There's no need to ban the infield shift

2,632 Views | 21 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by The Milkman
Smeghead4761
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Hitters just need to (re)learn to hit to the opposite field. Or, Heaven forbid, bunt.

The whole reason teams use the shift more is because so many more players have become one dimensional, dead pull hitters in the quest for home run power. The shift has existed for decades. Teams used it against Willie McCovey in the 60s. But back then it was just a few players. Now it's like half the league.

Every time I saw one of those infield shifts with the shortstop all by himself, way deep, halfway between second and third, I would be sitting there thinking the batter could probably bunt for a double.
The Porkchop Express
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Smeghead4761 said:

Hitters just need to (re)learn to hit to the opposite field. Or, Heaven forbid, bunt.


If every hitter could learn to hit to the opposite field consistently, every team's payroll would be $600 million because you'd have 15 guys commanding $30 million a year. It's an elite skill.

Most guys stop practicing bunting, at their coaches' request, in high school. Bunting is hard. And Aaron Judge isn't getting paid $35 million a year to hit the ball 70 feet for a single. Teams no longer play station to station. Thinking that all these big sluggers could suddenly start bunting like Pete Rose and Rod Carew isn't realistic. Maybe once in a while, but not with any sort of consistent results.

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Ag4life80
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Aaron Judge and every other player should be getting paid to do one thing - win. Whatever it takes, they should be willing to do.
McInnis
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A couple of years ago Dusty Baker was asked why the Astros never bunted and he said most of the players on the team had never bunted in their lives which amazed me. People who can hit major league hitting are some of the most skilled athletes in the word, no way I can believe they couldn't bunt if they wanted to. And a good bunter could beat the shift that way. But players perceive that home runs get the fame and big bucks so they're too stubborn to change.

To me baseball was more interesting then when more players hit for contact instead of swinging for homers and striking out most of the time. I'm glad they're banning the shift.
The Porkchop Express
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Here's a really nuanced response from former Nats' OF Daniel Murphy back in 2018 about hitting vs. the shift. Courtesy of ESPN.com.

"It's really difficult to get three hits in one inning. If you hit three singles, it's one run. If you get a walk and a double, you might get one run. If you get a double and a single, you might get one run. So my goal is to touch second base every single time I step to home plate. If I'm not mistaken, somewhere in the neighborhood of 7 percent of ground balls go for extra-base hits. If I want to touch second base, I'm not going to be able to hit the ball on the ground. Pulled ground balls are not really base hits in this league anymore.

"I haven't really stolen bases for five or six years. If I drop a bunt down, what am I gonna do? I'm stuck at first base, so what I've done is ask our ballclub to get two more singles, or I've asked someone else to hit a double. If 7 percent of balls on the ground go for extra bases, someone is probably going to have to hit one in the air to score me from first. So what I've tried to do is hit a double every single time because it's really difficult to get three hits.

"If I'm not mistaken, the level of production goes: strikeout, popup, ground ball, fly ball, line drive. The production comes mostly from fly balls and line drives, so that's what we want. I'm trying to hit a line drive first. And if I miss, I hit a fly ball. Ground balls, popups and strikeouts aren't going to give you anything. It's not necessarily rocket science.

"I'm not trying to hit it in one specific place. If I look up, and they're full-shifting me, and I only have one defender in the 5-6 hole where the third baseman plays, I have to let the ball get a little deeper. But the pitchers are pretty good, and that's now a foul ball. I'm really never in the business of trying to aim for a certain area because I have to be perfect, and I'm not perfect.

"If any of us could control hits, we would get more of them. But you can't. You can only control the process."

"When baseball started, they set players up in the positions they did because that's where they thought the ball was going to be hit. You had the first baseman and the third basemen at the corners, the middle infielders and three outfielders. There was no rule that you had to have five guys on the dirt, a catcher and three outfielders. They just set it up that way because they said, 'Hey, this is where we think we're going to hit the ball.' It's the same thing that's being done now.

"The question everybody has to ask themselves is, 'Why are we playing the game? What is the goal of the game?' I think it's to score more runs than the other team. That seems to be what organizations are trying to do. They're going to set guys up there because they think, 'This is going to help us prevent runs' and 'We're going to try and attack the baseball in this way because we think it's going to help us score runs.' That's the name of the game. I think this has been a long time in the making. It's actually been quite impressive to watch how quickly teams have adapted to the data they've got.

"The reason they shift you in the places they do is because that's what your batted ball data says. I heard Joe Maddon say, 'You have three choices: You can try to hit it and beat the shift. That's going to give you a single, but now you're doing something against what you're best at, so the defense wins. You can hit into the shift, and the defense wins. Or you can try not to let the infielders catch the batted ball. No ground balls and no popups. Try to stand on second base.' That's Option C.''
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Ag4life80
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Imo, one of the things that makes baseball the greatest game of all is the games within the game. To completely ignore beating the shift when the go ahead /winning run is in scoring position is bad baseball. When your 9 hole, .220 hitter leads off an inning and makes no effort to beat the shift, that's bad baseball. Playing to the game situation is winning baseball. Way too much whining over shifting for me. I don't agrre with infielders being forced to stay on the dirt, either.
Deluxe
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I think the shift-ban is mostly being pushed by the agents of left-handed power hitters.

Boras is right that shifts are discriminative toward lefties. Whether or not a defensive strategy should be banned in light of that... I can see both sides of the debate.
McInnis
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Ag4life80 said:

Imo, one of the things that makes baseball the greatest game of all is the games within the game. To completely ignore beating the shift when the go ahead /winning run is in scoring position is bad baseball. When your 9 hole, .220 hitter leads off an inning and makes no effort to beat the shift, that's bad baseball. Playing to the game situation is winning baseball. Way too much whining over shifting for me. I don't agrre with infielders being forced to stay on the dirt, either.
To me the very worst example is in extra innings when the home team needs only one run to win. And they're gifted the Manred runner. Bunting him over means they win on a fly ball or weak grounder. But still team's won't do it.
safety guy
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I'm not a fan of shift banning. You have 7 position players not including the pitcher and catcher. You should be able to play them wherever makes sense. It will be interesting to see teams try to get cute with the rules by having players on the edge of the position and be moving on the pitch. What I don't want is to have defined circles in the field where each position player must start each pitch.
The Porkchop Express
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safety guy said:

I'm not a fan of shift banning. You have 7 position players not including the pitcher and catcher. You should be able to play them wherever makes sense. It will be interesting to see teams try to get cute with the rules by having players on the edge of the position and be moving on the pitch. What I don't want is to have defined circles in the field where each position player must start each pitch.
I really agree with this. It's like telling a football team they couldn't blitz all 11 guys if they wanted to.
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Ag4life80
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I can foresee, in a really big pitch situation, where the shortstop playing behind the pitchers release point, breaks as the ball is pitched.
HerschelwoodHardhead
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The Porkchop Express said:

safety guy said:

I'm not a fan of shift banning. You have 7 position players not including the pitcher and catcher. You should be able to play them wherever makes sense. It will be interesting to see teams try to get cute with the rules by having players on the edge of the position and be moving on the pitch. What I don't want is to have defined circles in the field where each position player must start each pitch.
I really agree with this. It's like telling a football team they couldn't blitz all 11 guys if they wanted to.



There are a lot of rules in football regarding where players are allowed to line up. Also, the rules of football have continuously changed over the years, and defensive players are not allowed to do many things that were commonplace 10, 25, 50 years ago. This includes for entertainment purposes, as well as safety, etc.

I don't love the shift rules either, but at least baseball is finally trying something. If it sucks, they can always go back.
CampingAg
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Smeghead4761 said:

Hitters just need to (re)learn to hit to the opposite field. Or, Heaven forbid, bunt.

The whole reason teams use the shift more is because so many more players have become one dimensional, dead pull hitters in the quest for home run power. The shift has existed for decades. Teams used it against Willie McCovey in the 60s. But back then it was just a few players. Now it's like half the league.

Every time I saw one of those infield shifts with the shortstop all by himself, way deep, halfway between second and third, I would be sitting there thinking the batter could probably bunt for a double.
The average fastball isn't 90mph anymore. The technology era has benefitted pitching much more than hitting. Pitchers have the ability to locate and throw 99 on the inside corner every single pitch. 110mph line drives shouldn't be outs at the rate they are. It's a giant wet fart seeing a pitch on the inner half, the batter does what he should and hits a rocket to the pull side and the camera pans and we see the 3B is playing in RF.

cone
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you should be able to play zone in basketball

you should be able to use the shift in baseball
Quad Dog
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Harry Dunne
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HerschelwoodHardhead said:

The Porkchop Express said:

safety guy said:

I'm not a fan of shift banning. You have 7 position players not including the pitcher and catcher. You should be able to play them wherever makes sense. It will be interesting to see teams try to get cute with the rules by having players on the edge of the position and be moving on the pitch. What I don't want is to have defined circles in the field where each position player must start each pitch.
I really agree with this. It's like telling a football team they couldn't blitz all 11 guys if they wanted to.

There are a lot of rules in football regarding where players are allowed to line up. Also, the rules of football have continuously changed over the years, and defensive players are not allowed to do many things that were commonplace 10, 25, 50 years ago. This includes for entertainment purposes, as well as safety, etc.

I don't love the shift rules either, but at least baseball is finally trying something. If it sucks, they can always go back.
Main difference is that it's pretty easy to beat a defense in football if they line 11 up on the LOS.

Basically every major rule change in every major sport over the last 50 years has been to increase scoring. No one wants to see more defense and lower scores.
PatAg
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The shift sucks, and if you like it then you suck
MaroonStain
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I can't stand The Shift. Then again, I like bunting, hit and run, double steal, double plays, etc. Home runs are neat but not necessary for a great game to be played.
AustinAg2K
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The shift reminds me of Hack a Shaq in basketball. The answer to it is so obvious, but players won't do it because they deem it not important. That article from Murphy is exactly what's wrong with baseball right now. I agree with him that it's very hard to get multiple hits in a row, which is why you should take the base when it's given to you. Would he turn down an intentional walk?

Just like in basketball, there are some guys that are so incredible that you are willing to deal with the fact they are going to hit into the shift a lot. Shaq was so good, you were willing to put up with his crappy FT percentage. Aaron Judge is so good that you'll put up with him hitting into the shift. However, if you're batting .220 with 17 HRs, you're not good enough to pass on the free base. Learn to hit opposite field, or drop a bunt, take your base, and say thank you very much.

If be surprised if the stats actually say hitting into the shift is the winning way. The teams that wind up in the playoffs usually aren't teams that are just trying to mash. They usually use the whole field (see Astros).

All that said, it's clear now that the players (and teams) won't change. Because they won't change, I'm fine changing the rules.
cone
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technically, I think it's Joey Gallo who sucks
Farmer1906
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AustinAg2K said:

The shift reminds me of Hack a Shaq in basketball. The answer to it is so obvious, but players won't do it because they deem it not important. That article from Murphy is exactly what's wrong with baseball right now. I agree with him that it's very hard to get multiple hits in a row, which is why you should take the base when it's given to you. Would he turn down an intentional walk?

Just like in basketball, there are some guys that are so incredible that you are willing to deal with the fact they are going to hit into the shift a lot. Shaq was so good, you were willing to put up with his crappy FT percentage. Aaron Judge is so good that you'll put up with him hitting into the shift. However, if you're batting .220 with 17 HRs, you're not good enough to pass on the free base. Learn to hit opposite field, or drop a bunt, take your base, and say thank you very much.

If be surprised if the stats actually say hitting into the shift is the winning way. The teams that wind up in the playoffs usually aren't teams that are just trying to mash. They usually use the whole field (see Astros).

All that said, it's clear now that the players (and teams) won't change. Because they won't change, I'm fine changing the rules.
You keep calling it a free base when it clearly isn't.
The Milkman
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The Pro-Shifters want to have an entire generation of professional players change the way they play the game or develop a new skillset in order to avoid making a minor rule change. I don't get it
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