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You're right. The others are whining because they think the cheating keeps them from being able to post pictures of trophies.

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For most people with a conscience, it does.

But yall seem to be a special breed.

Bones08 said:

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SquirrellyDan said:

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Bones08 said:

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Philip J Fry said:

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Losers rarely get accused of cheating.

No doubt many other teams were doing this too.

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This is such a lazy defense. There is video and audio evidence along with confessions that the Astros were cheating. I need similar evidence to include other teams as cheating. Maybe this evidence will arrive in due time. Boston is certainly in the cross hairs.

But to say "no doubt" many other teams were doing this too is just a gigantic leap to a conclusion that I can only imagine certain people are repeating to themselves to help justify what their team did.

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Except there is no doubt. Unfortunately, nobody cares what similar evidence you need to see. I've said this in other posts:

Either more teams will be implicated and this will blow up, or nobody else will and this will pass by like a fart in the wind, doing nothing but motivating the Astros to be even better this year.

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In your opinion if many more teams are not implicated does that mean that the teams were still cheating and nobody could track down the evidence to bust them or that there were in fact not many other teams cheating?

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It means the evidence either wasn't tracked down or wasn't pursued. You can find articles before this whole fiasco where players and managers across the league talk about the lengths they go to in order to prevent sign stealing, traditional or otherwise, beginning in 2014 . Anyone who thinks this was limited to BoSox and Astros are just being silly.

In case you're interested....https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2855354-you-cant-trust-nobody-inside-mlbs-war-on-high-tech-sign-stealing

SquirrellyDan said:

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Bones08 said:

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SquirrellyDan said:

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Bones08 said:

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Philip J Fry said:

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Losers rarely get accused of cheating.

No doubt many other teams were doing this too.

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This is such a lazy defense. There is video and audio evidence along with confessions that the Astros were cheating. I need similar evidence to include other teams as cheating. Maybe this evidence will arrive in due time. Boston is certainly in the cross hairs.

But to say "no doubt" many other teams were doing this too is just a gigantic leap to a conclusion that I can only imagine certain people are repeating to themselves to help justify what their team did.

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Except there is no doubt. Unfortunately, nobody cares what similar evidence you need to see. I've said this in other posts:

Either more teams will be implicated and this will blow up, or nobody else will and this will pass by like a fart in the wind, doing nothing but motivating the Astros to be even better this year.

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In your opinion if many more teams are not implicated does that mean that the teams were still cheating and nobody could track down the evidence to bust them or that there were in fact not many other teams cheating?

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It means the evidence either wasn't tracked down or wasn't pursued. You can find articles before this whole fiasco where players and managers across the league talk about the lengths they go to in order to prevent sign stealing, traditional or otherwise, beginning in 2014 . Anyone who thinks this was limited to BoSox and Astros are just being silly.

In case you're interested....https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2855354-you-cant-trust-nobody-inside-mlbs-war-on-high-tech-sign-stealing

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Thanks for the article. Good read.

It does make me wonder, if the assumption that most teams cheat is true, the Astros sure seemed to pick an pretty obvious method of doing it (trashcan banging). I feel that within a day of the news of the Astros cheating first breaking that people were able to track down a pretty substantial amount of evidence.

I suppose the error in my thinking is that if other teams were cheating that people would track down similar evidence for them as well, but there's also a good chance that they picked a more sophisticated method - or at the very least a method that can't be easily picked up via game replays. Because I do believe that if other teams were banging trash cans that it would already have been discovered.

Overall I'm still skeptical of the idea that it is many teams cheating using technology in real time. Or maybe I'm just naive and too optimistic.

Bones08 said:

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SquirrellyDan said:

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Bones08 said:

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SquirrellyDan said:

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Bones08 said:

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Philip J Fry said:

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Losers rarely get accused of cheating.

No doubt many other teams were doing this too.

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This is such a lazy defense. There is video and audio evidence along with confessions that the Astros were cheating. I need similar evidence to include other teams as cheating. Maybe this evidence will arrive in due time. Boston is certainly in the cross hairs.

But to say "no doubt" many other teams were doing this too is just a gigantic leap to a conclusion that I can only imagine certain people are repeating to themselves to help justify what their team did.

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Except there is no doubt. Unfortunately, nobody cares what similar evidence you need to see. I've said this in other posts:

Either more teams will be implicated and this will blow up, or nobody else will and this will pass by like a fart in the wind, doing nothing but motivating the Astros to be even better this year.

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In your opinion if many more teams are not implicated does that mean that the teams were still cheating and nobody could track down the evidence to bust them or that there were in fact not many other teams cheating?

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It means the evidence either wasn't tracked down or wasn't pursued. You can find articles before this whole fiasco where players and managers across the league talk about the lengths they go to in order to prevent sign stealing, traditional or otherwise, beginning in 2014 . Anyone who thinks this was limited to BoSox and Astros are just being silly.

In case you're interested....https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2855354-you-cant-trust-nobody-inside-mlbs-war-on-high-tech-sign-stealing

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Thanks for the article. Good read.

It does make me wonder, if the assumption that most teams cheat is true, the Astros sure seemed to pick an pretty obvious method of doing it (trashcan banging). I feel that within a day of the news of the Astros cheating first breaking that people were able to track down a pretty substantial amount of evidence.

I suppose the error in my thinking is that if other teams were cheating that people would track down similar evidence for them as well, but there's also a good chance that they picked a more sophisticated method - or at the very least a method that can't be easily picked up via game replays. Because I do believe that if other teams were banging trash cans that it would already have been discovered.

Overall I'm still skeptical of the idea that it is many teams cheating using technology in real time. Or maybe I'm just naive and too optimistic.

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Honestly, I don't know if it was utilized by all teams, but when people are saying it was done in the 80's with a light out in center field and a camera zoomed in on catcher, I find it hard to believe it was just the Astros and BoSox begining in 2017.

Fair enough.

I hope that the MLB continues investigating teams and begins taking serious action to try to fight back against this going into the upcoming season.

Wabs said:

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Bones08 said:

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Philip J Fry said:

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Losers rarely get accused of cheating.

No doubt many other teams were doing this too.

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This is such a lazy defense. There is video and audio evidence along with confessions that the Astros were cheating. I need similar evidence to include other teams as cheating. Maybe this evidence will arrive in due time. Boston is certainly in the cross hairs.

But to say "no doubt" many other teams were doing this too is just a gigantic leap to a conclusion that I can only imagine certain people are repeating to themselves to help justify what their team did.

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Won't know for sure until the MLB investigates any team accused of cheating just as vigorously as they did the Astros. Would be some fun times ahead if MLB actually would do this. Not holding my breath. They found their team to make an example of and now they'll go back to normal business, at least until someone knocks out the Yankees in consecutive years.

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I think they will figure out how to circle the wagons and wind this hysteria down. They don't have the resources to investigate every team. It would take them close to two years just to review the supposed eight teams given to them by the Astros.

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So, basically the same as every single player who has ever played for the Colorado Rockies.

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It's crazy how many titles that sort of advantage at home has got the Rockies.

03_Aggie said:

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Wabs said:

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Bones08 said:

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Philip J Fry said:

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Losers rarely get accused of cheating.

No doubt many other teams were doing this too.

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This is such a lazy defense. There is video and audio evidence along with confessions that the Astros were cheating. I need similar evidence to include other teams as cheating. Maybe this evidence will arrive in due time. Boston is certainly in the cross hairs.

But to say "no doubt" many other teams were doing this too is just a gigantic leap to a conclusion that I can only imagine certain people are repeating to themselves to help justify what their team did.

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Won't know for sure until the MLB investigates any team accused of cheating just as vigorously as they did the Astros. Would be some fun times ahead if MLB actually would do this. Not holding my breath. They found their team to make an example of and now they'll go back to normal business, at least until someone knocks out the Yankees in consecutive years.

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I think they will figure out how to circle the wagons and wind this hysteria down. They don't have the resources to investigate every team. It would take them close to two years just to review the supposed eight teams given to them by the Astros.

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The way they'll "figure out a way to wind it down" will be to just ignore it and move on. Which would be grossly unfair given the punishment handed to the Astros, the ensuing calls to strip away their title, and the embarrassment of the whole thing. Not to mention taking away 2 years worth of top draft picks. The time it takes to investigate should not be a factor. MLB thought it was important enough to take the time for the Astros. It's only fair that they treat all teams the same going forward. Like I said, not holding my breath....

Wabs said:

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03_Aggie said:

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Wabs said:

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Bones08 said:

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Philip J Fry said:

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Losers rarely get accused of cheating.

No doubt many other teams were doing this too.

---

This is such a lazy defense. There is video and audio evidence along with confessions that the Astros were cheating. I need similar evidence to include other teams as cheating. Maybe this evidence will arrive in due time. Boston is certainly in the cross hairs.

But to say "no doubt" many other teams were doing this too is just a gigantic leap to a conclusion that I can only imagine certain people are repeating to themselves to help justify what their team did.

---

Won't know for sure until the MLB investigates any team accused of cheating just as vigorously as they did the Astros. Would be some fun times ahead if MLB actually would do this. Not holding my breath. They found their team to make an example of and now they'll go back to normal business, at least until someone knocks out the Yankees in consecutive years.

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I think they will figure out how to circle the wagons and wind this hysteria down. They don't have the resources to investigate every team. It would take them close to two years just to review the supposed eight teams given to them by the Astros.

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The way they'll "figure out a way to wind it down" will be to just ignore it and move on. Which would be grossly unfair given the punishment handed to the Astros, the ensuing calls to strip away their title, and the embarrassment of the whole thing. Not to mention taking away 2 years worth of top draft picks. The time it takes to investigate should not be a factor. MLB thought it was important enough to take the time for the Astros. It's only fair that they treat all teams the same going forward. Like I said, not holding my breath....

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I don't disagree. I don't think this was news to MLB. Unfortunately we were the one that had a former player go public with it. That forced their hand.

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The way they'll "figure out a way to wind it down" will be to just ignore it and move on

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They won't be able to...mainly because the Astros are too good. It will be a storyline ALL season. When they make the playoffs and are a favorite for the title, people will cry that it wasn't severe enough.

diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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The way they'll "figure out a way to wind it down" will be to just ignore it and move on

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They won't be able to...mainly because the Astros are too good. It will be a storyline ALL season. When they make the playoffs and are a favorite for the title, people will cry that it wasn't severe enough.

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You're saying the Astros will win, regardless if they cheat. Agreed. True now, true in 2017.

diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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So, basically the same as every single player who has ever played for the Colorado Rockies.

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It's crazy how many titles that sort of advantage at home has got the Rockies.

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Because that's the standard, right? No title equals the means not needing to be justified... aka the Rangers rampant steroid abuse. Juan Gonzalez, MVP. Alex Rodriguez, MVP. Josh Hamilton, MVP. But, but, but, those teams didn't win a title so it was ok. No harm no foul to all the clean players and teams that were cheated out of their rightful recognition by doing things the "right" way. Oh the humanity!! And don't even start with that joke of a pathetic franchise signing Sammy Sosa in 2007 even after knowing all the steroid abuse.

Yeah, keep talking that righteous BS. Hypocrites.

Marvin said:

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diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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So, basically the same as every single player who has ever played for the Colorado Rockies.

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It's crazy how many titles that sort of advantage at home has got the Rockies.

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Because that's the standard, right? No title equals the means not needing to be justified... aka the Rangers rampant steroid abuse. Juan Gonzalez, MVP. Alex Rodriguez, MVP. Josh Hamilton, MVP. But, but, but, those teams didn't win a title so it was ok. No harm no foul to all the clean players and teams that were cheated out of their rightful recognition by doing things the "right" way. Oh the humanity!! And don't even start with that joke of a pathetic franchise signing Sammy Sosa in 2007 even after knowing all the steroid abuse.

Yeah, keep talking that righteous BS. Hypocrites.

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Um, there were no clean teams during the steroid era. Bags, Cami and others said hi.

My Dad Earl said:

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Ouch

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He was actually a much better hitter on the road in 2017. The whole team seemed to play better on the road. This doesn't absolve them of cheating, but anyone that thinks that Altuve's success primarily depended on some sign stealing scheme is simply not paying attention.

Altuve 2017 Splits(BA/OPS)
Home: .311/.834
Away: .381/1.081

I distinctly remember the Astros thread mentioning how terrible our batting looked at home during the season at times. One of the theories revolved around the new batting eye in centerfield.

KT 90 said:

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Marvin said:

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diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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So, basically the same as every single player who has ever played for the Colorado Rockies.

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It's crazy how many titles that sort of advantage at home has got the Rockies.

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Because that's the standard, right? No title equals the means not needing to be justified... aka the Rangers rampant steroid abuse. Juan Gonzalez, MVP. Alex Rodriguez, MVP. Josh Hamilton, MVP. But, but, but, those teams didn't win a title so it was ok. No harm no foul to all the clean players and teams that were cheated out of their rightful recognition by doing things the "right" way. Oh the humanity!! And don't even start with that joke of a pathetic franchise signing Sammy Sosa in 2007 even after knowing all the steroid abuse.

Yeah, keep talking that righteous BS. Hypocrites.

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Um, there were no clean teams during the steroid era. Bags, Cami and others said hi.

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You mean how there are no clean teams during the electronic sign stealing era?

The biggest factor in any 10-12 game stat split for one single player is random chance

JJxvi said:

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The biggest factor in any 10-12 game stat split for one single player is random chance

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That's not true. Nobody ever goes through slumps and you know it. Cheater.

Some people show that as long as you win, methods don't matter. Cheating is fine.

Look at that banner at MMP with pride.

And before y'all saying anything, I'm not a Ranger fan and I denounce all Ranger wins done via cheating!

DallasAggie97 said:

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Some people show that as long as you win, methods don't matter. Cheating is fine.

Look at that banner at MMP with pride.

And before y'all saying anything, I'm not a Ranger fan and I denounce all Ranger wins done via cheating!

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The same way the Yankees, Red Sox and other teams do that won WS with steroid users on their roster. Knowing the pitch aids in individual player performance, as does steroids.

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You're saying the Astros will win, regardless if they cheat. Agreed. True now, true in 2017.

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No. They have a good and talented team. A team that could win the WS if they didn't cheat. We have no idea if they will win. They should have won in 2019. They have a worse team than 2019.

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Because that's the standard, right? No title equals the means not needing to be justified... aka the Rangers rampant steroid abuse. Juan Gonzalez, MVP. Alex Rodriguez, MVP. Josh Hamilton, MVP. But, but, but, those teams didn't win a title so it was ok. No harm no foul to all the clean players and teams that were cheated out of their rightful recognition by doing things the "right" way. Oh the humanity!! And don't even start with that joke of a pathetic franchise signing Sammy Sosa in 2007 even after knowing all the steroid abuse.

Yeah, keep talking that righteous BS. Hypocrites.

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Again, just beating the **** out of that strawman.

Cheating in any sense has long reaching effects and should be considered. Nothing in the steroid era has any relevance to your cheating though.

I don't think anyone would cry over stripping MVPs from known steroid abusers.

diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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Because that's the standard, right? No title equals the means not needing to be justified... aka the Rangers rampant steroid abuse. Juan Gonzalez, MVP. Alex Rodriguez, MVP. Josh Hamilton, MVP. But, but, but, those teams didn't win a title so it was ok. No harm no foul to all the clean players and teams that were cheated out of their rightful recognition by doing things the "right" way. Oh the humanity!! And don't even start with that joke of a pathetic franchise signing Sammy Sosa in 2007 even after knowing all the steroid abuse.

Yeah, keep talking that righteous BS. Hypocrites.

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Again, just beating the **** out of that strawman.

Cheating in any sense has long reaching effects and should be considered. Nothing in the steroid era has any relevance to your cheating though.

I don't think anyone would cry over stripping MVPs from known steroid abusers.

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Does knowing the pitch aid in individual player performance? If yes, does that individual's improved performance contribute to the team's success (like winning a WS)?

<copy> <paste>

Does taking PEDs aid in individual player performance? If yes, does that individual's improved performance contribute to the team's success (like winning a WS)?

The pitch fork mob clamoring for the Astros to be stripped of their title because they "wouldn't have won it without cheating" need to apply the same standard to all teams that won with cheaters (looking at you Yankee cry babies).

diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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The pitch fork mob clamoring for the Astros to be stripped of their title because they "wouldn't have won it without cheating" need to apply the same standard to all teams that won with cheaters (looking at you Yankee cry babies).

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I'm still now sure how you think this is a defense for what your team did.

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Nah, I just love how we have all of these self-righteous fans piling on the Astros, acting like their teams have never cheated. Even though there is evidence of using technology to steal signs going back 30+ years. I agree with the punishment handed to the Astros, so not trying to defend them. However I do feel it would be very unfair to not investigate all other teams accused of using technology (and there are plenty of other teams that allegedly did).

https://www.crawfishboxes.com/2020/1/20/21070757/sign-stealing-scandal-houston-astros-yankees-red-sox-brewers-cubs-phillies-mets-dodgers-rangers-mlb

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