AgRyan04 said:

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Farmer1906 said:

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Happy for Wags. The only possibly reason not to vote for Ichiro is because you know he's a lock so you pick someone else to try and keep them on the ballot.

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I think you're giving too much credit. I feel like we've seen over the years that some of the voters are just full blown dumbasses.

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You're right.

not impressed besides Ichiro. the best players still sit outside the hall.

BCSWguru said:

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not impressed besides Ichiro. the best players still sit outside the hall.

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Yes, those guys did a lot for baseball in the years where baseball really needed a boost. Everybody knew what was going on.

Amen

3.83 career ERA is 1st ballot ?

lolol

Is CC Sabathia more deserving than Andy Pettitte?


https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/43414862/mlb-baseball-hall-fame-2025-voting-winners-losers-ichiro-suzuki-cc-sabathia-billy-wagner-carlos-beltran

Farmer1906 said:

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Happy for Wags. The only possibly reason not to vote for Ichiro is because you know he's a lock so you pick someone else to try and keep them on the ballot.

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Probably some NY writer who didn't want another unanimous entry

AgRyan04 said:

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Good for Wagner.....dude was awesome!

I still don't get Sabathia. At all.

Not only that but as a first ballot guy? Ryne Friggin' Sandberg had to wait until his third year on the ballot in 2005 even though everyone knew he was a HOFer back in 1990.

The Veterans Committee is going to be busy filling in all the guys equal or better than Sabathia.

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If Sandberg was a Yankee he'd be first ballot.
Its Yankee privilege.

The Hall of Fame is so polluted with the veteran's committee selecting players like Harold Baines and then the selective inclusion/exclusion of steroid users. If you use the "well so and so is in" argument, you can make the case for about 50 players. This is about the least exciting class I can remember. Wagner doesn't do it for me. I think the bar for relievers should be about Mariano Rivera and nobody else from my lifetime (Dennis Eckersley was a starter with 200 wins btw, so he doesn't count). Sabathia is meh. He's on the cusp. He's also the beneficiary of being a former Yankee. Ichiro was a no-brainer and it's stupid that someone voted no.

Can you imagine being the lone a-hole who didn't vote for Ichiro?

I'm so principled that no one should be unanimous that I'm going to be the guy who says no.

That guy should definitely lose his voting privileges.

the lone holdout has to be a Yankees homer. I used to hold the Hall in high regard, but its just another award these days. Nobody will be talking about most of these people 20 years from now.

AgRyan04 said:

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hawk1689 said:

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The Hall of Fame is so polluted with the veteran's committee selecting players like Harold Baines and then the selective inclusion/exclusion of steroid users. If you use the "well so and so is in" argument, you can make the case for about 50 players. This is about the least exciting class I can remember. Wagner doesn't do it for me. I think the bar for relievers should be about Mariano Rivera and nobody else from my lifetime (Dennis Eckersley was a starter with 200 wins btw, so he doesn't count). Sabathia is meh. He's on the cusp. He's also the beneficiary of being a former Yankee. Ichiro was a no-brainer and it's stupid that someone voted no.

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So only one reliever in the history of the sport is worthy? Would Ruth be the only outfielder in your HOF?

I'm all for being more selective but that might be a bit too tight.

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I said in my lifetime. I'm 43. During that time frame, pitchers have been tailored to pitch an inning or less in most situations. The statistic of a "save" was fabricated to promote the relief pitcher, rather than capturing his effectiveness. In many cases, managers select a pitcher based on save parameters rather than a true situational need. Most of these guys were just failed starters. Trevor Hoffman was never a more valuable contributor than Jake Peavy, Kevin Brown, or Andy Benes. You could say the same thing about Wagner with regards to Shane Reynolds, Roy Oswalt, or Mike Hampton. I'd be willing to listen to arguments for Goose Gossage, but he was mostly before my time.

hawk1689 said:

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AgRyan04 said:

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hawk1689 said:

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The Hall of Fame is so polluted with the veteran's committee selecting players like Harold Baines and then the selective inclusion/exclusion of steroid users. If you use the "well so and so is in" argument, you can make the case for about 50 players. This is about the least exciting class I can remember. Wagner doesn't do it for me. I think the bar for relievers should be about Mariano Rivera and nobody else from my lifetime (Dennis Eckersley was a starter with 200 wins btw, so he doesn't count). Sabathia is meh. He's on the cusp. He's also the beneficiary of being a former Yankee. Ichiro was a no-brainer and it's stupid that someone voted no.

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So only one reliever in the history of the sport is worthy? Would Ruth be the only outfielder in your HOF?

I'm all for being more selective but that might be a bit too tight.

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I said in my lifetime. I'm 43. During that time frame, pitchers have been tailored to pitch an inning or less in most situations. The statistic of a "save" was fabricated to promote the relief pitcher, rather than capturing his effectiveness. In many cases, managers select a pitcher based on save parameters rather than a true situational need. Most of these guys were just failed starters. Trevor Hoffman was never a more valuable contributor than Jake Peavy, Kevin Brown, or Andy Benes. You could say the same thing about Wagner with regards to Shane Reynolds, Roy Oswalt, or Mike Hampton. I'd be willing to listen to arguments for Goose Gossage, but he was mostly before my time.

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I don't think Gossage, Rollie Fingers, Lee Smith, or Bruce Sutter hold a candle to Rivera so that was my leap there. Those are the primary relievers I think of in the HOF.

As great as Rivera was as a closer I'd argue that had Wagner been with the Yankees of that era he'd have stats that blow Rivera away and if Rivera had been an Astro his stats are nowhere close to Wags.

People sell Wags short because the Astros weren't that great during his career and he never had the postseason opportunities.

Sabathia has pretty good counting stats which is the only reason he is getting in... well that and the Yankees bias and the fact that he's super likable as a person.

But, realistically he's just another testament to the idiotic worship of round numbers and longevity in baseball by the HOF.

Sabathia's last 7 years, he compiled a 8.7 WAR total (better than I would have thought actually) and 60 wins against 59 losses with a 4.33 ERA.

His first 12 years he compiled 52 WAR and 191 wins, to me that first 12 years is his hall of fame resume when he was a really good pitcher. But he's not getting in with 191 wins, so those 60 wins the last 7 years get him to 250 and now he's at a big round number that the writers like. Those 7 years as a very average pitcher clinched his spot in the hall... so stupid.

There are probably 50 pitchers better than Sabathia that will never sniff the hall because they won't hit magic numbers.

Here's next year's first timers....I would say none of them are HOFers, but what do I know anymore

They're all NOs for me too, but give some love to Edwin Encarnacion. From 2012-2017 he was damn good. Almost 40 HR per year.

AgRyan04 said:

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Here's next year's first timers....I would say none of them are HOFers, but what do I know anymore

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Yeah, that's a whole bunch of "no" for me dog.

I'm a long time Markakas fan, hope he at least gets some consideration, although it's hard to see him being a HOF player.

I honestly thought porcello was still pitching for the Angels

TarponChaser said:

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As great as Rivera was as a closer I'd argue that had Wagner been with the Yankees of that era he'd have stats that blow Rivera away and if Rivera had been an Astro his stats are nowhere close to Wags.

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Huh? ERA+ standardizes ballpark effects and Rivera is still clearly better than Wagner (ERA+ 205 vs. 187)--despite pitching nearly 400 more innings and pitching until he was 43, five years later than Wagner hung it up.

And that's before you even consider that Rivera had like an entire season's worth of post-season appearances, during which he was even BETTER than his best of all time baseline.

Billy Wagner, on the other hand, had a post-season ERA of 10+.

Would Wagner have more saves on a better team, sure, but that doesn't mean that he holds a candle to Rivera.

YokelRidesAgain said:

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TarponChaser said:

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As great as Rivera was as a closer I'd argue that had Wagner been with the Yankees of that era he'd have stats that blow Rivera away and if Rivera had been an Astro his stats are nowhere close to Wags.

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Huh? ERA+ standardizes ballpark effects and Rivera is still clearly better than Wagner (ERA+ 205 vs. 187)--despite pitching nearly 400 more innings and pitching until he was 43, five years later than Wagner hung it up.

And that's before you even consider that Rivera had like an entire season's worth of post-season appearances, during which he was even BETTER than his best of all time baseline.

Billy Wagner, on the other hand, had a post-season ERA of 10+.

Would Wagner have more saves on a better team, sure, but that doesn't mean that he holds a candle to Rivera.

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ERA+ is not real. You can't truly standardize for ballparks. Wags has a better career BAA and more K/9. His postseason ERA is also bloated by one bad outing in a small sample size.

Don't get me wrong, Rivera was amazing but a lot can be attributed to the team around him and vice versa.

Thinking about Mariano's post season greatness, I just remembered that Craig Counsell was on base for both Edgar Renteria (1997) and Luis Gonzalez's (2001) G7 walk-offs

TarponChaser said:

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ERA+ is not real. You can't truly standardize for ballparks. Wags has a better career BAA and more K/9. His postseason ERA is also bloated by one bad outing in a small sample size.

Don't get me wrong, Rivera was amazing but a lot can be attributed to the team around him and vice versa.

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No stat is perfect, but global ratings are more valuable than cherry-picked stats.

For example, Wagner also gave up more walks and home runs than Mariano in 380 less innings pitched.

And apart from volume stats like saves, I'm not sure what being on the Yankees has to do with Rivera being statistically superior to every reliever, ever.

I'm sorry, but any argument that another relief pitcher was Mariano's equal is just a terrible take.

I agree. Wagner was awesome, but he and everyone else are not Rivera.

For me, I would be okay if you said the only reliever we let into the hall is Rivera. Once you start adding Hoffman, Smith, and the next level down - no way Wagner isn't in the group.

Farmer1906 said:

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I agree. Wagner was awesome, but he and everyone else are not Rivera.

For me, I would be okay if you said the only reliever we let into the hall is Rivera. Once you start adding Hoffman, Smith, and the next level down - no way Wagner isn't in the group.

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Tend to agree. Of the more or less "pure" relievers (excluding Eckersley, Smoltz, etc.), my personal conception of the Hall would include Rivera, Hoyt Wilhelm, Goose Gossage, and no one else.

Wagner is more similar than different when compared to Hoffman in quality, and both are clearly better than Lee Smith and Bruce Sutter.