I think he was an outstanding player and maybe I'm wrong but I would have considered him very solidly in the "hall of very good."

Career .281 hitter with an .855 OPS, 316 homers, 517 doubles and 1,287 RBIs. Plus a 7x all star.

For me, the Crime Dog, is a much more defensible case with 493 HR over his career.

Thoughts?

I think, consciously or subconsciously, they couldn't have another year of no inductees outside of the Veterans Committee.

I don't think Rolen belongs either and I don't think anyone deserved it this year.

A few years ago, I heard a pod cast where they were comparing Scott Rolen's statistics (both offensive and defensive) to Hall of Famer Ron Santo. After listening to that I was inclined to think he was/is Hall of Fame worthy.

Interesting point. I wonder if more defensive guys will get elected in the coming decades because we can turn defense into statistics now.

What's weird to me about Rolen is that I think he was very underrated yet I don't think of him at all as a HOF'er.

I think he gets the benefit of the doubt for playing most of his career in Philly and St. Louis. Two very enthusiastic baseball towns with very biased media. IMHO

Compare his numbers to Jeff Kent. Makes no sense.

Rolen is Hall of Very Good.
If you have to think about or debate if someone is a HOF'er, then they aren't a HOF'er.

I have a coworker who was an MLB All Star, has a WS ring and was teammates with Baines for a while. Says he was the nicest guy he ever played with but no way a HOFer. He laughed yesterday about Rolen.

Keith Hernandez says hello.

knoxtom said:

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Rolen was one of the best defensive players ever. Not just third basemen, any position. 4 third basemen are better than all others ever defensively. Rolen, Arenado, Beltre, and Robinson. What he did for his pitchers should not be discounted.

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Great defensive players are heavily underrated unless they were equally good hitters. It's not right to say "compare him to McGriff" when you're only looking at hitting and McGriff was a bad defensive first baseman...

and he certainly was great defensively but you're forgetting a lot of great defensive third basemen and I think saying that those 4 are head and shoulders above the rest in history is an exaggeration.

Clete Boyer, Buddy Bell, Mike Schmidt?

There were even guys from Rolen's era who didn't play as well for as long but were equally good fielders in their prime.

You bring up a great point Harry. I never considered this till today...but the Baseball Hall of Fame puts a great deal of weight on the Offensive production while neglecting Defensive excellence. Keith Hernandez has 11 Gold Gloves at First Base, the most of anyone at that position. Yet his lack of home runs means he'll never get considered for the HOF. One would think the use of Analytics would play a part in HOF selection someday.

I loved Keith Hernandez. Had a great arm too! If he had been right-handed he would've probably been a third baseman and would be in the HOF!

Farmer1906 said:

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BoxingAg84 said:

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Rolen is Hall of Very Good.
If you have to think about or debate if someone is a HOF'er, then they aren't a HOF'er.

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That's not true. There is always a line and some players will be close to it.

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Rolen got 10% of the vote in his first year of eligibility.
That's not even close to your "line".

AgRyan04 said:

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I blame this on Harold Baines.

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and Tony LaRussa

I agree on HOVG, but he was one who deserved most of those gold gloves. I disagree with the poster above that said he was one of the 4 best head and shoulders above the rest, but to be fair he probably was a top 10 all-time defensive third baseman.

Hall of Very Good, similar to Biggio

TarponChaser said:

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AustinAg2012 said:

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Keith Hernandez says hello.

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I'm not sure that using other guys who shouldn't be in but got in is a good argument.

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Say what? Hernandez isn't in the HOF. And aside from power numbers (although a major barometer for position players), he has a better resume/more accolades than Rolen. I think Rolen was great, but if he made it in, Hernandez should be in, too:

He played the same number of seasons (17) and had more BB's, hits, batting titles, Gold Gloves, MVP's, and World Series rings. He finished Top 10 in MVP voting three times. Plus, less K's and a better OPS+. Oh, and he was the greatest defensive player EVER at his position. Food for thought. Carry on...

I'm not a big Billy Wagner fan. I hope he doesn't get in. I dont consider him one of the best of all time. Look at his post season stats. He has a good sample size and was horrible. Ryan pressley was more effective this year in the playoffs than Wagner was in his entire post season career. Post season is not the be all, end all, but for a closer that was in that many post season games, his stats are horrible. And for a differentiator between very good (which he was in regular season) and great, the post season stats are telling for me.

AustinAg2012 said:

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TarponChaser said:

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AustinAg2012 said:

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Keith Hernandez says hello.

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I'm not sure that using other guys who shouldn't be in but got in is a good argument.

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Say what? Hernandez isn't in the HOF. And aside from power numbers (although a major barometer for position players), he has a better resume/more accolades than Rolen. I think Rolen was great, but if he made it in, Hernandez should be in, too:

He played the same number of seasons (17) and had more BB's, hits, batting titles, Gold Gloves, MVP's, and World Series rings. He finished Top 10 in MVP voting three times. Plus, less K's and a better OPS+. Oh, and he was the greatest defensive player EVER at his position. Food for thought. Carry on...

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My bad, I could have sworn Hernandez was in.

knoxtom said:

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Rolen was one of the best defensive players ever. Not just third basemen, any position. 4 third basemen are better than all others ever defensively. Rolen, Arenado, Beltre, and Robinson. What he did for his pitchers should not be discounted.

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Rolen ranks 45th all time in dWAR (defensive wins against replacement). Among third basemen he is behind Graig Nettles, Buddy Bell, and Clete Boyer, in addition to those you mentioned. As a hitter he was Hall of Very Good worthy, so the question is whether adding his genuinely excellent fielding to the above makes him a Hall of Famer.

It is the analytic stats that take all of these things into account that led to his eventual election. Rolen ranks 10th all time amongst 3rd basemen in JAWS (a WAR based system averaging career and peak production), and 7th all time in wins above average.

AgRyan04 said:

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I blame this on Harold Baines.

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Baines was elected by a Veterans Committee stacked with his friends. Getting elected by the writers, as Rolen did, is much harder.

Baines fell off the writers ballot after 5 elections, never drawing more than 6.1% of the vote.

I think you just have to shake your head at the Committee that elected Harold Baines and move on (as the Hall did, overhauling the Veterans Committee process once again), recognizing that the VC has always been broken, oscillating wildly between "elect no one" and "elect everyone!" over the years.

If "better than Harold Baines" is the HOF standard, they're going to need a bigger plaque room.

Big difference for me in the Santo vs Rolen talk is that Santo had several top 10 MVP finishes and more All Star appearances in a shorter career. Need to mainly evaluate the player in their respective era - really hard to compare someone else who played a generation later.

knoxtom said:

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Rolen was one of the best defensive players ever. Not just third basemen, any position. 4 third basemen are better than all others ever defensively. Rolen, Arenado, Beltre, and Robinson. What he did for his pitchers should not be discounted.

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Buddy Bell was better than Scott Rolen (#25 all-time dWAR). Rolen is #45.

Bell had 6 straight GG between 1979-84. Bell had over 2500 hits. Bell had a 66 WAR. Rolen is 70. That's a wash.

Rolen had more HR. So what. Everybody does today. Bell hit 206 at a position that traditionally is not for power hitters.

94chem said:

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knoxtom said:

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Rolen was one of the best defensive players ever. Not just third basemen, any position. 4 third basemen are better than all others ever defensively. Rolen, Arenado, Beltre, and Robinson. What he did for his pitchers should not be discounted.

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Buddy Bell was better than Scott Rolen (#25 all-time dWAR). Rolen is #45.

Bell had 6 straight GG between 1979-84. Bell had over 2500 hits. Bell had a 66 WAR. Rolen is 70. That's a wash.

Rolen had more HR. So what. Everybody does today. Bell hit 206 at a position that traditionally is not for power hitters.

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The difference between Rolen & Bell's ability to get on base and hit for power make it not very close.

OPS isn't the greatest stat, but we're talking .747 vs .855.

OPS+ is much better and we're still talking 122 vs 109.

If you just take their top stretch 77-84 & 97-04 it's 120 vs 133.

Farmer1906 said:

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BoxingAg84 said:

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Rolen is Hall of Very Good.
If you have to think about or debate if someone is a HOF'er, then they aren't a HOF'er.

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That's not true. There is always a line and some players will be close to it.

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Yeah, there was no logic to be found in that post.