Kent, Schilling, Wagner, & Sheffield should be in the HOF

1,541 Views | 13 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Farmer1906
Farmer1906
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AG
Konerko, like Berkman last year, should not have been 1 and done.
Fuzzy Dunlop
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AG
Disagree on Kent and Wagner, though my mind could possibly be changed.

Kent's overall numbers are good and he was MVP in 2000 but I don't think they rise to the level of HOF. He is top 150 in most statistical categories. Has a good RBI number but 2400 hits keeps him out.

Wagner has a better case than Kent but looking through his seasons, he compares to Hoffman only three seasons and the rest he is a really good closer but I don't think HOF.

I think Schilling has a better case than Sheffield but both should be in.

Farmer1906
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AG
What Kent's problem is that he's compared to everyone else, he may or may not be good enough. But for some reason, myself included in the past, we don't just compare him the second baseman. His numbers stack up well compared to Morgan, Sandberg, & Biggio.

If you say closers shouldn't be in the HOF I won't argue with you. They aren't that valuable. But when you start letting them in, I cannot understand why you draw the line at Wagner. He doesn't have the counting #s that Hoffman or Riveria do, but he's very comparable when you look at ERA, WHIP, K/9, and the most common pitching metrics.
Fuzzy Dunlop
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AG
I agree with you on all those points. My thing is, and I said it on the HOF ballot thread, is that I'm a small Hall person. I think at some point it becomes the Hall of Very Good, not the best at the time. It seems like writers today feel like they HAVE to vote for ten players. I do think Closers should be in the HOF and Wagner's save numbers are certainly up there.

I'm not sure you can ever make a case for Kent or Wagner ever being the best in their time. I think Wagner has a better case than Kent. But that also depends on what statistics/categories you are comparing. I think Wagner is overshadowed by Hoffman I think and that will hurt him and that might not be fair.

Like I said, I could possibly be convinced but I'm just not there right now.
W
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AG
Jeff Kent is a strange case.

in one sense he doesn't belong in the discussion of all-time great second basemen, because he was put there in order to do the least amount of damage to his team defensively. In 1998 he played 134 games at 2B and committed 20 errors. Not good.

he was a regular starter / contributor for 6 different teams. That's a lot of labels on a suitcase for a great player.

which brings up Sheffield. Obviously Balco is a huge problem. But he played on 8 different teams in his career...and 4 or 5 different teams in his prime.

most Hall of Famers don't move around that much. Teams recognize their value and elite skills and want to keep them. As opposed to willingly letting them move on
Farmer1906
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AG
Kent's #s

Counting (rank for 2B 1950+)
ABs- 8498 (9th)
Hits - 2461 (8th)
Runs - 1320 (6th)
RBI - 1518 (1st by a large margin)
HR - 377 (2nd)

Averages (rank for 2B 1950+) - min 5000 AB
AVG - .290 (16th tied)
OBP - .356 (28th tied)
SLUG - .500 (1st tied)
OPS - .855 (1st)

Newer Metrics (rank for 2B 1950+) - min 5000 AB
wRC+ - 123 (6th)
wRAA - 292.4 (4th)
wOBA - .367 (3rd)

I think it's pretty clear to say he's a top 10, maybe top 5 second baseman of the last 70 years. Maybe the best power-hitting 2B ever.
the last of the bohemians
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None of them pass the smell test, but they let Larry Walker in.
I see Kent as most likely of those 4.
Farmer1906
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the last of the bohemians said:

None of them pass the smell test, but they let Larry Walker in.
I see Kent as most likely of those 4.
Schilling is at 70% after 8 years. I would expect him to top 75% next year when no one major is added to the candidates and he nears the end of his run.

As for Walker, his 965 OPS is higher than Willie Mays, David Ortiz, Vald, Chipper, Arod, Hank, Pujols, and some giants of baseball.
the last of the bohemians
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Career road OPS for walker is 865 though.
You're right, Schilling probably gets in, but he falls in the very good not great part of the smell test.
Fat Bib Fortuna
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I can't believe Schilling hasn't gotten in yet. just the winning percentage alone (216-146) is way up there, dominant until his late 30s, post-season win-loss is 11-2 with an ERA of 2.23. Three-time runner-up for Cy Young. I guess he's getting the cold shoulder for being an a-hole?

Kent suffers from never being the best guy on his own team, even when he won MVP, it was like everyone was just tired of it being Barry Bonds every year so they tossed it to Kent, sort of like the years in the MVP when Barkley or Malone won MVP instead of Michael Jordan. Seriously look at the splits for 2000 MVP

Kent: 33 HR, 125 RBI, .334/.424/.596/1.021
Bonds: 49 HR, 106 RBI, .306/.440/.688/1.127

Wagner is in what Mickey Hersokwitz used to call "The Hall of Very Good" He's sixth all time in saves, but he's 230 behind Rivera and 189 behind Hoffman. John Franco is 2 saves ahead of him and he is not in the HOF either.
Marvin
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Hard to argue with some of those numbers for Kent. He always struck me as a Hall of Very Good candidate, but I have real basis for that devaluing.

I assume Wagner just has a longevity issue in terms of "electability"

Schilling should be in.
Farmer1906
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20 years ago people put a lot more emphasis on Average and RBIs.
Farmer1906
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Saves is a pretty terrible metric. I know it's what closers are judged on, but you gotta look deeper than that.
the last of the bohemians
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I forget that Mike Mussina is in, so by that standard Schilling should definitely be in.
Farmer1906
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AG
Yankee special
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