Labor Talks/ Holdout Discussion

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AggieEP
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Since chatter about this topic is dispersed over like 3 different threads I think it makes more sense to consolidate the discussion in one place to stimulate more direct conversation without getting lost in the daily game threads and individual team discussions.

First, I'm on the record, and will remain so as being adamantly against the owners and Manfred for how they have approached negotiations this year. They have been blatantly dishonest about the reasons behind their proposals and their main goal early in the process has been to win over the fans to their side to pressure the players into accepting a salary cap.

https://www.nbcsports.com/mlb/news/baseball-union-head-criticizes-mlb-salary-cap-ad-campaign-says-claims-of-economic-woe-are-perverse

In a way it's brilliant to negotiate with the fans instead of the players, but it's in no way a good faith way to enter into negotiations by leveraging a third party against the players. Their most stunning success in this campaign has been the shockingly easy path they've had to convince fans that a cap would create "competitive balance." Gullible fans all over the country have now taken to this banner hoping for some sort of panacea by way of a cap that will help the downtrodden billionaires that own these teams compete. This is despite the real reason being publicly known as well, the owners think a cap will increase the value of their teams by introducing artificial cost control on labor.

The problem with the competitive balance argument is of course that the team with the 2nd highest payroll (Mets) is a last place team and that 3 divisions are led by teams with the 19th (Brewers) 23rd (Rays) and 25th (ChiSox) payrolls. Looking at the data we also see that out of the bottom 15 teams in the league in payroll only 3 of them are totally out of the race and more than 6 games under .500 while there are 4 such teams more than 6 games under among the top 15 payrolls. The standings reveal that baseball has actually already achieved 98% of the promised competitive balance that the owners are talking about.

The elephant in the room is the Dodgers, but I'm flabbergasted at how easily some people are swayed by recency bias and are ready to give the owners a cap. In the last 25 years we've had 16 different franchises win the World Series. The most any team has in the span is 3. And while yes the Dodgers remain heavy favorites to make a deep playoff run this year, history tells us that any well run franchise can win the World Series. All of these deferred bills will come due some day and we'll laugh at the Dodgers. All of these stars will get old and we'll laugh at the Dodgers.

All this to say that all the hand wringing about the Dodgers and the dreams of a cap fixing baseball's problems are simply bad takes when we look at the actual data. The game is healthy and competitive across all markets. The Juan Sotos and Shohei Ohtanis of the world are never going to sign to play in Tampa, and that's just fine, I wouldn't want to play in the Trop either. Maybe when they open a new stadium and start drawing more than 10K per game they'll have something to offer free agents to entice them.
An L of an Ag
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AG
Yeah, nice try Lasorda.

**** the Dodgers!
**** Manfred!
**** the owners!
Burn it all down NOW!!! MLB is long overdue for a salary cap.
scd88
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AG
Oh, hi Manfred. "But, but, but, it's LA...."
AustinAg2K
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I really didn't care if they have a salary cap or not, I just want the stupid MLB blackout rules ended.
AggieEP
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An L of an Ag said:

Yeah, nice try Lasorda.

**** the Dodgers!
**** Manfred!
**** the owners!
Burn it all down NOW!!! MLB is long overdue for a salary cap.

What do you think a salary cap accomplishes for baseball that it hasn't already accomplished with a variety of other tweaks? Did you even read my post? From a competitive balance standpoint MLB could not hope for more parity then they have this year. Even teams like the Twins who sold off pieces last year are on the upswing immediately and have an insane farm system ready to produce big league players.

This is just a simple and plain fact, baseball already has competitive balance and big spending doesn't guarantee squat. Just ask the Mets how it's worked out for them so far. There are a million ways to build a winning ball club right now.

All a salary cap does is guarantee the players get LESS money and the owners get MORE money. It's possible that a cap might screw over the Dodgers specifically, and I get it that a lot of fans would have fun watching that happen, but I think that eventuality is coming anyway. They are already paying several guys bit money to be sub-replacement players and those guys are not getting any younger. If we could just be patient, I feel like we'd see the Dodgers glorious downfall in about 2 years, but no, we're going to try and blow the sport up now because as your post so eloquently states, F the Dodgers.
AggieEP
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scd88 said:

Oh, hi Manfred. "But, but, but, it's LA...."

What does your post even mean?

I am staunchly in favor of the position exactly opposite of Manfred. I oppose the owner's/Manfred's crusade to impose a cap.

You are likely the exact type of fan Manfred and his owners have been targeting with their propaganda war.
AggieEP
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AustinAg2K said:

I really didn't care if they have a salary cap or not, I just want the stupid MLB blackout rules ended.

Kind of a separate issue, but yes hopefully a resolution is coming here as well soon. I move around a lot out of state so I'm less impacted by black out rules than others, but the antiquated territory based rules never really were good for baseball fans and now make almost no sense in the current streaming environment.
AustinAg2K
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AggieEP said:

AustinAg2K said:

I really didn't care if they have a salary cap or not, I just want the stupid MLB blackout rules ended.

Kind of a separate issue, but yes hopefully a resolution is coming here as well soon. I move around a lot out of state so I'm less impacted by black out rules than others, but the antiquated territory based rules never really were good for baseball fans and now make almost no sense in the current streaming environment.


I read last night that the latest proposal from the owners includes ending the blackouts, but it requires the Players to accept a hard salary cap. I'm pretty sure the owners included it just so they can tell fans they tried to end it but it's the players who are blocking it.
AustinAg2K
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I don't really think a salary cap necessarily ensures competitive balance. We heard about it all the time back in the late 90s when the Yankees were buying everyone, but since their run the league was incredibly balanced until the Dodgers latest run. I feel like you can buy a playoff team, but not necessarily a WS. Over the past 20 years we've seen plenty of smaller payrolls win it all.

I would like to see them come to with something to prevent tanking. Some ideas I've had:
1. You can't have the #1 pick two years in a row. You can't have a top 5 pick three years in a row. You can't have a top 10 pick five years in a row. Essentially, if you keep losing and getting high draft picks, and you still can't put together a good team, them you have a problem drafting and you shouldn't keep getting high draft picks.

2. Tie some part of revenue sharing to the standings. Incentivize winning. Teams that keep a small payroll and win should be rewarded more than those that lose.

3. If there is some sort of salary cap, allow teams to go over if they win. Essentially, if you go over the cap and don't make the playoffs have a penalty (maybe financial or maybe you lose draft picks or something), but if you do make the playoffs the penalty is waived.

I think a bigger problem than the salary cap is that there are teams who just don't care about winning. If every team really wanted to win, they wouldn't give their best players to the Dodgers and Yankees for peanuts. They would try to keep players who help them win.
JWinTX
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The majority of owners want a salary cap, but they have to deal with the big market owners that don't care if there is one or not. Unfortunately, those teams are who drive the value of MLB for TV deals.

I'd like the idea of a salary cap, but I'm not sure why I want one. In the NFL, a salary cap basically kills the roster beyond 4-5 players for continuity. But in the NHL, it seems to really work. I'll be the first to say that I don't understand how the NBA salary cap, but it's also worked.

I just know that the MLB World Series winners since the 1994 debacle ended, there have been the following champions:

Arizona, the Angels, the Marlins (2), Boston (4), White Sox, Cardinals (2), Phillies, Yankees (5), Giants (3), Royals, Cubs, the Astros (2*), Nationals, Dodgers (3), Braves (2), and the Rangers. 16 of the 30 teams got a title in that timeframe. Colorado, San Diego, Detroit, Cleveland, Toronto, the Mets, and Tampa Bay won Pennants.

But it's the fans in Baltimore, Cincinnati. Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Minnesota, Seattle, and the A's, that have nothing to show for their fandom over the last 35 years or longer. That doesn't seem like something a salary cap can fix, but I'm sure someone will argue that it should be able to fix it.

AustinAg2K
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I think any sort of salary cap needs to have some way to reduce the hit for players who are resigning with a team. Either have a hard cap on what the player's salary counts against the cap (say max $20 million if they have been with the team 7+ years, regardless of what the actual value of the contact is) or maybe only count a percentage of the salary if they have been with a team a given amount of time. Like if they've been with the team 7 years, you only count 75% of the salary. If you've been with them 10 years, it's only 50%, etc. I really hate when players jump from team to team every year. I like the guys who are lifers, and I hope that's something that doesn't go away with a salary cap.
NE PA Ag
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JWinTX said:

The majority of owners want a salary cap, but they have to deal with the big market owners that don't care if there is one or not. Unfortunately, those teams are who drive the value of MLB for TV deals.

I'd like the idea of a salary cap, but I'm not sure why I want one. In the NFL, a salary cap basically kills the roster beyond 4-5 players for continuity. But in the NHL, it seems to really work. I'll be the first to say that I don't understand how the NBA salary cap, but it's also worked.

I just know that the MLB World Series winners since the 1994 debacle ended, there have been the following champions:

Arizona, the Angels, the Marlins (2), Boston (4), White Sox, Cardinals (2), Phillies, Yankees (5), Giants (3), Royals, Cubs, the Astros (2*), Nationals, Dodgers (3), Braves (2), and the Rangers. 16 of the 30 teams got a title in that timeframe. Colorado, San Diego, Detroit, Cleveland, Toronto, the Mets, and Tampa Bay won Pennants.

But it's the fans in Baltimore, Cincinnati. Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Minnesota, Seattle, and the A's, that have nothing to show for their fandom over the last 35 years or longer. That doesn't seem like something a salary cap can fix, but I'm sure someone will argue that it should be able to fix it.




What's up with the asterisk?
AggieEP
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Yeah, part of why I hate the salary cap is what it's done to the NFL. Outside of the QB, you better be ready to watch your other favorite players be cut or traded. This practice has also cultivated a mindset amongst fans that we root for the team, not the players. Well, I'm sorry but part of what makes baseball special is that over a 20 year period we not only root for the Astros but for Bagwell, Biggio, Wagner and Berkman. They are people we get to know and become part of our community. Sure, sometimes players leave, but it's not because they were cut in their prime or because they couldn't be resigned because of the cap.

The NBA cap is a mess too, but at least all the teams are spending to the cap. I may be wrong, but if they set the cap at 250 million, there is no way that suddenly the Rays, Indians, Marlins etc. are going to spend 250 million on their rosters. Nope, those teams will just wait until the big spending teams cap out and then try to lowball any remaining free agents.
AustinAg2K
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NE PA Ag said:

JWinTX said:

The majority of owners want a salary cap, but they have to deal with the big market owners that don't care if there is one or not. Unfortunately, those teams are who drive the value of MLB for TV deals.

I'd like the idea of a salary cap, but I'm not sure why I want one. In the NFL, a salary cap basically kills the roster beyond 4-5 players for continuity. But in the NHL, it seems to really work. I'll be the first to say that I don't understand how the NBA salary cap, but it's also worked.

I just know that the MLB World Series winners since the 1994 debacle ended, there have been the following champions:

Arizona, the Angels, the Marlins (2), Boston (4), White Sox, Cardinals (2), Phillies, Yankees (5), Giants (3), Royals, Cubs, the Astros (2*), Nationals, Dodgers (3), Braves (2), and the Rangers. 16 of the 30 teams got a title in that timeframe. Colorado, San Diego, Detroit, Cleveland, Toronto, the Mets, and Tampa Bay won Pennants.

But it's the fans in Baltimore, Cincinnati. Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Minnesota, Seattle, and the A's, that have nothing to show for their fandom over the last 35 years or longer. That doesn't seem like something a salary cap can fix, but I'm sure someone will argue that it should be able to fix it.




What's up with the asterisk?


The Asterisk is because we should have won 4.
AustinAg2K
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I know the owners will never agree to it, but there needs to be some sort of "punishment" for teams that can't even make the playoffs at least once a decade. You can't do relegation because cities pay for the stadiums, and they won't pay if it might end up a billion dollar minor league stadium. Maybe have MLB take over running the team for some time. Sounds crazy, but they have to prevent tanking. If you can't afford to field a competitive team, you don't deserve to have a team.
AggieEP
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The current punishment in place is that teams that take revenue sharing money cannot pick in the top 10 two years in a row.

You're talking more about relegation, but I think the more critical thing is to figure out how to convince the cheap ass owners to actually invest in their clubs. The punishment needs to exist for teams that spend more than 2 straight years 50 million under the luxury tax. 1 year can be defended if you have a bunch of money fall off, but within two years you should be back up at a competitive level of spending.

All of this bellyaching about the Dodgers, but there are probably 15 teams in the league that wouldn't have taken Skubal for free because the owners wouldn't sign off on adding the 10 million more he's owed this year. Not 15 tax paying teams, teams with room. They just refuse to spend. And yet somehow we're to believe that a salary cap will change these owners.
W
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AG
I don't think data going back 30 years is relevant to this discussion

just focus on the last 10 years when the mega-contracts took off to insane levels

how many world series champions or runner-ups were from small or medium markets? Or outside the top 10 in payroll the year they played in the world series?

by the way...the 2019 Nationals and 2023 Rangers were top 10 payroll teams

dixie whiskey
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AG
sorry this is a long post. rather than go back and forth across all this stuff i figured i'd just lay it all out in one go. if you don't want to read it, i don't blame you. it mostly sucks anyway.

it's possible to recognize that manfred is a POS that's bad for baseball and the collective owners of mlb franchises are generally the worst bunch of owners out of all the major sports, while still believing that a salary cap system is ultimately what's best for the game. i'm fine with my desired outcome aligning with that of the owners, albeit for very different reasons… it would be silly to say "well i did want this until i found out how much the owners wanted it too so ive changed my stance and now want to stick with the system that has allowed the dodgers to quite literally construct their own all star team"

one of the biggest benefits to a salary cap is that it comes with a salary floor. the current proposal would require something like half of the league to increase their spending, in many cases by quite a bit. the floor would honestly probably contribute more to competitive balance than the cap would, but the cap is still something needed.

yes, the mets spent a lot of money to suck. the thing is, that's not really relevant here because nobody is saying that money is the only ingredient at play to win a title, and nobody is saying poor teams can't have success, nor are they saying rich teams can't crap the bed. none of that changes the fact that money is AN advantage. not the only advantage, but it definitely matters. a brilliant GM is more likely to win it all when he has dodgers money at his disposal than when he has marlins money. the problem is more complex than can be solved entirely by a cap/floor but it's still a big part of it.

i think we can all agree at least that even with the scumbag owners of some of the smaller market team, that most teams can't spend the kind of money the dodgers are spending and survive. while yes, billionaires have enough money, it's silly to believe they're going to operate their franchises at a loss while personally bankrolling billion dollar rosters on teams like the royals. there is for sure a big issue with many owners under spending and that has to change. that doesn't mean they can spend with the dodgers.

one of the biggest reasons player salaries have become so out of control isn't that there's all sorts of teams competing with offers to the best free agents, it's because the large market teams are able to guarantee they'll only have to compete with 2 or 3 other teams for the best FAs if they price the rest of the league out by offering absurd contracts. and consider the trade deadline, with all the teams still in it looking to improve at the deadline, it even shows itself in the trade market. a guy like skubal becomes available, and every team would love to have him, but realistically only 2 or 3 teams are willing to realistically able to trade for him. not because of the prospects anyone has or doesn't have, but because it only makes sense to offer your farm system for a guy like that if you think you can sign him long term. and the fact is that elite starters at that level have had their salaries so inflated that 85% of the league can't afford to sign a guy like skubal. so that same 85% isn't going to give up their top farm talent when they know he would be a rental. in the past it was harder for other teams but it was still possible for them to sign guys like that. things have absolutely changed as the disparity between the richest and poorest markets has increased.

there are other issues that need to be addressed in these negotiations. i suppose ill get the other 2 dodgers related ones out of the way first… there needs to be rules that prevent these silly contracts that payment can be deferred on for years. honestly when this became such a big deal i had no idea it was even an option to begin with and i think there were GMs that were surprised as much as i was. its insane, this one should be pretty obvious so i dont think much else needs to be said on it.

they have to figure out a better way for japanese free agents to be able to transition to mlb without turning japan into nothing but a farm system for 2 or 3 west coast teams. this wasn't really an issue in the past because japan wasn't producing the level of talent that they obviously are now. i understand that because of the opportunities in japan being pretty good for these guys, the league has tried to treat them as regular free agents that aren't subject to a draft or anything like that. the argument has always been well they'll just go back to japan if we tell them they can't pick their teams… at this point the league has to call their bluff and do what's best for the league. it's absurd that the best american players have to go through a draft but we let the best japanese players, who suddenly have become some of the best on the planet, to have the ability (referring to the most elite japanese players) to come here and never be truly made available to any teams besides la and la and maaaaaaybe seattle but that's not even really a thing anymore. why wouldn't the dodgers be willing to move their best prospects for all star players, they effectively have all of japan as their secondary farm system so even if they weren't run well, which they are, they'd be in great shape because there would never be a time when all 3 of their abilities to improve- free agent spending, their farm system, and japan- all ran dry. if we have to dare some japanese stars to pass on the money they could make here as a trade off for installing a variation of a draft or fair system, so be it.

i know this is long, but this is the last one- and it's not about the dodgers finally. the new agreement has to find a way to incentivize free agents to resign with their current teams. i think this is something the nba handled pretty well.. there's a real incentive for stars to resign with the extra max year available, and in many cases it's worked to keep them on the home team. at the same time, it's not such an overwhelming advantage that it becomes unrealistic for anyone to elect to choose to leave because the financial implications of doing so would be too extreme. it's a pretty good balance all things considered.

the way it is now just isnt working. if you're not a fan of a small handful of teams, it's at the point where having a young talented star player comes with the knowledge that if he's too good, that come free agency, he will be gone. it's become so inevitable that fans don't even hope for a miracle anymore in many cases and they're looking at trade packages 2 years before that free agency hits. this may be the worst of all these issues imo, when the team you root for can't keep the talent that they developed through their system and that grew up on that team, fans naturally will avoid becoming too attached to players.. and it's easy to root for an ever changing roster when you're winning, but when your team sucks, it's the attachment to specific players that maintains the fans interest and keeps them as fans. if you can't keep fans as a franchise through your down years, that's not a good sign for the team or the league. i think we're starting to see this manifest already as these extreme conditions are pretty new, and it's only gonna get worse if not addressed. on this one i don't know the answer but i know they have to find one

real quick re: the nfl cap, having a cap isn't the problem in the nfl. the problem is that the cap is too low (for this, the owners deserve all the blame) and doesn't expand with player salaries at the rate it should. still, it's prevented teams from dominating purely on the basis of having big market money.

if you read this far, i'm done now. feel free to tear all these points apart and tell me how it's actually a good thing the dodgers can do what they are doing and that the system should stay the same because the mets suck and because the marlins owners have historically been allowed to pretend miami is nothing but a sparsely populated small town in the middle of nowhere that was once prosperous but when all the cocaine factories up and left for oklahoma meth, the whole town fell apart and the only people who stayed are the ones who had no choice
AggieEP
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Thanks for your post, you brought up a couple of really good points.

First, I agree that whatever comes out of these negotiations, we need a salary floor. But, I also think that if there is a floor it needs to be pretty darn close to what ever the cap/tax line is. As you mention (and I agree) money is a tool/advantage. So if the Dodgers are still spending 245 million and the Rays are sitting at the floor and it's 171 million (the proposed numbers) that's still a gap that allows the Dodgers to have 2/3 extra good/great players that the Rays don't. This is where I get annoyed with the "cap solves everything" arguments because if you still have an 80 million dollar gap, all you've done is marginally changed the dynamic between the teams willing to spend and the teams not willing to spend.

I also agree that there does need to be a mechanism that gives the team that drafted and developed a player (or signed for international FAs) some sort of advantage in keeping that player. I wouldn't want the player trapped in a city, he should be able to leave if he wants when he is a FA, but I think there should be something that helps create the conditions that encourage players to be one franchise guys. The issue is... how do you do this. The NBA model only works because Max contracts are set as a % of the cap and with only 5 starters, that means you can give a big share (25-30%) to your stars with the team the player is on having the ability to also give an extra year (only up to 5 years). I'd argue though that with roster sizes of 26 in MLB, the same system would do one of two things. Either it would crater the earning power of all players (what happened in the NHL) or it would create an even more extreme version of what the NBA has by having the haves (those on max deals eating up like 60% of the cap for like 3 guys) and then an entire team full of guys forced to take under market deals because either teams are capped or refuse to spend.

Finally, I disagree with you completely IRT deferred money. We all laughed at the Mets for years for the asinine deferred deal they gave Bobby Bonilla. We'll all laugh at the Dodgers too when they are still paying this roster years from now. Sure it is giving them a slight present day advantage (that any other team could also do) but it comes with extreme risk down the line when these payments come due that it will impact baseball operations in the future. Even though Ohtani only takes a 2 million dollar annual salary, the Dodgers still have to put the other 44 million in today's dollars in an escrow account. They still have to have the 46 million on hand in today's dollars, it's not some magic trick. The 10 year 700 million number for Ohtani is really just a 10 year 460 million dollar deal with Ohtani trusting the Dodgers to invest 440 million for him and taking a guaranteed return of 240 million over time. I'd argue that Ohtani could likely do better hiring someone (not a thief or gambler) to manage his money, but a guaranteed return of 240 million is not nothing. Fans only get mad at the deferred money because the beat writers have made it seem as if this is some diabolically method to circumvent the luxury tax, when all it is really is an agent wanting to make it seem like he got his client a deal that he didn't really get. Ohtani is on a 10 year 460 million dollar deal, period. All he did is trust the Dodgers to invest some of that, nothing else nefarious here to get upset about.


(Separately, some of you should look at what happened in the NHL, the best players are rarely the highest paid on their team because the cap is such a low number that pretty much all players sacrifice individual paydays so that GMs can build out strong rosters. This happened because the owners in the NHL were willing to basically kill hockey in order to get the harsh cap they got. It's kind of the nightmare scenario that baseball players think about when considering capped offers from the owners)
AggieEP
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Also, adding separately so it's not trapped in a TLDR style post.

I think the only thing baseball needs to do in order to fix the Dodgers problem is make the tax penalties even more punitive for egregious and repeat violators. There are already measures in place to take away draft picks and international bonus money, maybe we need something even more extreme and start taking away an extra draft pick each consecutive year a team is above the tax line. Even the Dodgers can't survive once they are losing 4-5 picks in a draft. Maybe also increase the tax percentage on dollars spent over the tax line, and you've probably got a system in place now that essentially is a cap, but allows the flexibility for a team to exceed it occasionally in pursuit of winning.
CCAg95
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AG
Isn't part of the problem the sweetheart TV deal the dodgers received coming out of bankruptcy that allowed them to not share money? If that did not exist they would not be spending such money and therefore we would not be in such a dire scenario.
Noble07
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AG
CCAg95 said:

Isn't part of the problem the sweetheart TV deal the dodgers received coming out of bankruptcy that allowed them to not share money? If that did not exist they would not be spending such money and therefore we would not be in such a dire scenario.

+1. And I think they signed this media deal before cable TV revenue took a complete dive. Unless MLB changes the media rights, the Dodgers have a huge advantage in their media deal until it expires in 2038.

In the NFL the Packers get the same TV revenue as the Cowboys.

I pay $20/month to get the Astros streaming channel. I've come to realize that a lot of kids on my son's baseball team don't watch the Astros because they don't have access to the games. MLB is losing out on lifelong fans.
12Power
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Y'all make a lot of good points, especially pointing out the advantages that the Dodgers have. Why wouldn't any other team have the best farm system if they could just buy a player versus having to trade away their minor league players. I like the draft pick penalty idea. Like you said, they have the farm system, buy the all stars and get the Japanese. I think the foreign players should have to enter MLB through the draft. If they do not want to go to the team that drafted them and stay home, then they can't try MLB again for 5 years.
W
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AG
another (small) way to improve competitive balance...

go ahead and expand the playoffs again to 8 teams per league...and force every team to play in a 3-game wildcard series

it would slightly increase the chances of one of the big spenders getting upset
South Platte
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I'm for a hard salary cap only if the owners have a hard cap on ticket prices. Give the money back to the people. Don't make it difficult for a family to afford a trip to the ballpark. Game experiences are fun, regardless of the win-loss outcome.

The above will never happen.

And I don't feel hitters are remotely as skilled as the teams I watched 20 years ago, so if they are expecting us to pay more for higher quality, good luck with that. Watching teams strikeout 15 times a game makes for a questionable product.
AggieEP
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South Platte said:

I'm for a hard salary cap only if the owners have a hard cap on ticket prices. Give the money back to the people. Don't make it difficult for a family to afford a trip to the ballpark. Game experiences are fun, regardless of the win-loss outcome.

The above will never happen.

And I don't feel hitters are remotely as skilled as the teams I watched 20 years ago, so if they are expecting us to pay more for higher quality, good luck with that. Watching teams strikeout 15 times a game makes for a questionable product.


Here we're 100% on the same page. The whiny owners have no intent to make games more affordable even if they get a cap in place.

Also the phenomenon you are noticing is caused (IMO) by the proliferation of travel ball (shrinks the talent pool down before kids even hit puberty) and by scouts who fall in love with tools over skill. It's great for a guy to be 6'5'' with light tower power and elite exit velos, but not that great if he can't make contact consistently enough for those tools to matter.
South Platte
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AggieEP said:

South Platte said:

I'm for a hard salary cap only if the owners have a hard cap on ticket prices. Give the money back to the people. Don't make it difficult for a family to afford a trip to the ballpark. Game experiences are fun, regardless of the win-loss outcome.

The above will never happen.

And I don't feel hitters are remotely as skilled as the teams I watched 20 years ago, so if they are expecting us to pay more for higher quality, good luck with that. Watching teams strikeout 15 times a game makes for a questionable product.


Here we're 100% on the same page. The whiny owners have no intent to make games more affordable even if they get a cap in place.

Also the phenomenon you are noticing is caused (IMO) by the proliferation of travel ball (shrinks the talent pool down before kids even hit puberty) and by scouts who fall in love with tools over skill. It's great for a guy to be 6'5'' with light tower power and elite exit velos, but not that great if he can't make contact consistently enough for those tools to matter.

HA! Finally. Now I just have to get you over the HGH hump.
TarponChaser
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I don't know the whole solution but every other pro league has a salary cap and that works for them. I love baseball but it should not be an outlier.
AggieEP
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TarponChaser said:

I don't know the whole solution but every other pro league has a salary cap and that works for the OWNERS. I love baseball but it should not be an outlier.


FIFY

Do you really think NHL players like taking under market deals because of the cap? The owners essentially gambled on killing the sport of hockey completely to force a cap.

The NBA cap is a mess right now. Payton Watson is a good basketball player and no one can sign him because everyone is capped out. His own team can't even really retain him because of the tax ramifications.

And IMO, the NFL cap has ruined the sport completely. QBs eat up so much of the cap that now pretty much all teams with a good QB suck at all other positions. What the NFL calls parity is really just 30 bad and flawed teams battling to be the least bad and flawed team.
pattybrhg
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Since you mention recency bias, it's interesting that you mention this year's standings in a vacuum. Two of those teams are only making the playoffs at about a once in a decade clip. Celebrating a playoff run only to watch all of your favorite players get sold off to stay the rebuild for another 8-10 years down the road creates a very different fan base, attendance level, and revenue structure. I know someone else mentioned the EPL and relegation. That's a big no go from the owners, but what i think does parallel is that you have a pretty good idea what a healthy chunk of the playoff teams will be each year. They may not win it every year for sure, but annual playoff teams have very different abilities than the pump and dumps. The top of the table teams eat well at the MLB teams similar to the EPL.

Your point is solid about the number of winners of the World Series, but ball clubs don't do great with the fans when they have to run a pump and dump development plan because it's just not practical to compete year in and year out.

Sure, I'm a little scarred by the Yankees buying every pricey free agent in the 90s and 2000s. What's worse was that they could do that, and even when a player didn't live up to their contract, they could still absorb it and go sign another big name. The smaller market teams don't have the same risk threshold and can be sunk by a really bad contract or two.
AggieEP
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Cleveland, Milwaukee and Tampa Bay are all bottom half payroll teams and have been as consistently good in the last 10 years as anyone.

Brewers in the playoffs 7 out of 10 years
Guardians 5 out of 10 years
Rays 5 out of 10 years

Even Oakland has made the playoffs 7 times in the last 15 years.

I'm not sure what teams you are talking about and saying that my post includes receny bias. It's just a fact that lower budget teams also make the playoffs every year. The Astros and Braves are more upper middle class than high budget and they've both been really good the last 10 years as well.

IRT dumping players, the Rays and Guardians have been pretty bad at this part recently. The real question is if it's an absolute necessity or if their cheap ass owner's just prefer to do business that way. Which is the real heart of my belief on this issue. I think that we're being misled by billionaires here who like to cry poor and pretend they can't hold on to stars for imaginary reasons. Sure, I don't think Tampa can operate like the Dodgers, but there's no reason they couldn't operate like the Braves or Astros. And as you mention, doing so would likely stimulate far more fan interest when you keep a core together. Adding a cap isn't suddenly going to turn these owner's into different people.

pattybrhg
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In all fairness your initial post mentioned the division leaders as points:
CHW: playoffs in 2021, a cluster of 2000, 05, and 08, and then nothing back to 1993.
Milwaukee: 5/10 sure but 1/10 before that and then nothing from 1982-2010. That sure looks like a lot of recency being different from the norm.
Tampa I think we're all going to agree on about the success from a small market team - and in the spendy AL East neighborhood no less.

The Rays have sold off but at least have come back strong each time. Kansas City and the Marlins have seen a lot more of the win big and then sell the farm.

The Astros are a whole other discussion. No one in the history of baseball up to that point went into tank hard mode as hard and long as they did to acquire draft capital. They're a lot of why these tank and floor discussions started in the first place - especially after it worked. What they did to tank that hard as a non very non- small market team was especially concerning.
AggieEP
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Fair enough, I think we can all at least partially agree though that smaller market teams have had a clear path to compete for playoff spots in recent history. This undermines the idea that baseball lacks competitive balance. What baseball really lacks IMO is 30 owners committed to winning which should be the standard when a franchise goes up for sale. Instead the franchises have gone to the highest bidders and the motivations of these ownership groups have sometimes run counter to building long term sustainable winning teams.

When the Red Sox traded Mookie Betts for pennies on the dollar to avoid extending him that was a huge warning sign of things to come from that ownership group. Henry and his investors have been clear that making money is their priority and they've run the team like that despite the inherent advantages the Sox should have.

https://www.overthemonster.com/2024/10/28/24281650/the-red-sox-are-the-fifth-cheapest-team-in-baseball

I think it's incumbent on all of us to consider if baseball has a fundamental economics problem that can only be solved with a cap, or if these same owners telling us that a cap is needed are actually the real problem enabling the Dodgers to acquire all this talent.
W
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AG
the Mookie Betts situation is another example of what's wrong with MLB

there is no mercy for the owners when a mega-contract goes south

before the Betts trade... the Red Sox had been burned badly by several big contracts -- primarily to starting pitchers -- that they just had to eat. And the owners / management said no more (for a few years)

by the way...it was a very smart move to let Bogaerts walk
W
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AG
also...large market teams can handle (or absorb the effects) of a bad mega-contract better than small market teams

the Bryant contract has crippled the Rockies
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