I will start this by saying that I understand there is and will be criticism, much of it valid, about select baseball. I get that. Just try to pretend that we are all sitting at bar having this conversation and don't use the anonymity of the internet as an excuse to be a ******bag.

Select baseball also has a lot of positives, and every one of the kids that plays baseball at Olsen Field this year came up through it.

This thread is about keeping kids healthy in the current youth baseball environment, not really the environment itself.

Little League Elbow

No elbow pain is OK. Ever. If a child has any elbow pain shut them down immediately and take them to a doctor.

MLB pitching recs for youth players

Follow this. If you are a parent and see these rules being broken make a bunch of noise. If your coach doesnt listen leave the team. We follow this very carefully and it still happened.

I have been waiting to post this until I was comfortable enough that he was going to make a full recovery. And sorry for the long post. Consider this a cautionary tail.

Several of y'all have seen my now 12 year old son play and sorry not sorry for bragging on him. Kid is driven and he can flat out play baseball(and football). There are not a lot of teams in the State that he would not start on and pitch on Sundays. And he LOVES him some baseball.

My son has not thrown a ball of any kind since June 12. He came out on a Sunday morning in Kyle and threw a one hit shutout, then sat out the next game which we lost. This ended a successful season for our boys who won their first AAA level tournament and also lost in another final. Our boys have, for the most part, been together since t ball. Advantage of a small town.

Anyway we went the next week to Omaha and had a blast watching the Frogs and Tigers and ORU and the Gators, but his arm would not loosen up. To make this part of a long story short we came home, went to the doctor, and he was diagnosed with Little League Elbow.

Little League Elbow is a very serious injury that if not handled with extreme care can ruin an arm and have lasting effects as an adult. It is essentially a broken/inflamed/torn up/beat up growth plate, specifically where the UCL meets it. EVERYONE involved in youth baseball needs to read up on little league elbow. It is strictly an overuse injury that can only be treated by rest. Out for three months.

August comes around, he was doing much better and was cleared by two doctors to play football as long as he didn't throw, and we all agreed to sit out fall ball. He gave up QB and started at RB and DE. Unfortunately the contact, which he craves, reversed his progress, and after six games we decided to shut him down and take the drastic step of putting him in a cast. Five weeks. Came off the day before T-giving.

We have spent the last six weeks in physical therapy with a therapist who has been amazing. We are about to begin throwing again and would have this last week but this weather sucks.

A full recovery is expected and he should be able to return to baseball by Spring Break. He will play one game a day, but no 3b, ss, or OF. 1B or 2B only. He can DH or PR or whatever in the other game and obviously if the first game is a blowout and he never touched the ball he can play in the second AS LONG AS the games are back to back.

I will continue my thoughts on the next post.

The mental game and lessons learned.

The hardest part has been the mental side making him see that the world was not ending. We went to Game 1 and were about 40 feet or so from the game winning homer in the 10th. That helped. But the day to day grind of constant soreness and pain knowing your friends are playing and moving on was extremely difficult for him. Kids are also mean. He told me one day he couldn't wait for middle school football next year so he could teach some bully kids a lesson. The cast also helped. It immediately took the pain away and freed him up to not worry about it.

The frustrating thing is we are VERY careful with our pitch counts, catchers innings, etc. We are MUCH more cautious than pretty much every other team we see. We do not pitch our catchers and we strictly follow the MLB guidelines for youth pitchers. But it still happened. And it happened to our best player. The problem is kids do not understand how to handle their bodies outside of the game and my son is no different. He would swim, shoot hoops, play whiffleball, etc all day every day in the summer and this happened two weeks into summer break.

Lessons- We ended up playing most of the season with 10 players because of one defect and one other injury. But, AND IF THIS IS THE ONLY PART YOU READ, ten is not enough. Carry 12 kids. At least. Rest your pitchers. Don't throw a kid 60 pitches then put him at third three hours later. That kind of **** kills arms. I understand that parents want their little johnny on the field, but its your job, our job, as coaches to educate parents on arms. Hell give them my number and I will talk to them. And while it seems obvious do not overpitch again to win games.

Last, and I know I just said it, but carry at least 12 kids. And don't be the parent that cries cause his little Johnny is not playing every inning. The biggest challenge, according to his doctor, is not just playing in the field after pitching but warming up multiple times in a day. Playing at 8am, 1pm, and 5:30pm is borderline criminal. But it is absolutely going to happen and those days cannot be safely navigated without 12 players.


Thanks for reading and I truly hope sharing this experience will help other parents and kids make smart decisions.

Agreed. And in the spirit of what I bolded this is absolutely a key part of being healthy in the current environment.

Fall ball in any serious capacity, especially at the sacrifice of other sports, is a big problem.

If you are a parent looking for a good team, I would ask three questions.

1. Do you follow MLB guidelines for pitchers
2. Do you have an expectation of year round competitive baseball.
3. Do you carry at least twelve players.

All three of those things are key to keeping kids healthy.

AustinCountyAg said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

Select baseball also has a lot of positives, and every one of the kids that plays baseball at Olsen Field this year came up through it.

This thread is about keeping kids healthy in the current youth baseball environment, not really the environment itself.

---

Here is my brief 2 cents that summarizes my feelings on youth select baseball.

Kids under 13 have no reason to play baseball year around. You can play in the spring and some in the summer. Thats it. They need to play other sports to take a break as well as improve the fine motor skills not developed in baseball.

Once you get to high school this kind of changes, but I will tell you this. I know and have played with multiple MLB players and not a single one played year around baseball. EVER. AT ANY AGE.

---

You're presuming that kids aren't playing other sports at the same time. And the vast majority of MLB players today under the age of 35 or so played year-round from a fairly early age. That doesn't mean they didn't play other sports. Every single one of the players in MLB from Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Venezuela, etc all played year round coming up too. In fact, if you graduated HS after 2000 and were D1 or professional prospect the vast majority played year round at a young age. There's a huge difference in specializing one sport (ie- baseball) and playing it year-round vs. playing multiple sports and still playing most of the year in baseball.

There are many factors that play into arm issues and contrary to what some claim the whole "take time off from throwing" thing has been disproven. In fact, it's when kids take time off from throwing and then try to jump into throwing a lot without a proper ramp up that causes bigger issues.

Perhaps the bigger issue which some folks conflate with year-round baseball is that too many kids neglect their overall athleticism. They don't resistance train (no need for weights at a younger age) and they don't work on speed & agility. I've had Schlossnagle himself tell me that kids today are more skilled than ever but the hardest thing in recruiting is that way too many kids don't spend enough time lifting weights and doing stuff to get bigger, stronger, faster, and more explosive.

Quote:

---

There are many factors that play into arm issues and contrary to what some claim the whole "take time off from throwing" thing has been disproven. In fact, it's when kids take time off from throwing and then try to jump into throwing a lot without a proper ramp up that causes bigger issues.

---

To be clear, that has not been disproven. There is certainly a school of thought that believes that kids need to continue to throw and that its really the pitching, not just the throwing, where kids need to take time off. But to say that it has been 'disproven' is not accurate. That is FAR from a universally accepted opinion.

But to your point on the other thread, there is a BIG difference between throwing and pitching. I believe MLB has adjusted their language to pitching.



But I do absolutely agree with the bigger point that kids should play multiple sports and not let fall ball be a substitute for other sports, mainly flag or tackle football. And in a lot of places that is exactly what happens. I also think that if your kid is a QB playing a full baseball schedule in the fall is not realistic.

Perhaps "disproven" is too strong but there's a large and growing body of research that points to that conclusion.

There's a whole industry that's grown up around routines to keep kids arms healthy while getting stronger. And the data from guys like Tom House, Driveline, Tread, Top Velocity, and Texas Baseball Ranch shows that just as big of a part of pitching too much comes from kids throwing harder than their bodies are ready for because they haven't built up the strength to support the joints, especially in the deceleration phase.

If you are playing in today's travel/select baseball, even 12 is not enough on most teams. With many tournament formats having 2 pool games on Saturday and then bracket play on Sunday, it's not unusual for 5-6 games to be required for the final two teams.

That's 30-40 innings on pitcher (and catcher) arms, not counting warmup, midweek practice, etc. Add in the fact that most of the better pitchers also excel at other positions at this age, and you have a recipe for some very bad things. I'd suggest 14-15 players with at least half being able to provide quality innings. Unfortunately many parents (and many coaches) won't run a team this large for the very reasons outlined above.

This is mitigated to some extent as they get older and start paying HS ball and you start seeing more POs. But even then, the really gone ones are still the starting CF/SS/1B and when rubber meets the road, coaches are coaching for wins to keep their job. This is not me saying it is right, but very few parents are willing to be the squeaky enough wheel to make an impact when so many old school coaches are still in the game.

My son is a two-way college freshman, albeit at a small school. We dealt with our first real arm injury as he finished his senior season and went into fall workouts as an incoming freshman. My ability to control his workload was greatly diminished when I stopped coaching him entering HS ball. Even with a pretty knowledgeable former MLB pitcher as the HS pithing coach, there are still things I would have done differently. However, I am not the coach and the only influence I have is pulling my kid from games or a program. That is a battle we chose not to fight with our son, but we did have enough conversations with him to feel comfortable about him self-managing his workload as a senior. Even so, an arm injury came up, though it is impossible to pinpoint a particular cause.

College has been better but still imperfect as the stakes are high for small school coaches trying to either hang on or make their bones in the game. Christmas break had some hard conversations with our son about the wisdom of trying to be a 2 way player going forward. The anguish is real because he truly loves both, but I'm hopeful that competition and natural weeding out will make it clear that one or the other is the right path.

Sorry for the long post and any typos. This is something that is really important to me and others I know in similar select/HS/college programs.

Thriller no need to apologize and I appreciate your experience and input.

I do not disagree with you that 14 would be even better than 12, but in my experienc in 9u-11u the most innings we have ever played in a weekend is 28. That was three five inning games and two six inning games which was to say the least an extremely well pitched tournament(in Bryan by the way). Maybe as they get older 35-40 becomes the norm but not quite yet for us. At that point 15 is a must.

The point is still the same that when a college team goes for a three game series, normally 27 innings, they take about 25 players. Select 10 year olds go play 25 innings with 10. It is not possilble to do that safely.

My hope is a parent who is concerned about reading this has second thoughts on complaining about playing time for there youth pitcher.

[Deleted]

TarponChaser said:

---

AustinCountyAg said:

---

Well myself and many others who played D1 baseball and some of my best friends who played pro ball and still play pro ball all graduated after 2000 did not play baseball year around. In fact I hardly touched a ball from about October until January. And I pitched in college. I know a little bit about the situation. To each their own though. If you wanna have your kids throw year around you do you bro. Good luck

---

Good for you.

But if it's about a dik-measuring contest two can play that game as I've got about a dozen different guys who all played D1 or MiLB and a few MLB guys who say the opposite (and this doesn't include the dozen or so guys I grew up playing with who played professionally). They're Tom House disciples and have worked with/at places like Texas Baseball Ranch and Driveline. And all the guys who graduated HS post-2000 or so played year-round. They played other sports too and had a lighter workload in the fall but they didn't take months away from throwing.

I'm not a baseball guy but I did play D1 football (and still know a bunch of guys who were on the baseball team where I played football) and know human performance and training for speed, strength, explosiveness, and durability. We're on the routine we are specifically because of the advice of these guys and his coaches who all played and coached collegiate and/or professional baseball.

Arm care is the #1 priority and these are people in the business of arm care and training. They all preach the same thing and that the old conventional wisdom about taking a few months off isn't the best course of action. I used to believe that myself. Just like I used to think that pitchers always needed to ice their arm after throwing a lot or that throwing a curveball before about 15 was terrible for arms. But there's been a good deal of research showing that ice actually inhibits the recovery process and that when taught properly, a 12-6 curveball is less stressful on the arm than throwing a fastball.

Since his fall season ended back before Thanksgiving his routine has been far more about strength training and speed/agility work but there's heavy focus on lower body and core strength for both football & baseball. He's been doing long-toss once a week and does pitching lessons once a week. Those are 30-minute sessions focused on mechanics and medium intensity for the most part. Lots of flat ground work.

And we always keep a close eye on how he's feeling, his pitch/inning counts, and so forth. We chose an organization with a reputation for taking care of arms (one A&M's 2025 commits has played in our org from 10U-16u, but played with Banditos in Jupiter this fall since we didn't have a 17U team in the fall). At 13 & 14U they've been really good about following pitcher use guidelines.

Tom House: "Don't Stop Throwing"

There are also multiple articles from Professional Baseball Strength & Conditioning Coaches Society that cite research backing up what House says too.

---

I think we are agreeing with each other more than we realize. I agree with all this. This is similar to what I did and what I preach and agree with. When I spoke of "hardly touching the ball". I still did baseball activities once a week or so. More so fundamental type of things at 50-60% effort if that.

I was speaking more to the point of kids not needing to play competitive baseball year around, specifically pitching at 100% effort for twelve months out of the year starting at age 7. Nothing wrong imo with throwing once a week, and doing flat ground stuff.

AustinCountyAg said:

---

TarponChaser said:

---

AustinCountyAg said:

---

Well myself and many others who played D1 baseball and some of my best friends who played pro ball and still play pro ball all graduated after 2000 did not play baseball year around. In fact I hardly touched a ball from about October until January. And I pitched in college. I know a little bit about the situation. To each their own though. If you wanna have your kids throw year around you do you bro. Good luck

---

Good for you.

But if it's about a dik-measuring contest two can play that game as I've got about a dozen different guys who all played D1 or MiLB and a few MLB guys who say the opposite (and this doesn't include the dozen or so guys I grew up playing with who played professionally). They're Tom House disciples and have worked with/at places like Texas Baseball Ranch and Driveline. And all the guys who graduated HS post-2000 or so played year-round. They played other sports too and had a lighter workload in the fall but they didn't take months away from throwing.

I'm not a baseball guy but I did play D1 football (and still know a bunch of guys who were on the baseball team where I played football) and know human performance and training for speed, strength, explosiveness, and durability. We're on the routine we are specifically because of the advice of these guys and his coaches who all played and coached collegiate and/or professional baseball.

Arm care is the #1 priority and these are people in the business of arm care and training. They all preach the same thing and that the old conventional wisdom about taking a few months off isn't the best course of action. I used to believe that myself. Just like I used to think that pitchers always needed to ice their arm after throwing a lot or that throwing a curveball before about 15 was terrible for arms. But there's been a good deal of research showing that ice actually inhibits the recovery process and that when taught properly, a 12-6 curveball is less stressful on the arm than throwing a fastball.

Since his fall season ended back before Thanksgiving his routine has been far more about strength training and speed/agility work but there's heavy focus on lower body and core strength for both football & baseball. He's been doing long-toss once a week and does pitching lessons once a week. Those are 30-minute sessions focused on mechanics and medium intensity for the most part. Lots of flat ground work.

And we always keep a close eye on how he's feeling, his pitch/inning counts, and so forth. We chose an organization with a reputation for taking care of arms (one A&M's 2025 commits has played in our org from 10U-16u, but played with Banditos in Jupiter this fall since we didn't have a 17U team in the fall). At 13 & 14U they've been really good about following pitcher use guidelines.

Tom House: "Don't Stop Throwing"

There are also multiple articles from Professional Baseball Strength & Conditioning Coaches Society that cite research backing up what House says too.

---

I think we are agreeing with each other more than we realize. I agree with all this. This is similar to what I did and what I preach and agree with. When I spoke of "hardly touching the ball". I still did baseball activities once a week or so. More so fundamental type of things at 50-60% effort if that.

I was speaking more to the point of kids not needing to play competitive baseball year around, specifically pitching at 100% effort for twelve months out of the year starting at age 7. Nothing wrong imo with throwing once a week, and doing flat ground stuff.

---

OK, then you and I generally agree.

But, you made it sound like completely shutting down all throwing for 4 months and that's what a lot of people hear when they hear "take some time off."

The older one has generally shut down games from before Thanksgiving until late February but maintains a pretty heavy workout routine. Even in the fall when he juggled football and baseball he still insisted on going to workouts in the evenings twice a week. Too many people don't realize that you still have to lift in-season and do the speed & agility work too.

I read a book back in college called Saving the Pitcher that really made me realize how jacked up my arm was when I was in high school. It was written by one of the Baseball Prospectus guys.

I didn't pitch - I played outfield - I wasn't a next level talent but I LOVED the game. We just threw so much in practice every week that I didn't realize the difference between a sore arm and an injured arm. If we weren't at practice or playing a real game then we were in the yard playing tennis ball baseball or we were playing wall ball or we were having a pecan war (our subdivision was an old pecan orchard).

I threw a football maybe 4 or 5 tosses with a work colleague yesterday after the ball rolled out of the car when we got back from lunch and I felt and heard all the cracking and popping.

I don't know if the book is still relevant - it's been 20+ years so it might be dated information - but if not it might be worth checking out as a reference for someone.

AgRyan04 said:

---

I read a book back in college called Saving the Pitcher that really made me realize how jacked up my arm was when I was in high school. It was written by one of the Baseball Prospectus guys.

I didn't pitch - I played outfield - I wasn't a next level talent but I LOVED the game. We just threw so much in practice every week that I didn't realize the difference between a sore arm and an injured arm. If we weren't at practice or playing a real game then we were in the yard playing tennis ball baseball or we were playing wall ball or we were having a pecan war (our subdivision was an old pecan orchard).

I threw a football maybe 4 or 5 tosses with a work colleague yesterday after the ball rolled out of the car when we got back from lunch and I felt and heard all the cracking and popping.

I don't know if the book is still relevant - it's been 20+ years so it might be dated information - but if not it might be worth checking out as a reference for someone.

---

I'm assuming the "04" in your username means you're class of 2004 which puts you at like 42-43-years old, right?

If so, that cracking & popping in your shoulder ain't from playing HS baseball. That's just part of getting old man.

Yep.

My shoulder feels like a blender full of nickels if I try to throw hard or far, doesn't matter if it's a football or a baseball. But that's due to a couple minor shoulder separations when I was still playing football. I'm amazed by the coaches who throw BP day after day to multiple kids a day.

And turning 47 in a couple months.

[This thread was fine until you posted and you are in a timeout. -Staff]

The biggest issue I see is there are more than a few systems that care more about winning rings and charging fees to make a living than they do about player development and health. I also see these kids who pick up on every off weekend, they just can't be recovering if they are going full speed for 3 to 5 games every single weekend. Rarely, is a single game of youth baseball extremely taxing, but as mentioned the cumulative effects are real, playing anything short of first base all day on Saturday, maybe pitching an inning then coming back on Sunday, and trying to pitch a full game is tough. We play for the team we play for because our coach is very aware of this stuff. He usually DHs the pitching that is coming in next and sits the pitcher he pulls. My son led the team in innings pitched, 22.2 over 5 starts and 1 close, when he pitched a complete game he spent the next game DHing, not going back out to center. We used 14 pitchers throughout the fall season.

AggieGunslinger said:

---

The biggest issue I see is there are more than a few systems that care more about winning rings and charging fees to make a living than they do about player development and health. I also see these kids who pick up on every off weekend, they just can't be recovering if they are going full speed for 3 to 5 games every single weekend. As mentioned the cumulative effects are real, playing anything short of first base all day on Saturday, maybe pitching an inning then coming back on Sunday and trying to pitch a full game is tough. We play for the team we play for because our coach is very aware of this stuff. He usually DHs the pitching that is coming in next and sits the pitcher he pulls. My son led the team in innings pitched, 22.2 over 5 starts and 1 close, when he pitched a complete game he spent the next game DHing, not going back out to center. We used 14 pitchers throughout the fall season.

---

That definitely happens. You've got to do your research.

My youngest doesn't really pitch. He's 9 and wants to learn, probably because his big brother does, but he's primarily a catcher. His new team has 12 kids and his coach has said he expects at least 10 to pitch.

With my oldest, if he throws more than 30 pitches in a day the only other position he'll play that day is first base. In that same vein, say he pitches Saturday and throws a full game with about 75-80 pitches, on Sunday he's only playing first base.

You just said exactly why teams need at least twelve players.

And again I appreciate everyone's comments and concerns. I am going to try to keep this about navigating the current structures, not just what's wrong with them. And of course about the injury. There is a lot of really great things that also happen in select baseball. Hopefully we are highlighting some things to watch out for.



Understand, and this is not directed at you, that we did all of these things pretty correctly and it still happened to my son. Though we did fall below 12 for most of the year because of other things but that will not happen again. There were, in hindsight, clear warning signs. And I did lose track of his off the field activities when the summer started. That's my fault. The warning signs were earlier in the two weeks before when he complained about fishing, then batting practice, then he grimaced when his friend gave him a high five. Little things. But throwing a ball didn't seem to bother him and it was the last tournament of the year and by the weekend he felt normal. I am not sure if pitching that last game sent him over the edge or if he was already there. It's hard to say.

The point is, and it seems obvious but its really not, there is a balance between playing through soreness and playing with elbow pain. Everyone, whether you are a gymnast, football, tennis, rec baseball, whatever, has to deal with soreness. But elbow pain is not soreness. My son kept telling me those last two weeks that he was just a little sore. I didn't recognize that he was talking about something different and I let him pitch. That's 100% on me. ANd believe me I have lost of plenty of sleep over it.

So for the parents reading this with kids stepping into baseball, whether it is league or select, read up on little league elbow and understand how to recognize the difference between soreness and injury. It could save a LOT of trouble. If your son has elbow pain he needs to stop immediately, as in do not throw another baseball, without seeing a doctor.

Oh, and if you are playing select baseball with the potential for 25 or more innings in a week, carry at least 12 kids, follow the MLB pitching guidelines, monitor his off the field activities, and don't compromise. There are plenty of teams out ther that do it right.

I know you stay on top of things and didn't mean to imply you weren't. I think that sometimes there's absolutely nothing you can do and **** just happens that way.

Like one of my oldest best friends is a soccer player so obviously that's a lot of running and agility drills. One day with no warning in practice he made a cut and felt like he was getting stabbed in the knee. No warning and no trauma to the knee either. MRI is clear and shows no damage to any tendons, ligaments, or cartilage just inflammation in the growth plates. The funny thing is that he can run in a straight line without pain but when he tries to cut it hurts him. Doctors couldn't really point to a cause other than the fact he's barely 14, still going through puberty, and growing.

It's unfortunate but it happens that way sometimes.

Like, my knees are destroyed because of football. 8 knee surgeries and at 46 I'm bone-on-bone in both knees and need them both replaced. I'm have some level of pain every day and it all stems from the first injury in 1994. But when people ask me if I'm good with my boys playing football, I am 100% good with it if that's what they want to do. And the only regret I have is that after 9/11 I couldn't pass a physical to join the military. I believe the experiences and opportunities and life-lessons far outweigh the risks.

As for the potential to play beyond HS or the pros, it's too early to say with my youngest but if my oldest continues with his work ethic and grows as projected he will 100% have the opportunity to play football or baseball in college. Maybe both and maybe not at a Power 5 program but definitely at a mid-major.

Right now he's 13 and barely hit puberty and is already 5'11" 170# and can really run while touching 80 on the bump. He's also projected to be 6'5" and won't be skinny. I would expect him to be 6'5" 235'ish his senior year.

Quote:

---

I know you stay on top of things and didn't mean to imply you weren't. I think that sometimes there's absolutely nothing you can do and **** just happens that way.

---

I know you weren't bud. Didn't mean to imply that you were.

Thanks for the post.

My son has said something similar about not wanting to be a pitcher so ha can play every day. If he is serious about that I do not see a reason for him to ever pitch again. Or at least not as a Sunday starter.

Have a great weekend.