Dodgers Financial Scandal

4,789 Views | 64 Replies | Last: 10 days ago by Mathguy64
AggieEP
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There is a lot of discussion on this. Two real advantages.

1- If you defer boatloads of contracts like what the Dodgers have done, because of some of the language in the CBA it can free up additional cash today even though they still have to place the money in escrow (within the 2 year window). For example the Ohtani deferrals gets the Dodgers about 3 million dollars in today money they can use because of some wiggle room in how the deferred money is calculated.

2- If you are never planning on making good on these contracts because you know you are under investigation for fraud you could hypothetically go all in on the deferred contracts under the principle that it won't be your problem to solve once you cash out and leave.


I think the benefit to the Dodgers via point 1 is pretty small and doesn't really give much of a competitive advantage. It was silly how up in arms fans were about the very minimal benefit to the team for doing deferrals. However, the benefit is huge to the Dodgers (at least in present day) if the plan was always to default on everything and bail before the big bills started coming due.

The scandal (if what has been posted is really true) is that Walter has just been moving money b/w his companies loaning himself money and getting his companies to give him good deals (like their lucrative regional sports deal). The volume and frequency of how he did this seems to be sketchy at best and highly illegal at worst and some of the bills are coming due now and he might need to cash out and pay some of them. If it's all true, then baseball never had a Dodgers problem, they had a Walter problem that will soon be resolved.
AggieEP
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nereus said:

BMX Bandit said:


one caveat to this is that there is money that is set aside. every year, ownership has to put the discounted present value of the money owed into an account.


They have a 2 year grace period before they have to put in the present value of the deferred money. So deferred money earned for playing this season (2026) doesn't have to get put in until the end of the 2028 season.


This is worrisome if you are Ohtani to a certain extent because it's possible that most of the money he is owed has not been placed in escrow yet. In a worst case scenario, Walter might have taken on these contracts because he never intended to make good on them.
mavsfan4ever
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AG
Thanks. Agree the fraud angle actually makes sense. It's almost the only thing that makes sense bc there seems to be little to no benefit of deferring otherwise.

Do they get to invest the money that is set aside, or at least earn interest on it that they get to keep? Or does all interest get paid to the player? Guessing it goes to the player.

And when the contract details come out, the players are getting paid that amount in today's dollars correct? Meaning they will get paid that plus interest in the future?
nereus
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AG
The team owes the full amount due to the player on the date of the payment date. The account is invested and grows but there are investment restrictions so it has to be invested very conservatively. The team pays taxes on any interest/dividends earned inside that account. It is still the team's money, it is just in a restricted account.

If the escrow is short the Dodgers would have to make up the difference when it came time to pay the player. If the escrow has extra at the end, the Dodgers would get the remaining.

The escrow is really just a way to limit how badly the players can get screwed on a deal like this. If you play for 10 years with tons of deferred money and the team goes bankrupt right after the last year, the escrow account ensure that the player is only 30% screwed (because 7 of the 10 seasons would already have the money placed inside the account) as opposed to 100% screwed on any deferred money.
AggieEP
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Ohtani basically just hired the Dodgers to manage his investment portfolio at a guaranteed rate of return. As nereus posted, the money is required to be invested conservatively to mostly guarantee that the return is enough to cover what is owed. If the account grows more than expected the Dodgers would get to keep that money, but it's not likely to be a lucrative overage because of the nature of the escrow account.

At first it seemed that Ohtani's angle was mostly a tax benefit to taking his money later when he didn't live in California. Even with the tax issues, I still think Ohtani would have been much better to take his money now and just hire a good investment banker to grow his money if that was his goal. I make much more than 5% on my money and so it seems he's leaving a ton on the table by allowing the Dodgers to manage this for him.
Ciboag96
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Before I form an opinion, tell me, did he vote for Kamala or Trump? / Californians
rausr
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AG
DallasAg 94
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I think you may not fully understand the benefit to the Dodgers... AND Ohtani.

Ohtani is subject to 9% State Income Tax. Bybdeferring the money, he can wait until after he leaves California, which will allow him 9% savings.

For the Dodgers it is about CBT. Dodgers avoid the 50% CBT on anything they deferred. In addition is the Surcharge. 60% on anything $60M+

Too lazy to do the math, but the LAD would presumably owe MLB dollar-for-dollar on the Ohtani contract. You could argue where his addition falls on the Surcharge scale vs another player, but once you are over $60M in overage... it saves the team the money and allows them to build more around him.
AggieEP
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I understand, my investments have grown at around 20% for the past 5 years. I just think he could make out better in the market even after paying taxes in California.

The Dodgers are responsible for the 46 million AAV calculation in today's dollars towards their CBT. Not sure where you think they are getting a discount on that.

https://www.mlb.com/news/shohei-ohtani-dodgers-deal-deferrals-explained
EliteElectric
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IIRC Ca State IT is around 13% for the highest brackets
www.elitellp.net/

DallasAg 94
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I would double check, but IIRC, the deferred comp is the money the player gets. The team escrow money in certain restricted investments and pays the player from the account. There is usually and interest/growth projected.

I believe the CBT uses present-day value of deferred comp.

What will be interesting is if the LAD decide to file bankruptcy and all the differed comp becomes unsecured debt. If Walter's Insurance companies hold all the secure debt... could he file bankruptcy at some point... turn over the team to creditors which.. he owns?!

The Court could force the sell of the team to pay creditors which he owns or just turn it over to them.

This will be fun to watch. It could be enough of a distraction to the team that it impacts their postseason performance. Almost like the Black Sox. Tell Ohtani he is playing for $2M and not the $70M he signed for.
DallasAg 94
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AggieEP said:

I understand, my investments have grown at around 20% for the past 5 years. I just think he could make out better in the market even after paying taxes in California.

The Dodgers are responsible for the 46 million AAV calculation in today's dollars towards their CBT. Not sure where you think they are getting a discount on that.

https://www.mlb.com/news/shohei-ohtani-dodgers-deal-deferrals-explained



Today's dollars is present-day value.

He signed 10yr/$700M. AAV is $70M. Deferring $68M brings the CBT to $48M.

We could argue semantics... He signed a 10yr/$500 deal and the team pays him $50M/yr... but they aren't. At a minimum, they are $20M below the CBT, which would cost the Dodgers $20M in CBT based on average @60% plus surcharge over $60M.

Peanuts? Worth arguing about? Probably not, but signifant enough to transact, IMO.

ETA: And that is $20M/yr... for 10yrs. Or... $200M.
AggieEP
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EliteElectric said:

IIRC Ca State IT is around 13% for the highest brackets


Ohtani's tax situation is unique though because game checks are disbursed/taxes based on where the games are played. For Ohtani that includes a lot of California but not exclusively.

Assuming he maintains himself as a non resident of California. So yes 13% for home games and the other 20 or so games in California. His deferred money will be taxed as well at some point by someone.

I could be wrong, but hire a good money guy and I think he comes out ahead. Regardless he didn't choose that route and placed a lot of trust in the Dodgers.
Mathguy64
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AG
We are talking about a guy in Ohtani who allowed his interpreter to have full access to his bank account and to steal his money without even knowing it because he never looked at his bank accounts or had controls in place for them. Allegedly.

Something tells me Shohei has no clue about money and doesn't have anyone around him who does either.
EastSideAg2002
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Mathguy64 said:

We are talking about a guy in Ohtani who allowed his interpreter to have full access to his bank account and to steal his money without even knowing it because he never looked at his bank accounts or had controls in place for them. Allegedly.

Something tells me Shohei has no clue about money and doesn't have anyone around him who does either.

Or maybe he had the dodgers hold it in escrow so he couldnt gamble it all away.
AggieEP
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EastSideAg2002 said:

Mathguy64 said:

We are talking about a guy in Ohtani who allowed his interpreter to have full access to his bank account and to steal his money without even knowing it because he never looked at his bank accounts or had controls in place for them. Allegedly.

Something tells me Shohei has no clue about money and doesn't have anyone around him who does either.

Or maybe he had the dodgers hold it in escrow so he couldnt gamble it all away.


I've had that thought more than one time. Maybe he took the deferred contract to protect his earnings from his own stupidity.
aggietony2010
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AG
DallasAg 94 said:

AggieEP said:

I understand, my investments have grown at around 20% for the past 5 years. I just think he could make out better in the market even after paying taxes in California.

The Dodgers are responsible for the 46 million AAV calculation in today's dollars towards their CBT. Not sure where you think they are getting a discount on that.

https://www.mlb.com/news/shohei-ohtani-dodgers-deal-deferrals-explained



Today's dollars is present-day value.

He signed 10yr/$700M. AAV is $70M. Deferring $68M brings the CBT to $48M.

We could argue semantics... He signed a 10yr/$500 deal and the team pays him $50M/yr... but they aren't. At a minimum, they are $20M below the CBT, which would cost the Dodgers $20M in CBT based on average @60% plus surcharge over $60M.

Peanuts? Worth arguing about? Probably not, but signifant enough to transact, IMO.

ETA: And that is $20M/yr... for 10yrs. Or... $200M.


I think there are some discount rate differences too. AAV is calculated using the IRS mid-term rates for the October (I think) preceding the contract date.

Amount they have to escrow is linked to some other published rate which is typically a bit higher (and changes year to year, unlike the initial AAV calculation)
mavsfan4ever
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AG
People are saying different things. If ohtani doesn't get th interest and investment returns, then his 10/700 is in reality much much less than that. If he does get it, then there is no benefit to the dodgers.
nereus
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AG
mavsfan4ever said:

If ohtani doesn't get th interest and investment returns, then his 10/700 is in reality much much less than that.


Yes, it is almost certainly worth less than 700M in 2024 dollars. In theory we could end up in a period of deflation where it would end up being more than 700M total in todays dollars, but that is highly unlikely.

It was estimated that the contract was worth about $460 million at the time. That is why it counts as $46 million per year against the cap for luxury tax purposes.
mavsfan4ever
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AG
That's so weird. Thanks for the details.

ETA: weird that ohtani would agree to it.
AgSportsFan89
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AG
mavsfan4ever said:

That's so weird. Thanks for the details.

ETA: weird that ohtani would agree to it.


Almost like it was a bit of a gamble on his part...
DrZ
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AG
Ohtani agreed to it by blackmail
Dodgers said we know all about the betting. Sign this contract and we make it go away. Dont and you are done.
All I do is Nguyen
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If the Dodgers end up having to sell, and they lose Otani, I would be OK with that

No matter what!
Epstein didn't do, you know, the thing...
I'm the rare Astros/Cowboys/Spurs fan. We do exist
All I do is Nguyen
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Passan's full story on the Doyers

No matter what!
Epstein didn't do, you know, the thing...
I'm the rare Astros/Cowboys/Spurs fan. We do exist
All I do is Nguyen
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No matter what!
Epstein didn't do, you know, the thing...
I'm the rare Astros/Cowboys/Spurs fan. We do exist
fullback44
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AG
Any new updates on these cheaters ? MLB has head buried in the sand
3rd Coast
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AG
All I do is Nguyen
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New reports coming out

No matter what!
Epstein didn't do, you know, the thing...
I'm the rare Astros/Cowboys/Spurs fan. We do exist
All I do is Nguyen
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No matter what!
Epstein didn't do, you know, the thing...
I'm the rare Astros/Cowboys/Spurs fan. We do exist
Mathguy64
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AG
All I do is Nguyen said:

New reports coming out




That seems…I don't know…illegal? At the very least it's Clippers level sketchy trying to fake out the system.

I'm sure Manfred has top men on it. Top men.
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