Dick Allen and Dave Parker: Hall of Fame

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YokelRidesAgain
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8:23p, 12/8/24
AG
Newly elected by Veterans Committee:

Dick Allen, who was criminally overlooked by the writers and Veterans Committees alike. Top 25 all time in OPS+. Crying shame that he couldn't get in during his lifetime (he missed election in 2014 by one vote, prior to his death in 2020).

Dave Parker, 1978 NL MVP whose career fizzled due to his passion for nose candy, also elected. The MVP and 2700 hits helped, having friends on the committee likely helped more.

Parker is battling Parkinson's disease and looked to be in pretty rough shape during his interview this evening. If they were going to elect him to the Hall, at least they did it while he is still alive.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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jja79
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9:18p, 12/8/24
AG
Richie Allen played in the first MLB game I ever attended in 1964. A different kind of guy but a power hitting machine.
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AgRyan04
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10:33p, 12/8/24
This just keeps pushing the door further open for some underrated greats of my childhood like future HOFers Moises Alou, Carlos Beltran, Jeff Kent, Carlos Delgado, Andres Galarraga, and Lance Berkman
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Cobra39
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11:49p, 12/8/24
I am in *****es.

Cobra39
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BCSWguru
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In reply to Cobra39 • 8:30a, 12/9/24
Screen name checks out.

But I also feel this opens the door for a whole slew of players.
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AgRyan04
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In reply to Cobra39 • 9:08a, 12/9/24
Cobra39 said:
I am in *****es.

Cobra39


POTD!
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Cobra39
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In reply to BCSWguru • 12:01p, 12/9/24
BCSWguru said:
Screen name checks out.

But I also feel this opens the door for a whole slew of players.
Disagree. If there was a door opened, it was a while back.......when Harold Baines, Edgar Martinez, George Foster (did he get in?), Jim Rice.....and then Tony Perez earlier than that.

I am biased of course, but I can be a little objective (LOL) -

Parker was the best player in baseball for at least 3 years........had all of the tools......and then had an MVP year in 1985 (got 2nd to Willie McGee).

5th in MVP voting in 1986.

World Series and 11th in MVP voting in 1989 in Oakland.

Then he still drives in 92 and is 16th in MVP voting in 1990 with Milwaukee....that's 17 years after he broke into the league in 1973.

He did drop off after that...I do agree.


(Note: I did have to (re) look some of this info......I am not some kind of Dave Parker loser that might have gone to a neighborhood bar in a pillbox hat last night.)

Cobra39

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AgRyan04
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12:41p, 12/9/24
I don't think anyone will ever be able to explain to me that Harold Baines is a HOFer. I didn't even put his cards in penny sleeves....just straight into my commons box
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W
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In reply to Cobra39 • 2:09p, 12/9/24
AG
I put a lot of stock in MVP finishes for the Hall of Fame -- it shows that a player was one of the best among all players during his time

Parker finished:

1st - 1978
2nd - 1985
3rd - 1975, 1977
5th - 1986
10th - 1979

contrast that with the aforementioned Harold Baines:

9th - 1985
10th - 1983

or how about Carlos Beltran:

4th - 2006
9th - 2003
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Cobra39
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In reply to W • 2:33p, 12/9/24
W said:
I put a lot of stock in MVP finishes for the Hall of Fame -- it shows that a player was one of the best among all players during his time

Parker finished:

1st - 1978
2nd - 1985
3rd - 1975, 1977
5th - 1986
10th - 1979

contrast that with the aforementioned Harold Baines:

9th - 1985
10th - 1983

or how about Carlos Beltran:

4th - 2006
9th - 2003
What he said. (Remember an 11th and a 16th later also.)

Cobra39
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BCSWguru
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2:55p, 12/9/24
I totally agree about Baines. I forget about him as does just about everyone else.

Pirates might not get another hall of famer.
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Cobra39
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In reply to BCSWguru • 3:07p, 12/9/24
BCSWguru said:
I totally agree about Baines. I forget about him as does just about everyone else.

Pirates might not get another hall of famer.
Agree with that.

It will have to be some former Pirates getting in maybe (players that started their careers with Pittsburgh)......Cole....(way too early) Skenes......

Cobra39
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AgRyan04
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In reply to Cobra39 • 3:38p, 12/9/24
Does McCutchins have any chance?
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Cobra39
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In reply to AgRyan04 • 4:37p, 12/9/24
AgRyan04 said:
Does McCutchins have any chance?
No chance. He is a Pirate favorite (my favorite) and will easily be in that Hall/Ring. He was MVP one season...but his numbers just aren't up to par with other folks that would be considered.

Cobra39
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AgRyan04
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In reply to Cobra39 • 5:34p, 12/9/24
Four top 5 MVP finishes....300 HR/200 SB

Probably just too concentrated of a window of greatness
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BCSWguru
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7:06p, 12/9/24
Peak Cutch is certainly worthy of comparisons to HOF'ers, but just not enough seasons of it. And nobody that is any good will play in Pittsburgh long enough to go in as a Pirate.
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YokelRidesAgain
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In reply to Cobra39 • 8:33p, 12/9/24
AG
Cobra39 said:
No chance. He is a Pirate favorite (my favorite) and will easily be in that Hall/Ring. He was MVP one season...but his numbers just aren't up to par with other folks that would be considered.
Although I agree that McCutchen will presumably be a one and done guy on the BBWAA ballot, by Jay Jaffe's JAWS system he is superior to Parker.

McCutchen's WAR/WAR7 are 49.3/38.4 versus 40.1/37.4 for Parker.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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YokelRidesAgain
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In reply to W • 8:38p, 12/9/24
AG
W said:
I put a lot of stock in MVP finishes for the Hall of Fame -- it shows that a player was one of the best among all players during his time
That presumes that the writers had a clue who the best players were prior to the sabermetic era (Narrator: they did not).

Parker's 1978 MVP season was the only time he finished in the top 10 in baseball in bWAR.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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W
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9:24p, 12/9/24
AG
the other thread talks about the shortcomings of the WAR metric

and there are certain players -- that WAR really doesn't like
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AgRyan04
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In reply to W • 9:31p, 12/9/24
Sounds like something Harold Baines would say!
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W
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9:41p, 12/9/24
AG
at the risk of sending this thread in a different direction...

saw this the other day:

Career WAR per baseball reference:

45.3....Lou Brock
44.9....J.D. Drew
41.8....Jason Heyward
40.1....Dave Parker

Lou Brock was a 1st ballot Hall of Famer, but he barely had a better career than J.D. Drew -- what?

Parker was a superstar in the late 70's, but Heyward is the better player / had a better career -- what again?

something is wrong here
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The Porkchop Express
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10:20p, 12/9/24
AG
Something all those stats don't tell you is that Parker had a CANNON for an arm.

The Pirates had an almost completely uninterrupted run from 1955-1983 of either Roberto Clemente or Dave Parker in right field with two of the best arms of all-time.



Here also the epic matchup between Parker and Nolan Ryan at the same All-Star game. Unless they faced off at an early AS game, I assume this was the first time they matched up. The crowd is SO PUMPED

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jja79
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In reply to AgRyan04 • 10:45p, 12/9/24
AG
AgRyan04 said:
I don't think anyone will ever be able to explain to me that Harold Baines is a HOFer. I didn't even put his cards in penny sleeves....just straight into my commons box


I'm friends with one of his former teammates and even he couldn't believe he made it. Said he's probably the nicest guy he ever played with but no HOF.
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The Porkchop Express
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7:18a, 12/10/24
AG
Harold Baines is in my personal Hall of Fame because the Rangers traded away Sammy Sosa for 150 games of Harold Baines. Also Wilson Alvarez, who pitched a no-hitter once he was away from the rotting husk of Arlington.
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Farmer1906
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In reply to W • 1:53p, 12/10/24
AG
W said:
at the risk of sending this thread in a different direction...

saw this the other day:

Career WAR per baseball reference:

45.3....Lou Brock
44.9....J.D. Drew
41.8....Jason Heyward
40.1....Dave Parker

Lou Brock was a 1st ballot Hall of Famer, but he barely had a better career than J.D. Drew -- what?

Parker was a superstar in the late 70's, but Heyward is the better player / had a better career -- what again?

something is wrong here
Lou Brock shouldn't have been first ballot. He got a bunch of singles and played for a long time.

35th in PA
21st in Singles
486th in Doubles
63rd in Triples
606th in Home Runs

Top 5 seasons (wRC+) / JD Drew Top 5
132 / 164
128 / 164
126 / 146 (only 72 games)
124 / 142
116 / 165

Brock is a perfect example of baseball not knowing how to evaluate players. Give me JD Drew's prime over Brocks every day.

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BCSWguru
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 2:13p, 12/10/24
JD Drew was good, but never led the league in anything. Ever. HOF is definitely a product of when you play in addition to how you play. Being the most prolific base stealer ever has meaning.
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The Porkchop Express
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3:09p, 12/10/24
AG
I still can't figure out why WAR is such a paragon for some people.
No matter what numbers you put in the computer, you can't calculate what a win is.

JD Drew shouldn't be mentioned in the same paragraph as Lou Brock other than they both played for the Cardinals.
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YokelRidesAgain
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In reply to BCSWguru • 4:51p, 12/10/24
AG
BCSWguru said:
Being the most prolific base stealer ever has meaning.
Rickey says Rickey is the most prolific base stealer ever. Lou Brock was great in his day, but today is about Rickey.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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BCSWguru
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In reply to YokelRidesAgain • 4:55p, 12/10/24
I agree. When Lou was inducted, he held the record. That's all I'm saying.
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YokelRidesAgain
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5:02p, 12/10/24
AG
WAR has its issues; no single stat line is the be all and end all. In particular, despite an attempt to normalize comparisons between eras, deadball and 19th century pitchers are dramatically overrated by WAR on the basis of pure volume.

I also find the defense adjustments problematic (WAR asserts, for example, that not only was Andruw Jones a better outfielder than Willie Mays, but that it isn't even close. As another example, Keith Hernandez is assigned negative value as a defender despite having a solid case as the best defensive first baseman, ever.)

But I find the general judgments of WAR/WAA highly credible as regards the greatest players of all time. The post deadball career leaders in bWAR are Babe, Barry, Willie, Hank, Rocket, Stan the Man, Teddy Ballgame, A-Rod, Rickey, Mick, Tom Terrific, and Frank Robinson. Value judgments about roids aside, that is an outstanding list without a single "huh?". (Compare to NBA VORP, which asserts that John Stockton was the third best player ever.)

My null hypothesis on a player who seems "underrated" by WAR is that the player likely wasn't as good as I thought that he was.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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The Porkchop Express
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In reply to YokelRidesAgain • 5:07p, 12/10/24
AG
YokelRidesAgain said:
(Compare to NBA VORP, which asserts that John Stockton was the third best player ever.)
If VORP translates to biggest ******bag, then that's probably spot on.
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YokelRidesAgain
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In reply to The Porkchop Express • 5:13p, 12/10/24
AG
The Porkchop Express said:
YokelRidesAgain said:
(Compare to NBA VORP, which asserts that John Stockton was the third best player ever.)
If VORP translates to biggest ******bag, then that's probably spot on.
Dirty little runt, wasn't he? I always said that if Stockton was the size of Bill Laimbeer they would have led him to the court in handcuffs and a Hannibal Lecter mask.
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The Porkchop Express
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In reply to YokelRidesAgain • 7:04p, 12/10/24
AG
YokelRidesAgain said:
The Porkchop Express said:
YokelRidesAgain said:
(Compare to NBA VORP, which asserts that John Stockton was the third best player ever.)
If VORP translates to biggest ******bag, then that's probably spot on.
Dirty little runt, wasn't he? I always said that if Stockton was the size of Bill Laimbeer they would have led him to the court in handcuffs and a Hannibal Lecter mask.
My brother and I were at that game in Houston in '97 when he hit the three-pointer to win the WCF. Just the worst.
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Cooksville
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In reply to Cobra39 • 9:15a, 12/11/24
YokelRidesAgain
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In reply to BCSWguru • 9:22a, 12/11/24
AG
BCSWguru said:
I agree. When Lou was inducted, he held the record. That's all I'm saying.
I mean, yeah, but Jeff Reardon held the saves record until 1993. Put Jeff Reardon in the Hall!
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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