Judge should be -- and is -- AL MVP

4,580 Views | 55 Replies | Last: 4 mo ago by MAT
Goodson
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Aaron Judge is and rightfully should be the American League's Most Valuable Player.

Shohei Ohtani is and rightfully should be the American League's Player of the Year -- if such an award existed.

Without Judge's contributions, the Yankees wouldn't have finished with one of the AL's two best records.

With Ohtani, the Angels finished 33 games behind the team that won their division and only 13 games better than their last place team.

Point being this: "Valuable" should be marked by a clear, quantifiable contribution that moves a person or team toward being the best in their respective arena/field of competition.

One cannot argue with the "once in a generation" skills Ohtani displayed this year. But their value to moving his team toward the top? Not so much. And if you removed his contributions to the Angels? They would have still finished near the bottom portion of the AL West standings.

So, proportionally, they produced less value to the Angels than Judge's did for the Yankees.
Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others think you are.
astros4545
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K

Go back to New York and **** da Yankees


Astros sons gonna be grounded again
The Porkchop Express
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This did not need its own thread.
BadAggie
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Shrek is on roids you communist.
BMX Bandit
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Way to go out on a limb
07ag
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https://ts.la/eric59704
Moe Jzyslak
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Take Judge off the Yankees and add Shohei, and they still finish 2nd in the AL and win the East.

Take Shohei off the Angels and give them Judge, and the Angels still finish 3rd (maybe even 4th) in the West, and the Angels lose a top 5 Pitcher in the AL.
Farmer1906
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I see this silly argument a lot.



Where in the definition does it mean, should be on a good team.

Good teams are rewarded with trips to the playoffs and byes. The MVP is not a team award.

Ohtani is the best player because he's essentially two elite players in one. It's a cheat code. He should win the MVP every season if he's anywhere near this 2021 or 2022 output.
The Porkchop Express
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Sorta like when they gave it to people other than Jordan once he started winning titles. They just got bored. So they let Barkley win it in 96 and Malone in like 97 or 98.
Mathguy64
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I know we have been round and round about this but I'll throw this out again.

Swap Judge and Ohtani.

Do the Yankees make the playoffs? Yes. Do the Yankees win the East? I don't think so. Ohtani either doesn't hit regularly or Stanton doesn't. Both DH and Ohtani doesn't play in the field at all. So the Yankees lose a CF/RF every day player and replace him with a lesser player while not getting an equivalent hitter all while Ohtani (or Stanton) sits. It makes the Yankees worse.

Do the Angels make the playoffs with Judge? No. They are horrible. Will they win more? Probably not as they lose a #1 starter. But they would score more runs and on the days Ohtani doesn't pitch they likely win some in there.

Put Judge on the Astros. They win 120 games. He's replacing a hole in CF. It's a huge addition.

Put Ohtani on the Astros. He hits where? For Yordan? Yeah, no. He replaces Garcia in the pitching rotation? As a pitcher he was good but how much better than Garcia? Maybe 2-3 wins. Maybe.

Judge had a top 10 ever season. His production was off the charts. He's the most valuable player. The Angels have two guys who will finish top 5 in MVP voting and they lost 90 games. Take them off and they lose 100. What's the difference? They aren't providing value to the team. They have great stats but they have no value.

Ohtani is a freak. But he's not moving the needle on his team.
Farmer1906
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Go back and reread the definition of valuable and tell me what Judge is doing yet somehow Ohtani is not. I think the Yankees would win more games with Ohtani.
Mathguy64
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Straight swap for them? Not a chance. Ohtani makes their rotation better but he doesn't play in the field. So the Yankees lose a full time OFer. Ohtani DHs only. So either Stanton doesn't hit at all or they juggle their OF, Stanton and his often pulled muscles play in the field full time (and he misses even more time on the ail from the inevitable pulled quad) and they have another weaker OF in there full time. Their hitting lineup is worse. They lose all of Judge's production with no replacement.
Farmer1906
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That's just situational for the particular lineup. I bet if you switch Maldonado & Vazquez for Judge the Astros lose more games because we don't have another catcher on the roster. I guess 2 average to below-average catchers are better than Judge.
Mathguy64
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Fine. Leave Judge on the Yankees and just add Ohtani.

He literally takes Stanton out of the lineup. And that's an even swap as offensively Stanton has essentially the same numbers and in fewer games because Stanton spent time on the IL. The Yankees get an advantage with Ohtani pitching and would win more but only a marginal bump. No different than him replacing Garcia for us. You get a marginal bump.

Straight adding Ohtani to the Yankees I don't think they are the 1 seed. It would be closer but I don't think he makes them 7 games better. Just my $0.02.
Moe Jzyslak
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Farmer1906
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Mathguy64 said:

Fine. Leave Judge on the Yankees and just add Ohtani.

He literally takes Stanton out of the lineup. And that's an even swap as offensively Stanton has essentially the same numbers and in fewer games because Stanton spent time on the IL. The Yankees get an advantage with Ohtani pitching and would win more but only a marginal bump. No different than him replacing Garcia for us. You get a marginal bump.

Straight adding Ohtani to the Yankees I don't think they are the 1 seed. It would be closer but I don't think he makes them 7 games better. Just my $0.02.
Marginal bump?

He's going to finish top 10 (maybe top 5) in the Cy Young.
Moe Jzyslak
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Much more than a marginal bump. Shohei finished:

4th in the AL in Wins (stupid stat, I know)
5th in the AL in WHIP
6th in the AL in H/9
1st in the AL in K/9
4th in the AL in ERA
5th in the AL in HR/9
4th in the AL in ERA+
2nd in the AL in FIP


Ohtani is an elite hitter and an elite Pitcher.

Like you said previously - if he keeps putting up seasons like this, he should win MVP every year with no question. He's doing things that have literally never been done before.
astros4545
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Only someone from New York could think this
Proposition Joe
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It's most valuable player in the league.

Not most valuable player to a specific team.
BMX Bandit
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Dear Voter:
There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.

The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:

1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.
3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.
4. Former winners are eligible.
5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.
The Porkchop Express
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Glenn Davis and Mike Scott should have finished ahead of Mike Schmidt for the 1986 NL MVP, just saying.
htxag09
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Ohtani is the most valuable player. Plain and simple. Is he the best hitter? No? Should he win a cy young? No. But the fact that he's even in the discussion for both means he's mvp.

If you look at it honestly and without bias, really don't see how you can't agree.
Buck Compton
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Mathguy64 said:

Fine. Leave Judge on the Yankees and just add Ohtani.

He literally takes Stanton out of the lineup. And that's an even swap as offensively Stanton has essentially the same numbers and in fewer games because Stanton spent time on the IL. The Yankees get an advantage with Ohtani pitching and would win more but only a marginal bump. No different than him replacing Garcia for us. You get a marginal bump.

Straight adding Ohtani to the Yankees I don't think they are the 1 seed. It would be closer but I don't think he makes them 7 games better. Just my $0.02.
It has nothing to do with Stanton. I don't see where your mental block is.

Regardless of what the rest of the Yankees lineup looks like, if you're building from scratch for a single year, regardless of contract status, who is more valuable?

Answer the two catchers question.
Mathguy64
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Buck Compton said:

Mathguy64 said:

Fine. Leave Judge on the Yankees and just add Ohtani.

He literally takes Stanton out of the lineup. And that's an even swap as offensively Stanton has essentially the same numbers and in fewer games because Stanton spent time on the IL. The Yankees get an advantage with Ohtani pitching and would win more but only a marginal bump. No different than him replacing Garcia for us. You get a marginal bump.

Straight adding Ohtani to the Yankees I don't think they are the 1 seed. It would be closer but I don't think he makes them 7 games better. Just my $0.02.
It has nothing to do with Stanton. I don't see where your mental block is.

Regardless of what the rest of the Yankees lineup looks like, if you're building from scratch for a single year, regardless of contract status, who is more valuable?

Answer the two catchers question.


It has everything to do with Stanton. You can't just add Ohtani to the Yankees. If he plays there someone had to come off. Ohtani is strictly a DH as a hitter. So he replaces whoever their DH is.

Make that change. Are the Yankees better? Is Ohtani that valuable that they get better? I'm suggesting as a hitter they won't.

ETA. Starting from scratch I'm not sure I select Ohtani. I'm not discounting his ability as a hitter or pitcher. He's a freak. But if he gets hurt your team loses him for both spots. You have to make 2 roster moves to replace him. So now you have to take another player off your team to get back a pitcher and hitter. It's an issue to consider.

And the catcher question is idiotic. Judge isn't being asked to replace a catcher. Much less two.
Proposition Joe
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Mathguy64 said:

I know we have been round and round about this but I'll throw this out again.

Swap Judge and Ohtani.

Do the Yankees make the playoffs? Yes. Do the Yankees win the East? I don't think so. Ohtani either doesn't hit regularly or Stanton doesn't. Both DH and Ohtani doesn't play in the field at all. So the Yankees lose a CF/RF every day player and replace him with a lesser player while not getting an equivalent hitter all while Ohtani (or Stanton) sits. It makes the Yankees worse.

Do the Angels make the playoffs with Judge? No. They are horrible. Will they win more? Probably not as they lose a #1 starter. But they would score more runs and on the days Ohtani doesn't pitch they likely win some in there.

Put Judge on the Astros. They win 120 games. He's replacing a hole in CF. It's a huge addition.

Put Ohtani on the Astros. He hits where? For Yordan? Yeah, no. He replaces Garcia in the pitching rotation? As a pitcher he was good but how much better than Garcia? Maybe 2-3 wins. Maybe.

Judge had a top 10 ever season. His production was off the charts. He's the most valuable player. The Angels have two guys who will finish top 5 in MVP voting and they lost 90 games. Take them off and they lose 100. What's the difference? They aren't providing value to the team. They have great stats but they have no value.

Ohtani is a freak. But he's not moving the needle on his team.

So by this logic...

Ohtani isn't as valuable because if you swap he and Judge the Yankees make the playoffs but maybe don't win the East.

But Judge is valuable because if you put him on the Astros they win 120 games... which does nothing for the playoff positioning at all?

Seems like you are picking and choosing where to apply your twisted logic.
Buck Compton
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Mathguy64 said:

Buck Compton said:

Mathguy64 said:

Fine. Leave Judge on the Yankees and just add Ohtani.

He literally takes Stanton out of the lineup. And that's an even swap as offensively Stanton has essentially the same numbers and in fewer games because Stanton spent time on the IL. The Yankees get an advantage with Ohtani pitching and would win more but only a marginal bump. No different than him replacing Garcia for us. You get a marginal bump.

Straight adding Ohtani to the Yankees I don't think they are the 1 seed. It would be closer but I don't think he makes them 7 games better. Just my $0.02.
It has nothing to do with Stanton. I don't see where your mental block is.

Regardless of what the rest of the Yankees lineup looks like, if you're building from scratch for a single year, regardless of contract status, who is more valuable?

Answer the two catchers question.


It has everything to do with Stanton. You can't just add Ohtani to the Yankees. If he plays there someone had to come off. Ohtani is strictly a DH as a hitter. So he replaces whoever their DH is.

Make that change. Are the Yankees better? Is Ohtani that valuable that they get better? I'm suggesting as a hitter they won't.

ETA. Starting from scratch I'm not sure I select Ohtani. I'm not discounting his ability as a hitter or pitcher. He's a freak. But if he gets hurt your team loses him for both spots. You have to make 2 roster moves to replace him. So now you have to take another player off your team to get back a pitcher and hitter. It's an issue to consider.

And the catcher question is idiotic. Judge isn't being asked to replace a catcher. Much less two.
That's all relative bull****, frankly. You're looking for the most valuable individual player in the league. Why does that depend on who else they're playing with?

Let's take your terrible example further... Say the Yankees said **** the luxury tax and their farm system and signed/traded for Judge, Stanton, Ramirez, Altuve, and Trout and had a rotation of JV, Cole, McClanahan, Cease, and Framber. Now because they're loaded at the positions, Ohtani isn't valuable? You're just saying he wouldn't add much value to the Yankees. Because they're already loaded. Which I'm not even trying to argue with.

You're not measuring total value. You're measuring marginal value to a specific team (in this case, the Yankees). Which is ridiculous. You'd have to do that for every team. You would have to then also measure marginal value for Judge on every other team and compare those.

No one is saying Ohtani is making the Yankees better in their specific situation. You may be right that Judge helps the Yankees more than Ohtani. But Ohtani might help 27 of the other 30 clubs more. So which is more important?
astros4545
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If Judge and Ohtani switched teams

Then the Angels would have lost probably 20 extra games

Judge is a terrible pitcher I would have to assume...THere is 30 losses right there when he pitches every 5th day
amercer
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Just give it to whoever has the most WAR. Pretty sure adding wins is the definition of value in sports.
10andBOUNCE
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amercer said:

Just give it to whoever has the most WAR. Pretty sure adding wins is the definition of value in sports.

This was my thought as well. Judge is at 10.6 vs Ohtani at 9.6.
Farmer1906
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bWAR or fWAR?
10andBOUNCE
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That was B. It's an even bigger lead on fangraphs.
MosesHallRAB04
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Regardless of who actually is more valuable Judge will 100% win it. It could even be unanimous.

If I were a manager facing him in the playoffs I'd strongly consider IBBing him every at bat if the game is close. Make someone else beat you.
htxag09
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10andBOUNCE said:

amercer said:

Just give it to whoever has the most WAR. Pretty sure adding wins is the definition of value in sports.

This was my thought as well. Judge is at 10.6 vs Ohtani at 9.6.

I'm not going to pretend to understand the full complexity of WAR. But, unless I'm mistaken, I just don't think it's really meant for a two way player. Hard to translate. For example, doesn't ohtani get negative points since the majority of his AB's are DH? I mean that makes sense for someone like Yordan. But not someone pitching every 5 days.
cdhaggie07
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Not a yankee fan at all, but it should definitely go to Judge this year. Came within a couple of hits of winning the triple crown, had one of the largest HR differentials (difference between 1st and 2nd most) we've seen in a long time, and was the clear driving force of a division winner.

Ohtani is absolutely doing things that should be impossible and an anomaly in the matrix, but he's not the 2022 MVP
10andBOUNCE
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Ohtani gets WAR added for pitching, so he's getting his stats counted as a two way player.

IMO his only case is looking at from the baseball business standpoint and how valuable it is to have one player fill two sets of shoes at an elite level.

I don't necessarily understand all the intricacies of WAR either but Judge has the edge and for that reason I'd give it to him. I think it wouldn't be outlandish for Ohtani but Judge is the winner for me.
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