Folks are saying Loperfido wasn't in the long term plans but look at all the others we've moved up in recent years, Kessinger, Madris, Julks, Hensley off the top of my head. It sure would be nice to have Loperfido.
***** 2024 Houston Astros Season Thread ***** [Staff Warning]
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Kessinger has lasted longer as an Astro than Loperfido and Bloss. Didn't see that coming
To be fair, that was the 1st run that Pressly had given up in close to 2 months....his last was the meltdown against the Angels in the beginning of June.agproducer said:
And thinking about it more -- I'm more angry that Pressly gave up yet another run and Hader gave up a dinger to Michael A. Taylor that cost us the game last night.
Loperfido is only up because of Tucker's injury. Even with Tucker's injury, if Chas was performing, I doubt he would have been called up.Chef Elko said:
Folks are saying Loperfido wasn't in the long term plans but look at all the others we've moved up in recent years, Kessinger, Madris, Julks, Hensley off the top of my head. It sure would be nice to have Loperfido.
Beat40 said:Loperfido is only up because of Tucker's injury. Even with Tucker's injury, if Chas was performing, I doubt he would have been called up.Chef Elko said:
Folks are saying Loperfido wasn't in the long term plans but look at all the others we've moved up in recent years, Kessinger, Madris, Julks, Hensley off the top of my head. It sure would be nice to have Loperfido.
Chas isn't performing
That's fair. I wasn't so much as upset with Press. The dude has been nails as of late, but Hader has struggled with control all season. Last night's dinger was ridiculous.The Beef01 said:To be fair, that was the 1st run that Pressly had given up in close to 2 months....his last was the meltdown against the Angels in the beginning of June.agproducer said:
And thinking about it more -- I'm more angry that Pressly gave up yet another run and Hader gave up a dinger to Michael A. Taylor that cost us the game last night.
It will be interesting to see how playing time is allocated for Chas, Leon, and Cabbage now until Tucker comes back.
Agreed....the optics on this trade look a lot worse simply b/c of name recognition that we wouldn't have had without a lot of injuries.Beat40 said:Loperfido is only up because of Tucker's injury. Even with Tucker's injury, if Chas was performing, I doubt he would have been called up.Chef Elko said:
Folks are saying Loperfido wasn't in the long term plans but look at all the others we've moved up in recent years, Kessinger, Madris, Julks, Hensley off the top of my head. It sure would be nice to have Loperfido.
Still not a fan of the trade (certainly not going to take a fatalistic approach to it), but it's not some franchise-ending debacle. These weren't wildly heralded prospects in the top 100.
Had Jacob Melton been included....now we're getting into raging "WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU DOING?!?!?" territory.
Neither is Joey. What's your point?
Sure, but that isn't the point of the conversation. The point is the organization didn't see him as a long-term option and treated him as such.AggiEE said:Beat40 said:Loperfido is only up because of Tucker's injury. Even with Tucker's injury, if Chas was performing, I doubt he would have been called up.Chef Elko said:
Folks are saying Loperfido wasn't in the long term plans but look at all the others we've moved up in recent years, Kessinger, Madris, Julks, Hensley off the top of my head. It sure would be nice to have Loperfido.
Chas isn't performing
Chas not performing is a separate issue. My opinion is Joey would have been Chas by the end of August. He was already damn near there before the trade.
Yeah, I get it, but Chas isn't performing and Tucker still isn't here. So we trade Loperfido and hope the next prospects behind him are better? I guess we will see them in the rebuild
A few quick thoughts:
1) I think the lack of credibility built up by the current regime (Brown, Crane, former player advisors) seems to be playing a role in the perception of this deal. If Luhnow or Click had made the same deal during their tenures, we'd be more confident in a) our ability to getting Kikuchi back on track or b) that we've properly evaluated the three players we gave up.
2) It feels like we wanted to grab a starter without dipping deeper into our farm and giving up guys with higher upside. A classic Astros "flip some AAAA guys who don't really fit into the plan for some help now". These types of deals have burned us in the past (Teo for Liriano to name one) but generally speaking they don't.
Every year there's a new batch of replacement level guys that emerge in the farm and, IMO, they're the ones to deal in situations like this when there's a hole to address in the big league roster. Given where our organizational depth stands today, the younger higher ceiling guys are the ones we need to hang onto.
3) I definitely get the sentiment shift after it was revealed that Loporfido was included in the deal. He's got some fan fav vibes and his fresh energy earlier this year is, right or wrong, held in parallel with our resurgence. I hope he succeeds in Toronto.
4) I'm really curious to see Kikuchi's performance over the next few months. I think a new scenery/approach/mx could be just what he needs. Would I have liked to have brought in someone who's more of a sure thing in return for the three guys we gave up? Perhaps. But reserving judgment for now.
1) I think the lack of credibility built up by the current regime (Brown, Crane, former player advisors) seems to be playing a role in the perception of this deal. If Luhnow or Click had made the same deal during their tenures, we'd be more confident in a) our ability to getting Kikuchi back on track or b) that we've properly evaluated the three players we gave up.
2) It feels like we wanted to grab a starter without dipping deeper into our farm and giving up guys with higher upside. A classic Astros "flip some AAAA guys who don't really fit into the plan for some help now". These types of deals have burned us in the past (Teo for Liriano to name one) but generally speaking they don't.
Every year there's a new batch of replacement level guys that emerge in the farm and, IMO, they're the ones to deal in situations like this when there's a hole to address in the big league roster. Given where our organizational depth stands today, the younger higher ceiling guys are the ones we need to hang onto.
3) I definitely get the sentiment shift after it was revealed that Loporfido was included in the deal. He's got some fan fav vibes and his fresh energy earlier this year is, right or wrong, held in parallel with our resurgence. I hope he succeeds in Toronto.
4) I'm really curious to see Kikuchi's performance over the next few months. I think a new scenery/approach/mx could be just what he needs. Would I have liked to have brought in someone who's more of a sure thing in return for the three guys we gave up? Perhaps. But reserving judgment for now.
The K rate was definitely starting to creep up....that was the knock against him in Sugar Land and he was starting to strike out at a pretty alarming rate.Beat40 said:Sure, but that isn't the point of the conversation. The point is the organization didn't see him as a long-term option and treated him as such.AggiEE said:Beat40 said:Loperfido is only up because of Tucker's injury. Even with Tucker's injury, if Chas was performing, I doubt he would have been called up.Chef Elko said:
Folks are saying Loperfido wasn't in the long term plans but look at all the others we've moved up in recent years, Kessinger, Madris, Julks, Hensley off the top of my head. It sure would be nice to have Loperfido.
Chas isn't performing
Chas not performing is a separate issue. My opinion is Joey would have been Chas by the end of August. He was already damn near there before the trade.
His defense was proving out, but he clearly has some work to do as his power was almost non-existent once he was called up and he was looking overmatched with greater frequency.
Congrats to Cabbage, I guess
If he and Chas both aren't performing, and Joey is striking out 35% of the time, what's the difference?Chef Elko said:
Yeah, I get it, but Chas isn't performing and Tucker still isn't here. So we trade Loperfido and hope the next prospects behind him are better? I guess we will see them in the rebuild
At least now we get the chance to see what Leon can do.
Yes, at least we can finally see what Leon can do. That is one good thing
I don't think he has one. I think he's just yelling at everyone.
SpaceCityAg05 said:
It will be interesting to see how playing time is allocated for Chas, Leon, and Cabbage now until Tucker comes back.
If Tucker comes back.
The thing I wanted to see was Loperfido to get a chance as an everyday player not an ever 5th day player. Never had a chance to develop a routine. It's not like Chas or Cabbage were playing to good to be taken out and I think Joey played excellent in the field.The Beef01 said:The K rate was definitely starting to creep up....that was the knock against him in Sugar Land and he was starting to strike out at a pretty alarming rate.Beat40 said:Sure, but that isn't the point of the conversation. The point is the organization didn't see him as a long-term option and treated him as such.AggiEE said:Beat40 said:Loperfido is only up because of Tucker's injury. Even with Tucker's injury, if Chas was performing, I doubt he would have been called up.Chef Elko said:
Folks are saying Loperfido wasn't in the long term plans but look at all the others we've moved up in recent years, Kessinger, Madris, Julks, Hensley off the top of my head. It sure would be nice to have Loperfido.
Chas isn't performing
Chas not performing is a separate issue. My opinion is Joey would have been Chas by the end of August. He was already damn near there before the trade.
His defense was proving out, but he clearly has some work to do as his power was almost non-existent once he was called up and he was looking overmatched with greater frequency.
i mean, astros currently have an entire big league rotation on the injured list; mccullers, luis garcia, javier, urquidy, plus the noted verlander, and 4 other pitchers on top of that,,, injuries have destroyed depthEastCoastAgNc said:This is where the Astros deserve the most criticism. @astro_numbers hit the nail on the head. pic.twitter.com/MjeoYBhhwg
— The Crawfish Boxes (@CrawfishBoxes) July 30, 2024
https://ts.la/eric59704
07ag said:i mean, astros currently have an entire big league rotation on the injured list; mccullers, luis garcia, javier, urquidy, plus the noted verlander, and 4 other pitchers on top of that,,, injuries have destroyed depthEastCoastAgNc said:This is where the Astros deserve the most criticism. @astro_numbers hit the nail on the head. pic.twitter.com/MjeoYBhhwg
— The Crawfish Boxes (@CrawfishBoxes) July 30, 2024
I think it's worth noting that a lot of Joey's good plays were recovering from bad first steps and miscues. ie...The play he made the other night against Ohtani.
He's had a handful of nice plays showing some range, but he's also had some missteps where his athleticism bails him out.
He's had a handful of nice plays showing some range, but he's also had some missteps where his athleticism bails him out.
Dana isn't done y'all!!
BREAKING: The Houston Astros are trading Yordan Alvarez, CJ Stroud, Dusty Baker and their beloved local meme page ‘astrosmemes’ to the Chicago White Sox.
— FAX Sports: MLB (@MLBONFAX) July 30, 2024
Corey Julks, Korey Lee, a bag of pretzels, cash considerations and a PTBNL are headed to Houston.
“Nobody in Houston is… pic.twitter.com/vTujsduIva
he will be a keep piece off the benchChef Elko said:
Congrats to Cabbage, I guess
right along with Aledmys
oh boy...
Oh, for sure...I don't disagree with that; however, if his trend line continued down the same path with everyday use, he goes from being something we're *****ing about as an inclusion to get a ML pitcher to a guy who languishes as a AAAA guy and has zero trade value.Bogey1996 said:The thing I wanted to see was Loperfido to get a chance as an everyday player not an ever 5th day player. Never had a chance to develop a routine. It's not like Chas or Cabbage were playing to good to be taken out and I think Joey played excellent in the field.The Beef01 said:The K rate was definitely starting to creep up....that was the knock against him in Sugar Land and he was starting to strike out at a pretty alarming rate.Beat40 said:Sure, but that isn't the point of the conversation. The point is the organization didn't see him as a long-term option and treated him as such.AggiEE said:Beat40 said:Loperfido is only up because of Tucker's injury. Even with Tucker's injury, if Chas was performing, I doubt he would have been called up.Chef Elko said:
Folks are saying Loperfido wasn't in the long term plans but look at all the others we've moved up in recent years, Kessinger, Madris, Julks, Hensley off the top of my head. It sure would be nice to have Loperfido.
Chas isn't performing
Chas not performing is a separate issue. My opinion is Joey would have been Chas by the end of August. He was already damn near there before the trade.
His defense was proving out, but he clearly has some work to do as his power was almost non-existent once he was called up and he was looking overmatched with greater frequency.
I would like to know you consider "solid"? You don't need fancy analysis to see a high ERA and his inability to pitch deep into games as the season has progressed.Farmer1906 said:AggiEE said:Farmer1906 said:AggiEE said:Farmer1906 said:AggiEE said:Farmer1906 said:Ragnar Danneskjoldd said:Kikuchi in the majority of his seasons. He has one good year pulling down the career era to slightly below 5. In his most recent 15 starts he has an era of 5.8.Farmer1906 said:
Who has a 5+ ERA in this scenario?
So he doesn't have a 5 ERA this year, or last year, or his career, and the #s show he should have a lower ERA moving forward yet he's a 5+ ERA guy. Ok.
His numbers show he has a 4.75 ERA, roughly his career average….
Round up to 5
If you wanna have a low level conversation, you do you.
If you want to think he's just been getting unlucky for his entire career and Astros will have massively better output than what he's shown, that's what we call hopium…
Show me where I said that. I think the rest of this year is probably going to mirror last year & similar the expected #s. What he did 3-4 years ago has little relevance since he's changed some things. A less drastic version of Brown adding a sinker. Brown in April ain't the Brown in July no matter how much you cry about ERA.
Again, hopium.
Look I hope that happens too…but I'm not gonna be surprised if he gets lit up in most of his starts and we start wondering why Bloss couldn't fill that role instead…
Make sure you say Farmer was right… again when he's solid.
The trade just stinks of failing to get Flaherty so we panicked and settled on Kikuchi, costs be damned.
Another place where I hate throwing Will Wagner in.
Like many, I don't see him as a real starter, but he could have been providing real value as a bench bat NOW. As a utility player on the bench, his lack of power is not nearly as problematic. The ability to draw walks and pick up key hits would have been immediately valuable.
It would have given us a left-handed Dubon off the bench (Dubie hits lefties MUCH better).
Like many, I don't see him as a real starter, but he could have been providing real value as a bench bat NOW. As a utility player on the bench, his lack of power is not nearly as problematic. The ability to draw walks and pick up key hits would have been immediately valuable.
It would have given us a left-handed Dubon off the bench (Dubie hits lefties MUCH better).
Trade news: The New York Yankees and Chicago Cubs are in agreement on a trade that will send right-handed reliever Mark Leiter Jr. to the Yankees and infielder Ben Cowles and right-handed reliever Jack Neely to the Cubs, sources tell me and @kileymcd.
— Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) July 30, 2024
From a fan standpoint this trade would have gone over better if it had been Cabbage instead of Joey.
Don't go bringing logic into all of this.agproducer said:
I've had a chance to sleep on it -- and I still think the trade is **** overall. BUT -- bottom line is this: We got an additional veteran pitcher to take some of the strain off our young arms.
Kikuchi will be a bridge to JV and LuAce coming back. They are behind schedule, but both throwing from the mound.
As for what we gave up:
Bloss -- he may or may not pan out. He was a high prospect IN OUR SYSTEM, and our system right now is low. He was a so-called star in our system because he was a high draft choice, but he may be middling in middle-of-the-road farm systems. He has upside and value, but let's not act like in the overall scheme of things in MLB that he was a major, major prospect.
Loperfido -- he had great stuff that he brought to the table, but we are loaded with OF prospects. We have a surplus. He's a great guy and great teammate, but he has holes in his game. As others have pointed out, we have Melton, Leon, Matthews and others in the minors. We don't have to really worry about OF because we have Meyers, Chas and Tucker for next year. It's not a "Wow" OF, but it will be a good bridge until one or some of the prospects are ready.
Wagner -- he was not going to be a starter in the bigs. He was organizational depth.
Remember, we have a ton coming off the books next year. We will also sign FAs in the offseason to help bridge.
Dana is a good talent evaluator. We've seen that. Remember when we traded Korey Lee? Some were upset we gave him up. He's hitting .216 for the White Sox this year with an OPS of .613. Moving him cleared room for Diaz.
This trade trimmed organizational fat with an overpay. Loperfido and Wagner were expendable because of Dezenzo, Melton and Matthews. Leon is getting a look to see if he will stick. If not -- he will be out too.
This is not an organizational-crushing or dynasty-ending trade. This was a move -- again an overpay -- to fill a need from areas of surplus.
Also, the OF as currently constructed leads the league in outs above expected. So while performance at the plate isn't top tier, defensive production definitely is.
Mathguy64 said:
From a fan standpoint this trade would have gone over better if it had been Cabbage instead of Joey.
Yeah because it wouldn't have happened.
If we were to acquire Yandy Diaz, who do you expect we would part with? I'm hoping we hold on to Melton & B.Matthews, but would give up a couple other prospects (and can we throw in Chas?).
I mean, you can actually make the same argument for Chas. He's always gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to guys playing over him, even when he was performing well.Bogey1996 said:The thing I wanted to see was Loperfido to get a chance as an everyday player not an ever 5th day player. Never had a chance to develop a routine. It's not like Chas or Cabbage were playing to good to be taken out and I think Joey played excellent in the field.The Beef01 said:The K rate was definitely starting to creep up....that was the knock against him in Sugar Land and he was starting to strike out at a pretty alarming rate.Beat40 said:Sure, but that isn't the point of the conversation. The point is the organization didn't see him as a long-term option and treated him as such.AggiEE said:Beat40 said:Loperfido is only up because of Tucker's injury. Even with Tucker's injury, if Chas was performing, I doubt he would have been called up.Chef Elko said:
Folks are saying Loperfido wasn't in the long term plans but look at all the others we've moved up in recent years, Kessinger, Madris, Julks, Hensley off the top of my head. It sure would be nice to have Loperfido.
Chas isn't performing
Chas not performing is a separate issue. My opinion is Joey would have been Chas by the end of August. He was already damn near there before the trade.
His defense was proving out, but he clearly has some work to do as his power was almost non-existent once he was called up and he was looking overmatched with greater frequency.
Maybe more consistent playing time without someone over his shoulder get him going.
Also, the fact that it wasn't Cabbage speaks to who Dana thought was more expendable...Cabbage's development and impact over the next 2-3 years is something I'm looking at in terms of assessing how sharp Dana and his PD analysts are.Ag_07 said:Mathguy64 said:
From a fan standpoint this trade would have gone over better if it had been Cabbage instead of Joey.
Yeah because it wouldn't have happened.
tjack16 said:
Kessinger has lasted longer as an Astro than Loperfido and Bloss. Didn't see that coming
Probably because he's been offered as part of a trade package and nobody wants him. He's 0 for 2024 in the bigs this year.
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