DallasAg 94 said:

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So, it is your opinion Chipper should be considered higher on the "All Time greatest 3rd Basemen list, than Beltre?

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God damn, you sure do love to whittle an argument down to some obscure detail and then tailor your data to fit that. ESPN would love you.

aggie1906 said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Ag_07 said:

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Ah OK. I completely misread that. I thought you said it was an offense-only position. I missed the 'not' in your post.

That's why I was thinking 'WTF?'

No one is arguing you guys that he's Top 5 but I think some are looking a bit too hard to try and push him to 1 or 2.

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Oh, I'd put him #3, but could definitely understand if someone wanted to put Boggs higher. I think Schmidt and Brett are the top 2, but I do think by the end of it all, numbers 2-4 are going to be pretty interchangeable. The only name I've seen higher than him in some lists that I strongly disagree w/ is Chipper.

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As a Chipper hater, I think he should easily go over Beltre in 3B rankings. His combo of avg, power, and a great eye is damn impressive. Reminds me of Bagwell.

Jones
.303
.401
.529
.930

B****
.297
.408
.540
.948

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So you don't value defense?

aggie1906 said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Ag_07 said:

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Ah OK. I completely misread that. I thought you said it was an offense-only position. I missed the 'not' in your post.

That's why I was thinking 'WTF?'

No one is arguing you guys that he's Top 5 but I think some are looking a bit too hard to try and push him to 1 or 2.

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Oh, I'd put him #3, but could definitely understand if someone wanted to put Boggs higher. I think Schmidt and Brett are the top 2, but I do think by the end of it all, numbers 2-4 are going to be pretty interchangeable. The only name I've seen higher than him in some lists that I strongly disagree w/ is Chipper.

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As a Chipper hater, I think he should easily go over Beltre in 3B rankings. His combo of avg, power, and a great eye is damn impressive. Reminds me of Bagwell.

Jones
.303
.401
.529
.930

B****
.297
.408
.540
.948

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Again, 3B isn't an offense-only position. It's not like a DH. Yes, Jones has great offensive numbers, but there couldn't be a wider range of talent/performance between Beltre and Chipper when it comes to defense. Chipper was a better hitter. Beltre was a exponentially better fielder. It reminds me of when people want to put Piazza ahead of Pudge by focusing solely on one aspect of the game.

jkag89 said:

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On the same level as Eddie Mathews just below Schmidt and Brett which I rate as 1A and 1B but above Brooksie, Boggs & Chipper.

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I would agree with this, although I left Mathews off my personal rankings because he was far before my time (so was Brooks, but his defense was so legendary, I had to include). I would have been speaking in ignorance on him. Chipper is the Mike Piazza of 3rd basemen. Elite offense, mediocre (at best) defense.

_lefraud_ said:

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aggie1906 said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Ag_07 said:

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Ah OK. I completely misread that. I thought you said it was an offense-only position. I missed the 'not' in your post.

That's why I was thinking 'WTF?'

No one is arguing you guys that he's Top 5 but I think some are looking a bit too hard to try and push him to 1 or 2.

---

Oh, I'd put him #3, but could definitely understand if someone wanted to put Boggs higher. I think Schmidt and Brett are the top 2, but I do think by the end of it all, numbers 2-4 are going to be pretty interchangeable. The only name I've seen higher than him in some lists that I strongly disagree w/ is Chipper.

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As a Chipper hater, I think he should easily go over Beltre in 3B rankings. His combo of avg, power, and a great eye is damn impressive. Reminds me of Bagwell.

Jones
.303
.401
.529
.930

B****
.297
.408
.540
.948

---

So you don't value defense?

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I do, but IMO Beltre's defensive edge over Chipper isn't worth .110 in career OPS.

let's get serious here...Beltre has two...only two...top 5 MVP finishes in 20 years. And one of those was the highly suspicious 2004 season.

he was a very consistent player, but hardly ever elite.

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Mike Schmidt won 3 MVP awards and finished in the top 5 five times in his 18-year career including 12 all-star appearances.

George Brett won an MVP award and finished in the top 5 four times in his 21-year career including 13 all-star appearances. Plus 3 batting titles.

Miguel Cabrera's seasons at 3B were better (including his triple crown season).

Ditto for the 4 years Pete Rose played third base. In fact Rose had 2 top 5 MVP finishes in those 4 seasons.

and of course Boggs blows away Beltre too with his 5 batting titles and 12 all-star appearances.

in fact it could be argued that Ken Boyer was a better 3rd baseman...with his 5 gold gloves, 7 all-star appearances, and 1964 AL MVP award

and of course there's the aforementioned Chipper Jones and Brooks Robinson

On a side note, this is one of those things I love about baseball stats. Anyone can cherry pick any stat to try to make a case in their favor.

Never saw Mathews play either. My assessment of him is through the eyes of relatives that saw him during his prime with the Milwaukee Braves. In their eyes his ability was below Aaron but above other Milwaukee baseball HoFers, Yount and Molitor.

aggie1906 said:

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_lefraud_ said:

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aggie1906 said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Ag_07 said:

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Ah OK. I completely misread that. I thought you said it was an offense-only position. I missed the 'not' in your post.

That's why I was thinking 'WTF?'

No one is arguing you guys that he's Top 5 but I think some are looking a bit too hard to try and push him to 1 or 2.

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Oh, I'd put him #3, but could definitely understand if someone wanted to put Boggs higher. I think Schmidt and Brett are the top 2, but I do think by the end of it all, numbers 2-4 are going to be pretty interchangeable. The only name I've seen higher than him in some lists that I strongly disagree w/ is Chipper.

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As a Chipper hater, I think he should easily go over Beltre in 3B rankings. His combo of avg, power, and a great eye is damn impressive. Reminds me of Bagwell.

Jones
.303
.401
.529
.930

B****
.297
.408
.540
.948

---

So you don't value defense?

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I do, but IMO Beltre's defensive edge over Chipper isn't worth .110 in career OPS.

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It would be worth noting that your are penalizing Beltre for his youth:
1998 (19): .648 OPS
1999 (20): .780 OPS
2000 (21): .835 OPS
2001 (22): .720 OPS
2002 (23): .729 OPS
2004 (24): .714 OPS
Career .820.
And then having to play 715G in Seattle (.759 OPS).

Compare to Chippers: Career OPS: .930
1993 (21): 4 PAs
1994 (22): NA
1995 (23): 1st full MLB season.

Wait, so you want to discount the first 6 years of Beltre's career because he was "young" and he played in Seattle?

W said:

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let's get serious here...Beltre has two...only two...top 5 MVP finishes in 20 years. And one of those was the highly suspicious 2004 season.

he was a very consistent player, but hardly ever elite.

----------

Mike Schmidt won 3 MVP awards and finished in the top 5 five times in his 18-year career including 12 all-star appearances.

George Brett won an MVP award and finished in the top 5 four times in his 21-year career including 13 all-star appearances. Plus 3 batting titles.

Miguel Cabrera's seasons at 3B were better (including his triple crown season).

Ditto for the 4 years Pete Rose played third base. In fact Rose had 2 top 5 MVP finishes in those 4 seasons.

and of course Boggs blows away Beltre too with his 5 batting titles and 12 all-star appearances.

in fact it could be argued that Ken Boyer was a better 3rd baseman...with his 5 gold gloves, 7 all-star appearances, and 1964 AL MVP award

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About those Boggs batting titles. He hit 26 HRs combined in 4 of those and 24 HRs in the 5th.

W said:

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let's get serious here...Beltre has two...only two...top 5 MVP finishes in 20 years. And one of those was the highly suspicious 2004 season.

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And about that 2004 season.

TOTALLY Legit.

BowSowy said:

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Wait, so you want to discount the first 6 years of Beltre's career because he was "young" and he played in Seattle?

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I'm making the point that he said I'm penalizing Chipper BECAUSE Beltre had a longer career, so I'm arguing that he is penalizing Beltre FOR having a longer career.

And for the record...

I'd put Eddie Mathews ('52-68) and Brooks Robinson ('55-'77, 15 Consecutive ASs and 16 Consecutive GGs) among the Top5. I've never seen either play (AFAIK, on Robinson), but generationally... you have to include Mathews.

I think Schmidt, Boggs & Beltre are among the next group to consider of the next generation.

I think Brett spent too much time away from 3B, and IIRC, it was pretty controversial when they moved him.

When all is said, I think Beltre will be considered a generational player. He will likely finish in the Top10 All-Time Hits in MLB. He is 314 away.

DallasAg 94 said:

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aggie1906 said:

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_lefraud_ said:

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aggie1906 said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Ag_07 said:

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Ah OK. I completely misread that. I thought you said it was an offense-only position. I missed the 'not' in your post.

That's why I was thinking 'WTF?'

No one is arguing you guys that he's Top 5 but I think some are looking a bit too hard to try and push him to 1 or 2.

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Oh, I'd put him #3, but could definitely understand if someone wanted to put Boggs higher. I think Schmidt and Brett are the top 2, but I do think by the end of it all, numbers 2-4 are going to be pretty interchangeable. The only name I've seen higher than him in some lists that I strongly disagree w/ is Chipper.

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As a Chipper hater, I think he should easily go over Beltre in 3B rankings. His combo of avg, power, and a great eye is damn impressive. Reminds me of Bagwell.

Jones
.303
.401
.529
.930

B****
.297
.408
.540
.948

---

So you don't value defense?

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I do, but IMO Beltre's defensive edge over Chipper isn't worth .110 in career OPS.

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It would be worth noting that your are penalizing Beltre for his youth:
1998 (19): .648 OPS
1999 (20): .780 OPS
2000 (21): .835 OPS
2001 (22): .720 OPS
2002 (23): .729 OPS
2004 (24): .714 OPS
Career .820.
And then having to play 715G in Seattle (.759 OPS).

Compare to Chippers: Career OPS: .930
1993 (21): 4 PAs
1994 (22): NA
1995 (23): 1st full MLB season.

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Why would I just ignore 5 seasons. As a young 5 or 6 year vet he should have been hitting his prime. Instead he had (is having) a very very late prime.

BMX Bandit said:

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With his offense & defense ability, don't see how you possibly rank outside top 5

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It's why I never understood Chipper being in the conversation. Elite bat, but sub-replacement level defender. I would imagine "greatest 3B ever" (or any position for that matter) would be based on offense and defense.

RetiredAg said:

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BMX Bandit said:

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With his offense & defense ability, don't see how you possibly rank outside top 5

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It's why I never understood Chipper being in the conversation. Elite bat, but sub-replacement level defender. I would imagine "greatest 3B ever" (or any position for that matter) would be based on offense and defense.

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Yet he's still an overall 85 WAR player, which is why he correctly is in the conversation.

Anyone after is meaningless. EOT

TXAggie2011 said:

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RetiredAg said:

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BMX Bandit said:

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With his offense & defense ability, don't see how you possibly rank outside top 5

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It's why I never understood Chipper being in the conversation. Elite bat, but sub-replacement level defender. I would imagine "greatest 3B ever" (or any position for that matter) would be based on offense and defense.

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Yet he's still an overall 85 WAR player, which is why he correctly is in the conversation.

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Which is why I said he's an elite bat. But when discussing who are the greatest 3B of all-time, some prefer to just focus on offensive stats, and ignore the fact that Chipper was a sub-replacement level fielder. Given that there are other elite bats in the conversation, albeit perhaps not to his level, I give more value to the well-rounded overall player. I don't have an issue if you want to put him at #5, but I wouldn't go any higher than that. He's very similar to Piazza in that regard.

Smith&Co1970 said:

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Anyone after is meaningless. EOT

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Agreed. Like I said earlier, I think 2-4 are pretty interchangeable, but Schmidt is the best.

Quote:

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But when discussing who are the greatest 3B of all-time, some prefer to just focus on offensive stats, and ignore the fact that Chipper was a sub-replacement level fielder. Given that there are other elite bats in the conversation, albeit perhaps not to his level, I give more value to the well-rounded overall player.

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You do you, but give me the guys who give me the best chance to win.

Chipper's bat was consistently elite among elite and the glove was good enough to not bite much into the offense so that all the numbers say he gave you about as good a chance to win as any other 3rd baseman that's ever played.

FWIW, Chipper is one of Schmidt's top 10 similar players according to Baseball Reference.

Guys in front of Chipper are Matthews, Sosa, Mantle, Killebrew, McCovey, Banks, Jackson and Stargell.

Quote:

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Brett was so awesome at 3B, that they played him at DH

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I would ignore DH as that could have been a "half" day off. The other thing you could look at is how many of those games were in September with the Royals way ahead in the standings. The Royals owned the West for most of the last half of the 70s and first half of the '80s. I think they won like 6 or 7 West division titles in that time frame. Conservatively, that's 100 games that Brett could have played another position for a whole host of reasons:

-- keep his bat on a "rest" day
-- play a called up 3B
-- the 3B behind Brett was better than the 1B behind the starter

Who knows. It really isn't that great of an argument unless you know the full story.

Smith&Co1970 said:

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Anyone after is meaningless. EOT

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How long did he play? Looks about 50 in that photo.

seventeen seasons

Robinson, Beltre, Schmidt, Mathews. Pick your order

Bench, Berra, Pudge. Pick your order.

Honestly one of the most fun guys to watch play, still gives 110% even as a veteran, but also has fun doing it

The_Accountant15 said:

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Honestly one of the most fun guys to watch play, still gives 110% even as a veteran, but also has fun doing it

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Agreed. He's become my most favorite player ever. I've yet to meet a baseball fan that doesn't like Beltre. The best free agent signing in Rangers history.

There is a valid, albeit very small argument to discounting Beltre's Seattle numbers because that was before they moved in the fences. Seriously hampered his power numbers having to play half his games in that cavern before they moved the walls in slightly.

gtaggie_08 said:

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There is a valid, albeit very small argument to discounting Beltre's Seattle numbers because that was before they moved in the fences. Seriously hampered his power numbers having to play half his games in that cavern before they moved the walls in slightly.

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Yep. He'd have easily reached 500 if not for Seattle. He may do it anyways. Has to be one of the most underappreciated (future) first ballot HOFer ever.