Fantasy to live abroad with family for 1-3 years

5,118 Views | 40 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by infinity ag
NWE
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Is this a common mid-life crisis thought? Lately I've been feeling compelled to pick a city in a new country and rent a home for some time.

I could list all the reasons but the best reason I have is "why not". I have three kids ages 11,7,&4 and I know there will always be 100 reasons to not do something.

I feel like the rat race is getting to me and I don't want to die with the idea of legacy I didn't make and the places I never went.

UK, Australia, Asia somewhere, Spain, Portugal. It wouldn't be forever, but I can't help but imagine the adventure and perspective 12-36 months in another country would provide my family and me.
tamc93
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AG
Perhaps try a summer abroad? I know a couple of clients who did it and it was a struggle for a short duration.

Otherwise go for it!
Greener Acres
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tamc93 said:

Perhaps try a summer abroad? I know a couple of clients who did it and it was a struggle for a short duration.

Otherwise go for it!
Wha struggles did they experience? There was another thread awhile back about retirement and the interest in long stays abroad was common.
HollywoodBQ
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Ah Mate!

Don't know how old you are but I was 37 when we decided it was time to take the family overseas for what I expected would be 2 years. Daughters were 9 & 12 when we moved Down Under. (Start to finish it took 10 months to get a work visa in 2007)

I wrote my epic novel on things you need to consider here:
https://texags.com/forums/56/topics/3116157

I originally wrote that during early California Covid so I'll re-read it and see if I've got anything else to add now that I'm safely wedged into Texas for the rest of my life.

On re-read, given the fact that we're in a US Election year, expect to get a lot of questions about US Politics. Either about Donald Trump should he get elected or Kamala Harris should she get elected. Foreigners will be curious either way.

I went to Austria in 2003 and moved to Australia in 2007. In both situations, I got lots of questions about George Bush and the war in Iraq.

Otherwise, I can't emphasize enough that you need a plan for how you're getting in - work, school, funding, etc. And also a plan (ironically since I just mentioned the US invasion of Iraq) you need a plan for how and when you're getting out.

Lastly, you need to be committed to the cause. I've seen a lot of Americans go overseas (both to Saudi Arabia and even to Australia) and they don't last a year. First sign of difficulty and they're gone.

I had an American girl in my office in Sydney who couldn't deal and among her complaints were the fact that they didn't have items she was used to like - Crest toothpaste. I really had to keep from laughing on that one.

Another American guy struggled and was gone from Sydney after 10 months because he wasn't committed to building relationships. He expected things to be much more transactional. You put a good business value proposal in front of the customer, they spend a few million dollars with you. And that's not how the Australian culture works. They're not obsessed with the bottom line the way US corporations are.

I was successful in stopping one guy from transferring to Sydney (from our office in KC, MO) once I explained to him that he wouldn't be able to bring his Honda Odyssey mini-van. That was the deal breaker for him. Also, there was the bit about paying $5,000/yr per child for his 5 kids to attend the public school. So he was starting out $25,000 (after tax dollars) in the hole every year as an expat.
NWE
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AG
Thank you for this. I appreciate the solid recap. You're still in Australia?
HollywoodBQ
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You're welcome.
No, I'm not there any longer. I pulled the pin on Australia in January 2020 and moved back to my house in California.
In mid-late 2023, I sold out of California and moved to Galveston.
NWE
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While I work for a small company now, I come from big big global companies I'd apply to for work abroad if my current company wasn't willing to sponsor me for.

I'm new to the logistics of it all though. If I applied to a role in UK, for example, wouldn't I get put near the bottom of the pile because of the added expense to sponsor me?
HollywoodBQ
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That's a good question. It depends on if you have some exceptional skill that they're not able to hire for locally.

In my case, when I went to Australia, I was one of the best people in the world at a particular suite of software. Plus, I had my Los Angeles credentials and it was a transfer with the same company so I had plenty of folks who could vouch for me and my work.

In Australia, there was a shortage of skill and it's the age old debate of do I hire somebody who knows how to do what I need right now, or do I hire somebody and then train them for 6-12 months and hope they get it.

I was looking for the adventure so I took less money to move to Australia than what I was making in LA. And once I understood the taxes and school system in Australia, I was making a lot less money than I was making in LA.

In your case, if you don't have any connection to a particular country/area, I'd network like crazy to find somebody who you know and knows you and your work to see if they have any recommendations. If your wife let's say was from England or the EU, then you'd have a lot more doors open due to not requiring sponsorship.

During my time in Australia, I met a few other Americans and Aggies who had come down there because they had unique knowledge in a specific industry. I met a few other Americans who came down because they were young and unattached and then fell in love with an Australian while they were there.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you're just starting out, you've got more opportunity but probably also lower wages and fewer responsibilities. If you're well established in your career, that's going to be more of a needle in a haystack kind of thing.

Maybe look for an American start-up who is looking to enter a foreign market. At one company I used to work for, they had a number of Americans in Japan who took that route. When the established American firm was trying to make its first sales in Japan, they went over there and just stayed. Took Japanese wives, etc.
tamc93
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They had younger school age children, so the one of the issues was the thrill of abroad vs keeping friends.

Working remote mostly worked out, but there was always a chance of a need for a meeting back in the US.

Aging parents.

One of them tried to only book 30-day stints in places so they could move around/cancel as needed for flexibility.

Overall they generally had good times, but it was not without stress.

----
We have thought about doing something similar since our kids our out, but then we have the same if not more of the issues since we own our own business that would require me to be back at least 1-week a month.
Bayou City
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Just did it with kids and wish we'd have done it earlier.
"I've lived through some terrible things in my life, some of which have actually happened."

Mark Twain
JMac03
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I can't speak personally, but my aunt/uncle moved to Qatar when my cousin was a junior. My cousin finished out her junior/senior year and graduated in Qatar. They stayed for a total of 6-7 years, and had hoped it would have been another 2-3 years, but Chevron sent them back home. For them it was perfect. The only negative is they had 3 other children so they went long periods of time without seeing them (they were between 19-23 years old). But the life experiences they gained, and how cheap it was to visit the rest of the world from there was worth it for them.

I've already told hubs when we retire we will be staying 1-2 months at a time when we visit places. But of course that is way different than moving a family over there and working.
supermanrv
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Just moved back to the States after being gone 5.5 years with small children. Grateful for our incredible experiences, but happy to be home raising our kids in TX.
ATM9000
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I've live abroad with my family for about 5 years now… won't be forever but we've loved it. What I will say is if you do it, plan to do it for longer than a year or 2 especially if you have a family. Living and working abroad with a family is so much different than doing it as a student. Work for you and school for the kids is generally the same grind as the States. You won't have near the time you probably think you will in your head to travel, explore, or drink wine in cafes as you probably have in your head. I can tell you at this point we've gotten our travels and enjoying our locale in where when we leave, my itch will feel scratched. No way that would have been the case 3 years ago though.

And as HollywoodBQ says (seen his writing on all of this in the past and he's got great tips and commentary on this), you have to really think through the financial implications to all of it. Localizing in another place is a big deal. Healthcare, retirement accounts etc etc all work differently in different locations. Don't think about just the short term implications but also what the long term implications are. Even small things you don't think about like you don't have a credit history outside of the US initially costs you for example.
FC12
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I have kids of similar age as you. I live in Switzerland (2.5yrs) now with plans to extend to another country for a few more years.
100% go for it if you can manage the employment side.
mosesrab90
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We've done it twice - dragged wife + 3 kids (6, 3, and 10 months old at time) to Asia 25 years ago and loved it. Had 4th kid and did a 5-year stint in Switzerland bouncing all over Europe for work. Can tell you it's a game changer for your kids and getting exposed to other cultures; definitely puts the American way of life (good & bad) in a different context.

Wife and I just moved to Europe for my business - no clue how long we'll be here but doing it without kiddos this time.
CanyonAg77
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Curious about the $5000 per child for school. Do Australians pay that, or was that just a fee for immigrants?

I wont derail with a discussion as to how that differs vs the US and immigrants both legal and illegal, but it is interesting
HollywoodBQ
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CanyonAg77 said:

Curious about the $5000 per child for school. Do Australians pay that, or was that just a fee for immigrants?

I wont derail with a discussion as to how that differs vs the US and immigrants both legal and illegal, but it is interesting
It is just for immigrants on a work visa.

The Australian attitude is:
  • You're not going to stay here so why should we pay for your education?
  • You haven't paid into the system your whole life even though you're paying now so you've got some catching up to do.
Once you gain Permanent Residency (think Green Card), then the $5,000 per child per year goes away.

The other factor (which is what led me to fully Private for my kids) is that they have a Magnet type school system called "Selective Schools" where the kids are tested in Year 5 (5th Grade) as to whether they're going to be admitted to the top public High Schools with the other smart kids (who are mostly Chinese and Indonesian). Note that in Australia, High School is Years 7-12.

One of the caveats for the Selective School system is that you must already be a Permanent Resident before your kid is in Year 5. So both of my girls missed the cutoff and I wound up paying about $250,000 for them to go to Private High School and get a great education versus being left to fend for themselves with the kids whose only ambition in life is to go surfing and finish up at the local RSL Club to knock back a few tinnies or schooners at the end of the week - because all the best students had already been siphoned off of the top of the local school.

As a "temporary resident" on a work visa, one other minor deal was that my children couldn't ride public transport for free so I had to buy them a bus pass. In Sydney, they don't have school busses, the students just ride the regular busses or trains or ferries as needed. One funny thing is that students - since they're riding for free - are supposed to get up and surrender their seat if an adult boards the bus and wants to sit down. And remarkably, they do with very little friction.

EDIT: Looks like the fees have gone up to $6,000 for Primary School (K-6) and $7,000 for High School (7-12) and rising again for 2025.
https://www.deinternational.nsw.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/16402/16402-Education-Fees.pdf

One other thing I forgot to add was that I had to bring a letter signed off by the New South Wales Department of Training & Education that showed that my children were eligible to enroll in school in Australia and that I had paid the fees for them upfront for the whole year. Only after that was the Registrar allowed to speak with them about enrollment.
CanyonAg77
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AG
Interesting
HollywoodBQ
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Yeah, I had forgotten about some of those details.

Can you imagine if they tried to make H-1B visa holders, and/or illegals pay $5,000/yr per student to attend our American public schools? Anyway - we can save that whole discussion for the Politics Board.

But bottom line - yes, Australia discriminates against immigrants and not just Africans, Vietnamese and Iraqis, they discriminate against Americans too.
barbacoa taco
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I've lived abroad for months but not years, it's always been a dream of mine to live somewhere for years and get fluent in the language (no English speaking countries!)

Also, I know many people who have lived abroad for extended periods of time. Some have come back, some have stayed. But absolutely no one regretted the decision.

Living abroad radically changes your perspective on the world and on American culture, for better or for worse.
ATM9000
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HollywoodBQ said:


I was looking for the adventure so I took less money to move to Australia than what I was making in LA. And once I understood the taxes and school system in Australia, I was making a lot less money than I was making in LA.



This nugget was snuck in and probably deserves some emphasis: unless you are on a long term assignment with a company where you are on a true expat contract where accommodation is taken care of, taxes equalized etc etc., expect to make less money in a different locale before taxes (which are probably also higher) and significantly less at that.

I can't tell you the number of Americans I've met who have sought interest in working in the UK or France and their mouths go agape when they realize pay packages are 20-30% lower here and they are paying more tax. You do avoid some costs associated with that… but when you hear people talk about perspectives on the American way of life, broadly speaking that's code for learning how to live within a lower standard of living and be happy. And that is an important thing to learn.
Danger Mouse
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For the last 10 years I have formulated a plan to live abroad. Accelerated by the pandemic. During that time I became a granddad, which is influencing my decision to modify my original plan. Staying 30, 60, and 90 days periods while maintaining my US residence. In that way I spend time with the family back in the States.
Class of '91 (MEEN)
putu
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You could always try Puerto Rico. Lots of tax breaks for Americans to move their business down there. Its a US Territory so its easy and has American currency and businesses, plus a good majority speak English. But is also a beautiful country with great food. Its also a great launching pad to explore the rest of the Caribbean. There are some good private schools down there as well.
"Cal (9-3) vs. Texas A&M (9-3). On the list of rare sights in Southern California, a team running the option -- as the Aggies like to do with QB Stephen McGee -- ranks right up there with real breasts and 12 inches of snow." Stewart Mandel CNNSI
HollywoodBQ
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putu said:

You could always try Puerto Rico. Lots of tax breaks for Americans to move their business down there. Its a US Territory so its easy and has American currency and businesses, plus a good majority speak English. But is also a beautiful country with great food. Its also a great launching pad to explore the rest of the Caribbean. There are some good private schools down there as well.
As the resident Puerto Rican on this board, I like to do anything I can to promote Puerto Rico.

Obviously San Juan is the big city but there is a lot of manufacturing outside San Juan. Caguas and Ponce are two areas you might look into.

When I was a kid, we used to have to drive to Caguas to go shopping or to Plaza Las Americas in San Juan for high end shopping (so to speak).

As an adult, I've taken my family back to PR a few times during the past 20 years, most recently, my wife and I went in March 2023. These days, it's not hard to find anything you want. Seriously, they have Sams Club in Caguas, WalMart in Humacao. They even have a Chili's in Humacao and a Fuddruckers in Caguas.

Since I'm a tall blond headed guy, people won't speak Spanish to me unless I speak it to them first. And even then, a lot of times, they'll reply in English. A lot of times if the cashier doesn't feel comfortable speaking English, they'll go get somebody else to wait on me. But if you're in a really rural area like when bought gas in Naguabo, the gas station attendant was the only person working there and she didn't speak English so she had to speak to me in Spanish.

If you decide that you want to do a trial of Puerto Rico, there are plenty of Air BnB types of things you could do when the kids aren't in school.

I sent my oldest daughter to San Juan on her own to study in a Spanish Immersion school so if you're not comfortable with Spanish, you could do something like that too. They had a program to help find low cost accommodations for students. Here's their web site: https://islalanguage.com/
Andy07
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I've been in Australia since 2022. I make less than I did in the states after taxes and the weakness of the AUD but I don't have some of the issues Hollywood mentioned. I came in on a Subclass 858 Global Talent visa. It's a few more hoops to jump through but if you're established in your field it's not impossible. I have had fully paid public healthcare and my kids have access to public schools since the day we landed.

Make sure you know why you want to move abroad, the destinations you listed all offer totally different things. Australia isn't great for experiencing a wide variety of cultures, but we love the lifestyle here. I swim in the Ocean before work and generally work less hours than I did in the States.

Happy to answer any particular questions you might have

HollywoodBQ
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Which suburb are you in? or, are you in NSW?
Also, I never heard of Subclass 858 but... Australia does change their immigration rules all the time.

Another example was bringing our dog. We had to do quarantine for a minimum of 30 days. Folks who came later said they didn't have to quarantine their dog for nearly as long.

EDIT: Now I see why you didn't have the school issues I did. This new Subclass 858 Visa basically makes you an Instant Permanent Resident.
https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-listing/global-talent-visa-858

Subclass 186 - Employer Nomination Scheme visa and the 457 Visa is what I used to move to Australia.
https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-listing/employer-nomination-scheme-186

This Subclass 858 sounds like a much better system.
What was your visa processing time like?
gggmann
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I spent a couple of years in China on a corporate expat assignment. It was a great experience, both culturally and financially. They had a couple of really good international schools where i was living (a US school and a Canadian school). Learned to speak Mandarin reasonably well - you learn a lot quicker when most of the population doesn't speak English.

I'm married to a Thai woman, so we spend a couple months a year in Thailand. I haven't stayed there longer than 2 months at any given time, but it still feels like a pseudo-expat experience due to having property, family, and friends there. We'll be increasing our stays to ~6 months/year once I retire in the next 6-8 years.

Just my opinion, but I recommend choosing a non-western country that has a non-english native language so that you and your family can have a more interesting cultural experience and pick up a new language.
putu
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My wife is from PR. I've been going to the island since the early 90s. We got married there as well. I like to think of myself as a TexaRican! We just spent 2 weeks there in July.

I feel blessed to have gotten to know the full island, not just the tourist traps.
"Cal (9-3) vs. Texas A&M (9-3). On the list of rare sights in Southern California, a team running the option -- as the Aggies like to do with QB Stephen McGee -- ranks right up there with real breasts and 12 inches of snow." Stewart Mandel CNNSI
Urban Country Boy
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Queensland.,
Saul Goodman
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Been living in New Zealand for close to 5 years. No regrets and really love our life here.

Hollywood makes some really good points.

We've seen some Americans make the move and not be able to adjust because they can't mentally detach from what they were used to in the US. Gotta embrace the differences, good and bad.

In a work context, people in this area of the world (NZ/Australia) are much more relaxed and dare I say, less ambitious generally. This works to your advantage having grown up in the US, as it will be easy for you to stand out and out hustle others.

We've found this to be a great place to raise our kids, and because you're so far away from other family, you really become a tight family unit. Also makes those visits with the rest of the family that much more special, and you appreciate each other more.

No plans at all to move back to the US at this stage.

All in all, we love living abroad.

YZ250
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gggmann, I'm curious what you do when you're over there for 2 months at a time. Are you working, volunteering, or treating it like a vacation? How did you set that up to be able to leave for two months at a time? I'm in a similar situation as you but in the Philippines. Sounds like a good way to transition to retirement.
gggmann
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AG
YZ250 said:

gggmann, I'm curious what you do when you're over there for 2 months at a time. Are you working, volunteering, or treating it like a vacation? How did you set that up to be able to leave for two months at a time? I'm in a similar situation as you but in the Philippines. Sounds like a good way to transition to retirement.
I'm L-I-V-I-N

Seriously, we spend most of the time visiting with family and doing things around the house. For example, this past summer I had to repair a clogged bathroom drain line, and we planted 400 rubber trees on our land (looking to plant 400 more next year).

We travel a bit around the region as well. We always spend time in Pattaya/Jomtien. This last trip we went to Siem Reap for a few days. We're talking about going to Koh Samui or Koh Chang next year.

I don't work too much while over there. I'll do some remote work as needed. I guess I'm fortunate that we don't really track time off and it's pretty flexible, especially if things are running well. There have been a couple of instances where I couldn't get away as long as I wanted, so I sent my wife and daughter a few weeks ahead and then met up w/ them in Thailand.

Hoyt Ag
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That's the life I am gonna create.


On another note, Samui is my favorite island. Going back in January for my 12th trip there.
RangerRick9211
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NWE said:

While I work for a small company now, I come from big big global companies I'd apply to for work abroad if my current company wasn't willing to sponsor me for.

I'm new to the logistics of it all though. If I applied to a role in UK, for example, wouldn't I get put near the bottom of the pile because of the added expense to sponsor me?


What about not being work dependent? Something like a Golden Visa.

Portugal is popular. It is pay-to-play, but has decent in-country requirements (14 days / year) and a 5 year seasoning period. But you and your kids conclude with EU citizenship. We've thought about it personally and for our daughter to have some fun options when she's older. Once we're RE, we'd like to spend long stints across the EU, so interests us!

Our Rich Journey on YouTube documents their process. Tons of forums specific to Portugal as well!
mefoghorn
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This podcast has useful insights on this subject
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/radical-personal-finance/id896153632?i=1000670870669
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