My fear of BP overuse is starting to manifest itself.

We can't go the rest of the year with our 3/4/5 guys only going 5 innings each night. Paulino did pretty well last night going 5 2/3 IIRC.

But that's killer right there and it's not going to get any better with Morton, Musgrove, and McHugh coming back from injuries. If that keeps up it won't matter who we have in the pen they'll be gased as all get out come Oct.

We got beltran back, why not Clemens and Pettitte too? between the two of them we could get like, 7 good pitches every 4 nights.

I agree.

I mean there's Tony Watson, but he's blown more saves than Giles. He's far from lock down

One train of thought is simply acquire a solid BP arm and not lock into one dedicated closer. That just adds another bridge piece and shortens the game that much more.

Bud Norris?

Dude already has 11 saves and his numbers actually look pretty good.

over-the-walls-Chad-Qualls?

Just a few options as far as closer trade candidates. And this not looking at contracts and in depth numbers but just looking at potential guys on teams that could be sellers.

Bud Norris - Big risk I think. Plus he's a huge DB but could be cheap
Alex Colome - Yes please. Make a package with Tucker and Martes for him and Archer. Tucker/Martes/Reed/Fischer/Davis and call it a day
Mark Melancon - Eh...
Kelvin Hererra - I'd take him
Roberto Osuna - Like him a lot too

Tongue in cheek. Essentially give them what they want and address you're two biggest needs. I wouldn't be opposed to it.

Problem is looking at the standings they are only 3 back of the WC so I'm not so sure they're going to be sellers.

mazag08 said:

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Ag_07 said:

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Just a few options as far as closer trade candidates. And this not looking at contracts and in depth numbers but just looking at potential guys on teams that could be sellers.

Bud Norris - Big risk I think. Plus he's a huge DB but could be cheap
Alex Colome - Yes please. Make a package with Tucker and Martes for him and Archer. Tucker/Martes/Reed/Fischer/Davis and call it a day
Mark Melancon - Eh...
Kelvin Hererra - I'd take him

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Is my sarcasm detector working properly? This is a joke right?

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If you got both Colome and Archer you would have to consider that deal.

Lurker here, so take it easy on me.

I'm not going to get too excited about last night, because games like this happen over the course of a long season. Hell, they were due for one, and I'm just glad it happend to a team outside the division.

Anyway, maybe it's not the arms that are in the pen, but it's the order A.J. is using them. I think Devo, being your best reliever, should move into the closer's role, and use Harris as your 8th inning guy. On nights that Devo isn't available, use Harris as the closer, and use Giles as your set-up guy. I realize Giles has only blown 2 save opportunities, but I just don't feel as confident with him on the mound as much as I do when Harris or Devo are out there.

You have a 99 mph fastball and a nasty slider/curve...

Seems pitchers these days are all trying to trick the hitters, vs just throw your best pitch. Giles was pissed after the homer and thru gas, it was unhittable.

Comes back out and throws nothing but curves, gives up a hit then a homer. Drives me insane!!!!!!!!!!!! Your a freaking FLAME thrower, you can throw 100 with movement. Throw the heat, mix in the curve. Quite throwing the curve and mixing in the heat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cause they are sitting dead RED on your curve...

I think the way devo has been used all season is the way to go. Hold leads and come in to put out fires. If you save him for just the 9th and put in Giles or Sipp or whoever earlier and they give up a lead, then you've saved Devo for no reason.

He only gave up one HR and he didn't pitch after it. Also Giles can't throw a FB with movement.

The problem last night was him not burying the slider. He kept throwing it in the strike. Whether that was a call or a mistake I don't know but even at 0-2 he was throwing it in the zone. Bury the SOB in the dirt and get a chase. I'd be interesting to see if results of our BP are different with McCann v Gattis catching. Maybe McCann calls for the slider in the dirt and makes it known to Giles that he needs to throw it hard and low. Those would be interesting numbers to see.

The problem with putting Devo in closer role is that pigeon holes you into sometime not using him. For example Giles went 7 days without an appearance because there was no save opp. I don't want Devo sitting there not being used. That's the big criticism of those who oppose the closer role.

LC Wannabe said:

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Lurker here, so take it easy on me.

I'm not going to get too excited about last night, because games like this happen over the course of a long season. Hell, they were due for one, and I'm just glad it happend to a team outside the division.

Anyway, maybe it's not the arms that are in the pen, but it's the order A.J. is using them. I think Devo, being your best reliever, should move into the closer's role, and use Harris as your 8th inning guy. On nights that Devo isn't available, use Harris as the closer, and use Giles as your set-up guy. I realize Giles has only blown 2 save opportunities, but I just don't feel as confident with him on the mound as much as I do when Harris or Devo are out there.

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I actually agree with this "currently" (not after a trade is made) but here is the problem. Hinch will never do it and now your "stopper" role has gone from great to subpar while elevating the closers role. The only way to fix this is to make a move.

-gregerson and Sipp are almost unuseable in tight games

-Harris, Hoyt and giles while their numbers are "good" I personally just don't feel like you can give them the ball and they can go get you an out. They are constantly working themselves into trouble and getting hit hard.

No relief pitcher is going to be flawless but you can't have one reliable arm with filthy stuff and the rest of your bullpen hit and miss most nights. That might work in the regular season but in the post season that will get you sent home early.

I've mentioned Watson and Harrera before but you add either one of those pieces (or someone similar) and this bullpen dynamic does a 180.

The problem with Giles is that his fastball doesn't have any movement. He throws 97-100 mph, but it's flat. Big league hitters can barrel-up plus velocity with zero movement. When he isn't throwing his slider for a strike, hitters can eliminate that pitch, and sit dead-red. Harris is only 91-94, but his ball cuts just enough to miss the barrel. That's why you rarely see Harris get squared up, and when he does it's usually a lefty that yanks it foul.

I agree, but Giles has to be able to throw the slider for a strike, or he becomes a 1 pitch guy. That is when he really gets hit hard. It just needs to be a quality strike, and not a "get me over" slider.

You are correct about him needing to bury his slider in plus counts. His problem last night was that it was backing up on him, and it sped up the bat.

Ag_07 said:

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Bud Norris?

Dude already has 11 saves and his numbers actually look pretty good.

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Not sure if serious?

Isn't there more than one Bud Norris? Are you talking about the guy who used to pitch for the Astros?

I wouldn't be happy with it just because it's Bud Norris and I hate him, but he's done pretty well for the Angels in that role.

Ag_07 said:

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I wouldn't be happy with it just because it's Bud Norris and I hate him, but he's done pretty well for the Angels in that role.

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May I ask why you hate Bud Norris?

Ag_07 said:

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He threw a child-like tantrum and threw some shade at the team when he was traded. He acted like a complete deek.

IIRC I Think he also acted like that when he didn't get a big enough deal or something like that.

Bottom line was that he acted like a DB on his way out of town.

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Gotcha. I didn't catch that. I just remember him being gone the next season. He seemed alright but at the same time, it doesn't totally surprise me that he did that. But I think he liked being on this team, so..

Yeah he was pretty good and he did enjoy being here.

Again, I can't remember exactly but he said something along the lines of "I deserve better because I gutted out some rough times and they don't treat their players with the respect." He came off as very entitled.

I don't think he saw eye to eye with #theprocess.

Quote:

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"I think it's a culture shock,'' Norris said. "This is America's game. This is America's pastime, and over the last 10-15 years we've seen a very big world influence in this game, which we as a union and as players appreciate. We're opening this game to everyone that can play. However, if you're going to come into our country and make our American dollars, you need to respect a game that has been here for over a hundred years, and I think sometimes that can be misconstrued. There are some players that have antics, that have done things over the years that we don't necessarily agree with.

"I understand you want to say it's a cultural thing or an upbringing thing. But by the time you get to the big leagues, you better have a pretty good understanding of what this league is and how long it's been around.''

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https://www.google.com/amp/blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2015/09/30/ex-astro-bud-norris-raises-eyebrows-with-remarks-on-baseballs-cultural-divide/amp/

Wow. He definitely speaks his mind.

And was he saying singleton got shafted? If so, c/lol

rosco511 said:

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Ag_07 said:

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Just a few options as far as closer trade candidates. And this not looking at contracts and in depth numbers but just looking at potential guys on teams that could be sellers.

Bud Norris - Big risk I think. Plus he's a huge DB but could be cheap
Alex Colome - Yes please. Make a package with Tucker and Martes for him and Archer. Tucker/Martes/Reed/Fischer/Davis and call it a day
Mark Melancon - Eh...
Kelvin Hererra - I'd take him
Roberto Osuna - Like him a lot too

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This is where I believe us fans show our confirmation bias with Giles. If you actually look at the numbers of these other guys, it is definitely clear that none of these guys separate themselves from Giles, and aside for Osuna, could be argued that Giles has actually performed the best this season. Herrera has been terrible. Ultimately, none of these guys are proven sure things like a Wade Davis or a Chapman.

I think in the postseason you will see a definite change in how the bullpen is used. I could see Devo going 2 to 3 innings and actually finishing the game if needed. Every bullpen and pitcher gives up runs, it is just that natural bias as a fan to believe an actually good and reliable bullpen pitcher (such as in the case of Harris) cannot be counted on because largely only remember the failures.

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oldschool87 said:

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You have a 99 mph fastball and a nasty slider/curve...

Seems pitchers these days are all trying to trick the hitters, vs just throw your best pitch. Giles was pissed after the homer and thru gas, it was unhittable.

Comes back out and throws nothing but curves, gives up a hit then a homer. Drives me insane!!!!!!!!!!!! Your a freaking FLAME thrower, you can throw 100 with movement. Throw the heat, mix in the curve. Quite throwing the curve and mixing in the heat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cause they are sitting dead RED on your curve...

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The Royals announcers were talking about that last night. Hudler specifically said he was surprised to see so many breaking balls to Merrifield, who made him pay with the bases clearing double.

Herrara did the same thing Monday night. Threw a slider (which has been a bad pitch for him all season) and gives up a 3-run shut pretty much sealing the win for the Astros. Hudler said the same thing about that pitch).