BREAKING: Negro Leagues statistics will officially be integrated into MLB database on Wednesday. Negro Leagues legend Josh Gibson will become MLB record holder in multiple categories.

Story to come for @YahooSports on a monumental day in baseball’s history.

— Russell Dorsey (@Russ_Dorsey1) May 28, 2024

I am disagreeable. Let me see if I can dig up some thoughts on the sun.

Also possibly due to historical racial injustice.

Need to dig up Ty Cobb and see how he feels about Josh Gibson taking the all-time career batting average title from him.

What can you do? The white players also didn't go against the best players because many of those negro league players were legitimate stars that would have lessened their stats.

The Porkchop Express said:

---

Need to dig up Ty Cobb and see how he feels about Josh Gibson taking the all-time career batting average title from him.

---

Just have Alcor unfreeze his head and ask him.

https://deadspin.com/what-it-took-to-get-ted-williamss-head-off-his-body-1475054922/

Beat40 said:

---

txags92 said:

---

EastCoastAgNc said:

---

Joe Espada says on @SportsMT Show, he is dropping Alex Bregman to 5th tonight. @SportsTalk790

— Dan Mathews (@DANMATHEWSHOU) May 28, 2024

So help me if this means he's putting Abreu 4th...

---

Surely he knows better than anybody that Bregman's issues have nothing to do with where hit hits in the order. Doesn't he know he fixed his mechanics a couple of weeks ago?

---

Tucker was batting 3rd, and when he moved to 2nd he is now on pace for a 10-11 WAR season. Guess the 2-spot is the reason Tucker is on that pace now, huh?

Yordan did horrible in the 2-spot to start the year and is a little better in the 3-spot this year. Why is the 2-spot magic for Tucker but not Yordan?


Now that I've gotten my snark out of the way, here's my problem with the whole move Bregman because where he hits in the order is affecting him a lot of you guys are making. Let's say he starts beating the hell out of the ball from the 6th spot. You guys don't want Espada to rush him back to the 4-spot. I've seen a couple of you guys on here wanting him to prove it for WEEKS.

If Bregman is mashing the ball at the 6th spot, this team doesn't have weeks for him to prove it. They need the Bregman before 2024 to be in the 4th spot. If he shows the 2024 self from the 6th spot over the course of a week, he's got to be moved up quickly.

I have no problem moving Bregman down because, given his OPS, he's hurting the team. If that's the argument, it's a valid one.

But, this whole he's not hitting because he's in the 4-spot is flat out silly.

---

Tucker was hitting well pretty much regardless of where he was moved. He hit better at the 2 with Yordan hitting behind him, but it isn't like he was hitting below the Mendoza line from the 3. Bregman is useless at the 4 and is hurting the team by being left there for so long. If you move him and he starts raking, why move him back right away?

The team needs him hitting .250+ with power again way more than we need him hitting at the 4. We have other options to put at the 4 that are serviceable. My main thing is not to attack Bregman for not hitting, it is to attack Espada for leaving him at the 4 for so long when he clearly isn't turning it around. We don't have the luxury right now of leaving unproductive players in key spots in the lineup.

Having a guy hitting .200 with zero power behind him is probably a big reason for Yordan's slump. With guys on base, who is going to throw Yordan a pitch to hit when they know Bregman is the 1-man popup/GIDP machine hitting behind him? That puts a lot of pressure on Yordan to do something with crappy pitches because he can't expect Bregman to pick him up if he doesn't.

The NBA will include ABA stats before too long, but I guess that's not as black and white an issue for most folks.

Bregman doesn't need to be down for weeks to "prove it." We have guys with a better ops (nearly every other player) who should be in the cleanup spot. Bregman doesn't belong there until/unless he's the best option for that spot. That's it.

The sub .100 batting average is bad, but the .113 slugging % makes me laugh.

MaxPower said:

---

What can you do? The white players also didn't go against the best players because many of those negro league players were legitimate stars that would have lessened their stats.

---

That's largely unknowable.

And even if the leagues had been integrated it's not likely Babe Ruth who was in his prime in the 1920's and early-30's would have faced Satchel Paige often enough to make a material difference on either one's stats.

I think it's pretty clear the best Negro League players were on par with the best players in MLB. But would the average MLB player of the day been any better or worse than the average Negro League player?

It's an unfortunate part of history that we'll never really know but this makes no sense.

The Porkchop Express said:

---

MaxPower said:

---

What can you do? The white players also didn't go against the best players because many of those negro league players were legitimate stars that would have lessened their stats.

---

THe Negro league seasons were 50-70 games long. Josh GIbson only played 602 games total over 14 seasons. He had a year where he led the league with a .402 average, but he only played in 27 games. His total career was less than 4 MLB seasons in # of games. It's stupid.

---

If there was a strike or COVID all those seasons it would have been different and the stats could count if they were in MLB.

BQRyno said:

---

Bregman doesn't need to be down for weeks to "prove it." We have guys with a better ops (nearly every other player) who should be in the cleanup spot. Bregman doesn't belong there until/unless he's the best option for that spot. That's it.

---

But they don't maintain two different record books. The stats before integration are compared against modern day players as if it's a fair comparison. If they are going to have them as two different record books then neither is relevant to the current sport. That makes Tony Gwynn the all time single season batting champ and no one in modern baseball (post integration) has hit .400.

I agree with you on a percentage stat like average. The same minimum at bat rules should be applied as would have applied for the big leagues. The cumulative stats are different since they would already be penalized for playing fewer games.

The Porkchop Express said:

---

The first media person to use the term "separate" in this issue is burned at the stake. Sad, but true.

---

Unfortunately, you're right. Even if the black players were on par with the white ones in MLB, their stats are inflated. Here's an interesting section I found when googling their schedule.

Quote:

---

To earn such wages, Black players competed in up to 150 games a seasonhalf to two-thirds of them against Black as well as white nonleague teams. Many of their opponents were local teams within easy reach of their home cities, but others were small-town teams far out on the barnstorming trail.

---

If this is accurate, many of their games were against white teams with guys who couldn't make the majors.

Astros vs. Mariners RHP Castillo: pic.twitter.com/5FONZQBmWc

— Matt Kawahara (@matthewkawahara) May 28, 2024

Espada is playing 3D chess. The more Abreu embarrasses himself, the sooner brass has to eat crow and eject.

MaxPower said:

---

Cangelosi was extremely good the two years he was with us. I had no concerns with him batting leadoff.

---

Led the league in RBI's every year. Red Blooded Italian

BQRyno said:

---

Bregman doesn't need to be down for weeks to "prove it." We have guys with a better ops (nearly every other player) who should be in the cleanup spot. Bregman doesn't belong there until/unless he's the best option for that spot. That's it.

---

But the question is actually how long? If he hits like he did 2017-2023 (excluding 2019) for 1 week? 2 weeks? 3 weeks? Because that hitter is currently better than Pena.

Bregman is to going to catch up in OPS, so, you're going to have to use a time period to judge if he's back to form.

So again, how long are you waiting to move him back to 4. The Astros need the 2017-2023 (excluding 2019) Alex Bregman in the 4-spot badly, so if he goes he's back to that, you have to move him back to the 4 even if his OPS is lower than Peña and Meyers.