Lots of good things out of tonight. Ross had a much needed solid outing and the bullpen didn't really come close to giving up a run. Beltre is a beast. That's 22 RBIs in 23 games played this season.

Ah, baseball. A 13-9 game with your ace pitcher on the mound, then a 2-1 game with a rook.

free_mhayden said:

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Texas is going to have a Top 5 pitcher all-time, Top 5 catcher all-time and Top 5 3rd baseman all-time wearing their cap in Cooperstown.

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It is kinda nice. We could argue, but Beltre is likely to be Top 2-3. Pudge is likely Top 2-3.

And to mix it up even more... Consider Andrus. He has 1261 Games at SS. At the age of 28.

If you look at GP by SS, he has 1296, which is 137th in MLB. MYoung, for example is listed ahead of him, but MYoung only has 783 Gs as a SS.

Cal Ripken is #1, listed with 3001 G, and 2297 G as a SS.
Omar Vizquel is #2 listed with 2968 G, and 2649 G as a SS.

ARod listed 5th with 2784 G, only had 1264 Gs @ SS.

If Andrus averages 150 Gs @ SS for the duration of his contract... through 2023 (6 more years after 2017)... that's 6X150+76, that's 976 Gs. Add that to the 1261 and you are looking at 2237 Games at SS, by the time he is 35.

He'll be Top20 for Gs played by a SS (including all positions), and could be Top10 for Gs as a SS.

Not to take anything away from the other two, but Pudge is extra special since he was home grown

This draws me offsides everytime, but I just can't agree that Nolan Ryan is a top 5 pitcher. I don't even think he's top 5 of my lifetime.

hawk1689 said:

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This draws me offsides everytime, but I just can't agree that Nolan Ryan is a top 5 pitcher. I don't even think he's top 5 of my lifetime.

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Name your 5 then. For both lists.

Let's see where Nolan Ryan is in terms of stats.

GS:
#1 Cy Young: 815
#2 Nolan Ryan: 773
#3 Don Sutton: 756
#4 Greg Maddux: 740
#5 Phil Niekro: 716

Wins:
#1 Cy Young: 511
#2 Walter Johnson: 417
#8 Greg Maddux: 355
#9. Clemens: 354* Known roider
#14 Nolan Ryan: 324
Wins are tough because it used to be Scorer's discretion on W, even if he left a guy tied. Now a SP must pitch 5.0 IP, to be eligible. Once their team loses the lead, they can't get the W, except in isolated situations.

SOs:
#1 Nolan Ryan: 5714
#2 Randy Johnson: 4875
#3 Roger Clemens: 4672*
#7 Don Sutton: 3574
#10 Greg Maddux: 3371
#11 Phil Niekro: 3342

Shutouts:
#1 Walter Johnson: 110 ('07-'27) he was 6'1"
#2 Grover Alexander: 90 ('11-'30) he was 6'1"
#3 Christy Mathewson: 79 ('00-'16) he was 6'2"
#4 Cy Young: 76 ('90-'11) he was 6'2"
#5 Eddie Plank: 69 ('01-'17) he was 6'0"
#6 Warren Spahn: 63 ('42-'65) he was 6'0"
#7 Nolan Ryan: 61 ('66-'93) he was 6'2"
#7 Tom Seaver: 61 ('67-'86) he was 6'1"

No hitters:
#1 Nolan Ryan: 7
#2 Sandy Koufax: 4
#3 Bob Feller: 3
#3 Larry Corcoran: 3
#3 Cy Young: 3
25 Pitchers with 1

Innings Pitched:
#1 Cy Young: 7356
#2 Pud Galvin: 5941.1 <- 5'8". Pitched 1879 to 1892
#3 Walter Johnson: 5914.1
#4 Phil Niekro: 5404.1
#5 Nolan Ryan: 5386

He is right there among some of the greats.

He has shown longevity (#2 in GS), dominance (#1 in Ks), precision (#1 in No Hitters).

Regarding Pud Galvin, above.
He went 66 GS in 1879, 65 were CG.
He went 75 GS in 1883, with 72 CG
In 1884 he went 72 GS, 71 CG with a 1.99 ERA and 46 Ws, 12 Shutouts. That is Softball'ish.

hawk1689 said:

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This draws me offsides everytime, but I just can't agree that Nolan Ryan is a top 5 pitcher. I don't even think he's top 5 of my lifetime.

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He is no worse Top 3 in your lifetime.

MSFC Aggie said:

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jtstanley4621 said:

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Sweet Jesus the K numbers today are outrageous. Almost as high as last night with less ABs

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1 TB 769
2 MIL 746
3 OAK 709
4 SD 709
5 TEX 702
.
.
.
.
30 HOU 526

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Something definitely changed. I remember not too long ago when the astros led the league in strikeouts.

DallasAg 94 said:

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hawk1689 said:

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This draws me offsides everytime, but I just can't agree that Nolan Ryan is a top 5 pitcher. I don't even think he's top 5 of my lifetime.

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He is no worse Top 3 in your lifetime.

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Ehhhhhh.

Johnson, Martinez, Maddox looking at the more recent folks..not to mention folks like Clemens...will be interesting where some of the guys still playing end up.

This gets debatable real fast.

_lefraud_ said:

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Nolan Ryan has 7 no hitters, the next closest is 4.
He has an additional 12 one hitters. Over 60+ shuouts and over 5700 strikeouts. If that isn't a top 5 pitcher of all time, much less one in your lifetime, I don't know what to tell ya.

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61 is tied with a contemporary of his that I didn't even mention in the above post for 7th all time. And 27 years for Nolan to do it.

And ERA, WHIP, that stuff matters alongside how difficult it was to hit Nolan.

gigem1223 said:

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Rook?

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Tyson Ross is not a rookie? My mistake.

TheAngelFlight said:

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_lefraud_ said:

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Nolan Ryan has 7 no hitters, the next closest is 4.
He has an additional 12 one hitters. Over 60+ shuouts and over 5700 strikeouts. If that isn't a top 5 pitcher of all time, much less one in your lifetime, I don't know what to tell ya.

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61 is tied with a contemporary of his that I didn't even mention in the above post for 7th all time. And 27 years for Nolan to do it.

And ERA, WHIP, that stuff matters alongside how difficult it was to hit Nolan.

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Don't be obtuse. The guy pitched in 4 different decades and had an ERA just over 3. He was the greatest strikeout pitcher the game has ever seen. He also took 20 something more games into the 7th inning before giving up a hit. Those "contemporaries" you mentioned all played before WWII.

Clayton Kershaw is the active leader of shutouts with 15. So at best, he might end up with half as many shutouts as Ryan ended with. Interesting enough, Derek Holland has 8 compared to Cole Hamels 7...

I think the contemporary he mentioned was Tom Seaver.

Kershaw (29) is very dominant. Some perspective...

Career
Nolan: 9.5 SO9, Led league 12 times in SO, and had over 10.0 for a season avg 9 times.

Kershaw: 9.8 SO9, Led league 2 times in SO, and had over 10.0 for a season avg 4 times.

GS Career:
Nolan: 773 Career GS (807 G), 5386.0 IP, 222 CG
Kershaw (29): 279 Career GS (281 G), 1869.1 IP, 24 CG

GS Seasons:
Nolan: 39, 39, 41, 39, 37. 10 Seasons with 34 or more GS. Led league in Ks 11 times
Kershaw: 33 (4 times). Led league in Ks 3 times

Durability:
Nolan has 34 non GS, and I'm not going to ind all of them. I will do this... He had 31 of those with the Mets, so I'll exclude the time with the Mets, so I can provide the 3 GS with Cal. They are - 2 in '73 (Gm 27, 2.0 IP, & Gm 116, 0.1 IP) and 1 in '74 (Gm104, 1.2 IP)
GS/IP:
Cal: 288 GS, 2177.1 IP-3 = 7 2/3 IP/GS
Houston: 282 GS, 1854.2 IP = 6 2/3 IP/GS
Texas: 129 GS, 840.0 IP = 6 2/3 IP/GS
Totals: 699 GS, 4872 IP => 7.0 IP

Kershaw's 2 non GS appearances were early in his career. Game #162 in 2008, RP appearance of 1.0 IP. Game 151 in 2009, RP appearance of 2.0 IP. So, in his 279 GS, he has gone 1866.1 IP, or 6 2/3 IP/GS.

Some other fun facts...

In 1974, Nolan pitched games of 13.0, 10.0, 11.0, 10.0.

It will be interesting to see if Kershaw can maintain his numbers. He has a LONG way to go, to reach Nolan, IMO.

Quote:

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Let's see where Nolan Ryan is in terms of stats.

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Losses:

292 - 3rd all time

Winning Percentage:

.526 - not in the top 100 all time

WHIP:

1.25 - 278th all time

RA9-WAR:

89.5 - 25th all time

Leads the MLB record book in Walks & Wild Pitches

Allowed 1.75 SB/9 and a SB success rate of 75% (that's about 5% worse than the average pitcher in his era)



He was a phenomenally successful pitcher. He was without question a Hall of Famer and an all time great. He was incredibly unique and we'll probably never see another pitcher like him. But there is no way in hell he was a top 5 pitcher of all time, and in all likelihood he places somewhere between 20-25 all time when you take off your rose-tinted glasses.

I'm certainly in the camp that Ryan wasn't the "greatest ever"... And I probably wouldn't even put him Top 3... But once you get to Top 5 you'd find not a lot of people agree with you leaving him out.

What the overall #'s lack, the singular achievements (no-hitters, 1-hitters) more than make up for.

free_mhayden said:

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I'm certainly in the camp that Ryan wasn't the "greatest ever"... And I probably wouldn't even put him Top 3... But once you get to Top 5 you'd find not a lot of people agree with you leaving him out.

What the overall #'s lack, the singular achievements (no-hitters, 1-hitters) more than make up for.

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Like this list of top 10 RHPs that didn't even include Ryan?

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/page/mlbrank_top100righthandedpitchers/ranking-top-10-right-handed-pitchers-ever

They ranked him #50 overall, right after Feller and Lefty Grove which put him as the #11 RHP and the #17 overall starting pitcher.

Nolan Ryan was the strikeout king, but not many ardent fans of baseball outside of Texas are going to include him in their top 5's.

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/mlb/texas-rangers/foul-territory-blog/article158555704.html

Came here to post this link. Interesting stuff on Chirinos playing everyday (which I am still in favor of) and Odor's struggles.

Also, just to weigh in on the Nolan Ryan Debate. The Ks and no-hitters alone, along with longevity of pitching 27 years, is enough to declare he is the greatest of all-time.

Quote:

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Losses:

292 - 3rd all time

Winning Percentage:

.526 - not in the top 100 all time

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One thing you have to remember about these numbers is that he didn't get a lot of run support during his days with the Angels. He lost quite a few games in his prime by scores of 1-0 or 2-1, etc. He did his part but his offense didn't offer much support.

Kampfers said:

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free_mhayden said:

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I'm certainly in the camp that Ryan wasn't the "greatest ever"... And I probably wouldn't even put him Top 3... But once you get to Top 5 you'd find not a lot of people agree with you leaving him out.

What the overall #'s lack, the singular achievements (no-hitters, 1-hitters) more than make up for.

---

Like this list of top 10 RHPs that didn't even include Ryan?

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/page/mlbrank_top100righthandedpitchers/ranking-top-10-right-handed-pitchers-ever

They ranked him #50 overall, right after Feller and Lefty Grove which put him as the #11 RHP and the #17 overall starting pitcher.

Nolan Ryan was the strikeout king, but not many ardent fans of baseball outside of Texas are going to include him in their top 5's.

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Again, it comes down to entirety of career, players at their peak, and individual achievements.

Historically I've been on the other side of the Ryan debate (that he's nowhere near best all-time). But I'd wager there's enough people that include him in their "Top 5 all time" to avoid getting into a long debate over it.

Kampfers said:

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free_mhayden said:

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I'm certainly in the camp that Ryan wasn't the "greatest ever"... And I probably wouldn't even put him Top 3... But once you get to Top 5 you'd find not a lot of people agree with you leaving him out.

What the overall #'s lack, the singular achievements (no-hitters, 1-hitters) more than make up for.

---

Like this list of top 10 RHPs that didn't even include Ryan?

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/page/mlbrank_top100righthandedpitchers/ranking-top-10-right-handed-pitchers-ever

They ranked him #50 overall, right after Feller and Lefty Grove which put him as the #11 RHP and the #17 overall starting pitcher.

Nolan Ryan was the strikeout king, but not many ardent fans of baseball outside of Texas are going to include him in their top 5's.

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Damn, have to admit, you got me. Nice troll.

You just posted a link that says Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez were far better pitchers than Nolan Ryan...

Please list 20 pitchers that were better than Nolan Ryan post WWII. Ryan isn't the greatest, but he is top 5 without question.

Oh, and your whip argument. Strasburg and Bumgarner are both 20th all time and Chris Sale is in the top 5. Who knew we've been watching living legends on the mound for the past 5+ years.

Wins and losses in regards to a pitchers' legacy does not hold much water in my opinion. Give up 15 runs and your team scores 16, you win. Give up 1 run and your team doesn't score at all, and you lose. There are much better statistics in baseball to measure a pitcher's success than wins and losses.

Fuzzy Dunlop said:

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Quote:

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Losses:

292 - 3rd all time

Winning Percentage:

.526 - not in the top 100 all time

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One thing you have to remember about these numbers is that he didn't get a lot of run support during his days with the Angels. He lost quite a few games in his prime by scores of 1-0 or 2-1, etc. He did his part but his offense didn't offer much support.

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To your point, take 1972.

39 GS, 19Ws, 16Ls, 284.0 IP, 329 SO. He had 9 Shutouts (one was a 12.0 IP SHO) and went 10.4 SO9. 2.10 SO/W.

His 17 Loses:
1-2 (1 ER)
0-1 (0 ER)
0-1
3-4
1-2
0-2 (0 ER)
0-2
0-2 (1 ER)
0-3 (2 ER)
1-4
3-6 (5 ER)
2-5 (4 ER)
3-7
1-5
4-8 (3 ER) <- He didn't take the L in this game which is the difference between 16 and 17 L listed
1-7
2-12 (4 ER)

In his 17 Loses, he gave up 2 or fewer ERs in 8 of them.

Quote:

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Those "contemporaries" you mentioned all played before WWII.

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Don't be obtuse. The poster above is correct. I was referencing Tom Seaver, who played when I was a younger guy in the late 1960s through the 1980s. They weren't just contemporaries, they started their careers together with the New York Mets.

And he ended up with a WAR about 30 games higher than Nolan, an ERA .30 below Nolan's, he was able to go deeper into games across the length of his career, has the better WHIP, etc. etc.

Could Nolan strike 'em out? You bet. Was he the complete pitcher a certain number of the other guys were? That's highly debatable outside the state of Texas.

Quote:

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Oh, and your whip argument. Strasburg and Bumgarner are both 20th all time and Chris Sale is in the top 5. Who knew we've been watching living legends on the mound for the past 5+ years.

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Ah. So narrowing in on a particular stat just doesn't do it for you with this those guys, huh?

p.s. It's a joke. Lighten' up. But think about it for a second, too.

You've edited your post, but you implied more than one "contemporary".

Either way, I'm still waiting to see a list of 5 pitchers (post WWII) who have had a better career (or however someone wants to define it) than Nolan Ryan.

Looks like Gomez is out again tonight win back issues. We really need him to stay healthy and in the lineup.

Just a cursory look at guys with long careers that had better ERA+ and more Cy Young awards:

Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Greg Maddux
Roger Clemens
Steve Carlton
Tom Seaver
Clayton Kershaw (not a long career yet)
Tom Glavine


Bert Blyleven and Mike Mussina have better ERA+ too over very long careers.

Ryan was only in the top 3 in Cy Young voting three times in his 27 years.

I said "A contemporary" and they're not "ALL" Pre-WW2.

But you could start with this top 5 list and then we can talk about other folks not there such as Pedro. https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1714168-the-5-all-time-greatest-mlb-pitchers.amp.html

Feller, Carlton, Johnson, Gibson, and Seaver. Not a bad go at it if you ask me.