that gets the commission doesn't have to worry about all that though.
Dr T and the Women
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I Bleed Maroon did a great job explaining

I agree it is not for 99% of the population.

However if you have maxed out the other buckets (401k/ira etc) then it is not a terrible option

Here is my thought process. I gained:

1. asset protection... can't come for it. I am in a highly litigious vocation
2. early on... large death benefit.
3. tax advantaged when I pull it out (think Roth like).

I have a high death benefit early but later on the plan is to lower the death benefit and focus on the cash value. This becomes annuity like.. I pull out the cash value as a loan and that is tax free income. I expect to be in the same tax bracket at retirement (and I expect that rate to be higher than now) so I don't like tax deferred options like a cash value pension plan


I am year 4. I am a disappointed in my returns so far but my advisor chose "conservative" indexes that had bonds also.. the bond market collapsed and basically 7 stocks pulled up the sp... if you had a version without the weight of those 7 you would trail

I went in knowing that you will be upside down early with the drag of commission and insurance cost.. you have to expect to not touch it early.

However in later years the % of cost is actually quite low... similar to an index fund... so early high but as cash value is large the cost can be minimal

I also now am pulling money out as a loan so I can pursue higher rates of return.. google infinite banking.

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
ChoppinDs40
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Ding ding ding

These things can essentially be used as a massive personal line of credit.

Financing investments, huge dips in the market, etc.
Joseph in Cypress
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Monkey,
I would be happy to explain the pros and cons in detail and you can decide what is best for you. I work at an independent firm so I have access to pretty much all that is out there. Not all IUL's are created equally. When built and funded correctly they are fantastic vehicles. If they are not funded properly then they can self destruct.

I have both term and the IUL, my wife has an IUL and both my kids have IUL's. my 24 year old daughter also has term now she has a big girl job.

Everyone has an opinion on the subject and while most don't use it as a tool doesn't mean that they are wrong or I am right. It's what is best for what each person based on their goals.

Feel free to reach out my info is in bio
Joseph

Joseph George '92
Joseph in Cypress
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Whole life has a set premium you have to pay. IUL's have some flexibility in premiums. Whole life cash value gets credited usually based on the dividends of the company. IUL cash value gets credit usually based on an index. Neither will have their cash value drop in a bad market. Both can have loans taken out against the policy.

The concept, cost and benefits are simple. How everything works can be complicated though.
Joseph George '92
Joseph in Cypress
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You're right. Using some of my cash value to pay for our daughter's wedding. Loan at 2.5%. Being my own bank right now. Better than selling stocks and paying taxes on gains for me right now.
Joseph George '92
Joseph in Cypress
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You will need to check the math to see if it works for you but if you are in decent health it might. It is something we call a pension hedge.

pensions have different pay outs for single vs joint survivor. A lot of folks choose a joint pay out so their spouse continues receiving money after they pass. That monthly payout difference is probably known to you now. take a single payout and apply the difference towards an insurance policy whose death benefit would equal the pension payments adjusted for time value. You would want to start the policy now with that same monthly amount. Cash value is not the primary concern with this policy so it will need to be structured accordingly.

The beautiful thing is if you were going to live on joint payout anyway and if the math provides your wife with the same money if you die in the first year then the longer you live the better the deal. Just have to do the math.
Joseph George '92
Dr T and the Women
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Who is your carrier that offers 2.5 % in today's world?

My loan is 5
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Joseph in Cypress
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Ameritas fat fingered my number it is 3.5%.
Joseph George '92
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